New to shopbot

[lexluthier]

I am considering getting a shopbot. I build guitars and want to use it to 3D carve guitar necks and also plates shaped similar to cellos.
Is this machine the right choice for this type of work, or is it more suited for sign makers?
I've also been looking at the Shopsabre machines.
Any advise would be much appreciated.

[paco]

Sign makers sure find this tool usefull but you may find it of a great use too if you plan on doing repetitive parts or if you wishe to use CNC for special work (like repetitive carving)...
Had you been able to get as much feed back from other CNC tool users than as with ShopBot and this forum?!

[beacon14]

Mark,

The ShopBot is easily capable of carving guitar parts, and is already being used for that purpose by more than a few people. It's whether you can create the toolpaths you'll need that will determine whether or not it's right for you. If you are fluent in CAD (at least 2D, 3D would be better), then probably no problem, albeit with a learning curve. If you are not computer proficient, but only need a few styles cut repetitively, you can probably get someone to make the toolpaths you need to get started, and expand from there.
If you are not CAD fluent and expect to create many new, creative shapes, well that is certainly possible, but the learning curve will be even steeper and longer. I think this applies to any CNC machine.
So to answer your question (again), yes, this machine is "the right choice for this type of work"

[robtown]

Do yoy watch DYI network? There is a show on called "handmade music", the Luthier on there has a shopbot benchtop model.

I've never actually been in the presence of a ShopSabre, but unless it's half the price of a Bot, or unless the thing jumps off of the table helps with glue-ups and makes coffee for you, the Bot is by far the better value.

[paco]

Did you notice thoses links from the ShopBot tools WWW site; http://www.shopbottools.com/beforeyoubuy.htm and http://www.shopbottools.com/users.htm ?
Another ideas is to get your work done from a current Bot owner first (and maybe visit)... by then, you could make yourself a more thought thru idea of all what should be considered.
By the way Mark, you sure have fine guitar on your WWW site! I like your main page concept too!

[artisan]

Mark....You may want to contact the folks at Pegheds.com. They do custom violin and cello work and they use a shopbot. They could possibly shed some light on things for you....D

[lexluthier]

Thank you all for your kind help and advice. I am convinced and will hopefully soon become a Shopbot user.

[wilson877j@hotmail.com]

Rob says.....
I've never actually been in the presence of a ShopSabre, but unless it's half the price of a Bot, or unless the thing jumps off of the table helps with glue-ups and makes coffee for you, the Bot is by far the better value.
Before the introduction of the Alpha the benchtop price was less than $5000. In 9 days, the price will rise to over $7000.
The shopsabre at under $7000 has a work table more than twice the size (in area) of the benchtop, THK linear rail ball drive, comes ready assembled after at least 4 hours testing.
I am going to buy a CNC machine in the spring,(was going to buy in the fall but left things to late). Convince me with practical facts why I should buy the Shopbot, and not the Shopsabre.
I have applied for registration on this forum, but have yet to receive my authorization (how long should this take?)
I am not hiding in anonymity.
John Wilson
wilson877j@hotmail.com (mailto:wilson877j@hotmail.com)

[john_r]

I've got a few good rea$on$
$hop $abre is 6995.00 Base price
If you want to be as fast and accurate as the ShopBot add a Servo system for just 2995.00 If you want to mount a router add 250.00 for the bracket?, if you want to collect the dust add dust skirt 250.00 If you don't want to work on the floor add the pedastal 895.00 Oh add a router 300.00 minimum for PC 3.25HP Whoops just saw they want 250.00 for a special G code activated on off switch. Grand Total $11935.00 Did you also see they offer a SPECIAL keyboard tray 195.00 may as well get that too if were talking bells and whistles...ding...ding...woo..woo! $12130 that is Awesome...This thing better make more than Coffee. This thing better load and unload itself and answer the phone.

Shopbot Base Price 6295.00
Steel Table 895.00
Router 300.00
Cut your own SPECIAL keyboard Tray Free (SB workstation) plus 20.00 sheet of MDF
ShopBot User Forum PRICELESS!!!!

Grand Total $7510.00 including Workstation.
Also, how long did it take to get registered on ShopSabres User Forum? Oh, they don't have one.


ShopSabre ---$12130
ShopBot ---$7510
Practical ---$4620 in your pocket

Just my 2 cents. By the way I don't work for them just a happy customer of one their older models.
Also their tech support is outstanding. I bought my tool used it's 6 years old and they still treat me like I bought a new machine 2 days ago.

John

[wilson877j@hotmail.com]

John
I was hoping for a more technical comparison.
I am a fan of this forum, although this is my first contribution.
John says....If you want to be as fast and accurate as the ShopBot add a Servo system for just 2995.00
I recognize one thing from the start. The Alpha shopbot is faster than the basic Shopsabre, but what if I don't need this speed?
Is there any practical difference in claimed accuracy in only 0.0005" (about 1/100 of a mm)?
I don't think either machine justifies the purchase of a special table. With a cnc machine, you can definitely make an accurate one for yourself.
If you can make a workstation for the Shopbot, you can make one for the Shopsabre.
Both machines require a router, so they cancel each other out.
And John forgot to recognize the price increase to over $7000 dollars in 8 days.
So with the Shopsabre in fact, you are still getting a machine with over double the work area for approximately the same price as the benchtop, with effectively the same accuracy, but without the turbo speed of the Alpha.
Shopsabre offer free Rams 3D High quality G-code generator a $900.00 value.
In an article in April of this year, Ted Hall said, "The under-$10,000 professional market has been our bread and butter," Hall says. "Our price is still a fraction of what the competition's is."
This no longer holds true. We are looking at a price increase of over 40% in 6 months.
So what will be the manufacturing benefits for a very small shop who doesn’t need turbo speed be by buying a machine less than half the size of a similar priced machine.
I know you all love your Shopbots. Can you justify that love technically?
I have no connection with any CNC machine manufacturer.
I had never heard of Shopsabre before this thread started.
John Wilson
wilson877j@hotmail.com (mailto:wilson877j@hotmail.com)

[fleinbach]

Jay,


I couldn't have said it better myself.

Off course I have never seen a Shopsabre so I can't say whether it's good or bad. But from a price standpoint I compared it to my Prtalpha 120 (They don't offer a 10' table so I used the price between the 8' and 12' model) and found a difference in price of $4,335.00 , even after factoring in the price increase in 8 days. That means the Shopsabre is 40% higher then the Shopbot.

Since the Shopbot does such an excellent job, I'm not sure how paying 40% more can improve on that.

[robtown]

Maybe you should be shopping used PRT's

Really though, this user forum is what truly tips the balance. Are you technically proficient? Can ShopSabre point you to someone in your area who can show you thier machine in a real production environment? Does ShopSabre have multiple camps in various geographical areas every year?

Again, the new Alpha machines compare favorably to any in it's class out there, but it's what happens after you buy that truly makes the BOT a better choice.

I don't know what you want your machine for, but here are some examples of what I do with mine:
www.robtown.com/portfolio (http://www.robtown.com/portfolio)

[John D Wilson (Unregistered Guest)]

Rob
If anyone knows ANYONE who wants to sell a used Benchtop, I'm your man.
If I had bought my Shopbot at pre Alpha price, I would be a very happy man.
But a 40% + increase makes me think again.
Although I agree this forum is worth any sort of money, it's not exclusively for Shopbot owners, and the greater percentage of advice offered is directed to CNC routing, not the Shopbot itself.
And by the way, Shopsabre are introducing a forum.
Many threads on this forum point out that CAD skills and correct machine operating are vital to produce good work.Is either machine better in this aspect?
I am specifically comparing the Benchtop to the 3636 Shopsabre, where the prices (with Novembers increase), will be very similar.
I am acting as Devils Advocate in this.
Nobody is coming up with technical reasons why the shopbot benchtop is better than the shop sabre 3636 (apart from the agreed faster speed).
I recognise where your heart is, but is there a Shopbot owner able to argue hard technical facts?
In my heart, I want you to argue that the Benchtop is the right choice, but my partner is unconvinced.

John D.

[robtown]

Patience will net you a used PRT at a good price, watch this board and Ebay, one will pop up.

It's hard to argue from a purely technical POV as specs are similar and somewhat subjective based on who's writing them. If your business plan is such that you must justify every extra expense with a superior spec, so be it. But's that's a shortsighted way to go about things as there's always a larger picture.

What I can say with great certainty is this:

ShopSabre very well may be implementing a user Forum, good for them as I suggested it to them a year and a half ago. Better late than never, but it's got some serious catch-up to do in terms of maturing into a useful support entity.

The ShopBot is a proven machine in a production environment. I could take 7 iron in any direction and just about hit a business with a Bot in my area here outside atlanta, I don't know of the first person who owns a Sabre in this area.

As such, no matter what software you end up with, there is probably already a ShopBot post available for it.

I've never had to use Bot's support, but I understand it's responsive and personal, haven't heard too many complaints about it.

Sit on hold with KOMO for two hours and curse the day that you bought that 250,000.00 machine (as I did quite often at my last job), what is your time worth per hour?

You should also try to get to know some of the principals at ShopBot, the same crew that developed, and began selling this machine (out of a barn, no less...) are still together and very active in the company and the larger ShopBot community, they are accessible and some of them actively contribute here at the forum, including the founder/inventor of the machine. This speaks volumes about them, as a company, to me.

There's a lot more to consider than IPS or IPM, repeatability, and tolerances.
Again, find a ShopSabre and a ShopBot in your area, and go see them action before you do anything...

[elcruisr]

John,
I'd advise you to think way past the initial purchase. I faced a similar decision as yours several years ago and looked at Shopsabre, Shopbot, Larken, Tchno Isel and many others. One thing really tipped the scales and that was post purchase service reputation.
When asking one individual about service for the Shopsabre the comment ran along the line of "What service? I'm amazed they are still around" A shop here in town just bought one and I'm told the packaging was so poor that several of the parts had to be replaced because they where bent.
I know you don't think you need the speed in your business and neither did I at first. I now need every bit of that speed that my Alphe upgrade gives because I cut for so many people it has become around 60% of my business and we barely keep up!
As to ballscrew vs rack and pinion the answer is not as east as many think. On high end machines they need them for their blazing speed. I think CR Onsrud is now pushing over 3,000 in/min. However, ballscrews do not like dust and these macines go to elaborate lengths to cover and shield them. Many operators tell me that cleaning them is still done routinely. They also need the right lube and constantly. The big machines have automatic lubricators.
The Shopsabre has open ballscrews and no lubricators, so it will all be up to the operator to keep them constantly cleaned and lubed.
Many mid priced machines from companies like MultiCam use rack and pinion for some of their machines because at those speeds it's a better solution for the money.
Rack and pinion drives are pretty dust tolerant and only need a little grease now and then to be happy. I have actually worn out one set of pinion gears but then my machine has been known to run 18 hour shifts in the past for months at a time. Replacing a few pinions is pretty cheap compared to a worn out, dust clogged ballscrew. Also there are good ballscrews and then there are lousy ballscrews and plenty in between.
Let's say you opt for the servo drives at some point. Are you ready to pay a tech to come out and retune those servos every so often? Most operators don't realise it but ALL servo's do require periodic maintenance, the salesman sure don't bring it up either. Closed loop steppers as those on the Alpha require no periodic tuning or maintenance.
Shopbot also has a demo program. If you contact them they will steer you to the nearest owner willing to do a demo for you for free. Before you buy anything make sure you see it run and what it takes to go from drawing to finished parts.

Eric

[John D Wilson (Unregistered Guest)]

Thank you Ron and Eric for considered input.
Its this type of thoughtful response I was looking for.
On lower end machines like the Benchtop and shopsabre, is there any performance enhancement with ballscrews?
what about the criticisms with X and Y tracks riding up off rails?
Apart from speed, is there any perfomance/reliability between the motors (an earlier post in a different thread suggested the alpha steppers were not yet proven)
Almost 100% of my CNC information comes from this Forum, and websites I've been directed to from here.
It would be naive to suggest owners hadn't had problems with shopbots.
Might it not be true that there are a large number of SB's around is because before June they represented great value for money
It's this 40% price hike that is giving me food for thought.
Oh! that somebody needs to get a benchtop Alpha, and will sell me there PRT!
I have been offered a Benchtop demo, though not through Shopbot.
John D.

[John D Wilson (Unregistered Guest)]

Rob
The photos you directed me to look great, I hope my production will be of such a high standard.
But are you suggesting that this could only be made by a Shopbot, and Not on a Shopsabre?
I am 100% convinced of the value to me of a CNC machine.
It's not CNC I need to be convinced of. It is this.
Is a Benchtop, over 40% more expensive than six months ago, still the same great value as they were in May 2004?
Where is that second hand Benchtop?
John D.

[robtown]

Thank you, but it's a tool and it does what I tell it to do, as would a shopsabre. I have no doubt I could accomplish the same quality regardless of the machine I used.

I've tried to get you to look beyond the stated specs per dollar value of the two machines.

Support and what happens AFTER the sale are huge factors to those who have been involved in taking a shop from handwork to CNC. Maybe not so much to those that have not been through it.

[John D Wilson (Unregistered Guest)]

Rob
To make clear what your saying, which I think I have only just realised.
You are saying that, install any machine, as a newcomer to the art, you are going to need a lot of hand-holding to get things running as you would like.
You are NOT saying the Shopbot needs special after sales service, but that the Shopbot after sales service is special?
John D.

[Brady Watson]

John,
Why are you looking at a BenchTop? Seems to me that a 4X4 or 4X8 would be a much better choice. You will quickly outgrow the BT and want a bigger machine. What happens if you need to carve a run of necks longer than 32" ? What if you want to carve a special case for a custom guitar? You can index it...but that gets old...especially in production mode.

"...because before June they represented great value for money " ShopBots still DO represent a great VALUE. Think of it as comparing a V6 Camaro to a DOHC V8 Mustang with a Supercharger on it (PRTAlpha) for the same price. They both will get you from point A to point B. One will do it a bit faster, and you have a bunch of hotrod friends (us) to talk to if you can't figure something out (secondary to SB support).

It's a matter of prefference. I bought my 2 PRTs 2 yrs ago from SB because of this forum...plus the SB was better, cheaper and faster than the other machines I was looking at. I also bought because I have several people within a 50 mile radius of me who run SBs in their business...and ALL of them are glad to help.

Any old-timer will tell you, when it comes to your business, BUY THE BEST. It is not a place to split hairs...especially over a tool that only costs $10k.

-Brady

[robtown]

Hey John,
Yes that is what I am trying to say, if only I could've made it that clear...

The problems that arise after the machine is installed are usually 99% self-inflicted, good follow-up and support are imperative for a smooth transition.

But, again I would strongly urge you to seek out owners of both machines and try to get a look at each one in a true production environment.

[John D Wilson (Unregistered Guest)]

Thanks Brady.
It was Mark, who began this thread who makes Guitars.
My pieces can sit 3 up on a Benchtop, 5 up on a Shopsabre.
I understand why you are a pleased with your purchases two years ago, they were 40% + cheaper!
I have many reasons for wanting a Shopbot, gleaned from this forum. I am very pro the Shopbot.
If I could find a 1 year old benchtop in A1 order, I would gladly pay last years full price for it.
Make no mistake I WANT A SHOPBOT.
The point of my dialogue is, could I convince a bank manager about this? (I don't need to go to the bank, I have the money(hence the wait!))
Wouldnt he say "Twice the size for the same money?"
Everybody is telling me how great they find ShopBot, both the machine and the people, but real hard details are still not really forthcoming.
Find me a used Benchtop folks. Make me one of you.
......John D

[beacon14]

John,

I know it's hard to swallow that you could have bought (almost) the same machine 6 months ago and saved some real money, but you didn't. You are now faced with the financial reality of todays prices, but you are letting the lost opportunity color your emotional outlook. Either the machine will pay for itself in increased output, higher efficiency, expanded design abilities, etc. or it won't.

I think you will be hard pressed to find someone on this forum or elsewhere who can give you an objective comparison between the two machines because the vast majority of forum participants have no direct experience with the ShopSabre. You did get some good feedback about the comparisons you were looking for, and the pricing. You now have to do your homework and decide what's right for you. I think the users of this forum are unanimous that the ShopBot will do the work you intend to do with it, will do so admirably, and will last long enough to make it a sound investment. The ShopSabre may or may not as well. You have already shared with us one ShopSabre owner's feedback. If you still think that machine may be a better fit for you, I suggest you get names of at least 3 more ShopSabre owners (if they can't give you names of 3 more owners to talk to, that would tell me something) and call them for their views.

Then make up your mind based on your actual cost. It is irrelevent that you could have bought it for less last year.
If you can't justify the price of a new tool, used ones are available if you look around and can wait for the right one to come on the market.

My 2cents

David B.

[Brady Watson]

If it isn't sold yet, Here's One (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/4810.html?1097026848)

-Brady

[gerald_d]

The ShopSabre is technically interesting from info on their website. Some of my early questions would be:
1. Do they have x-drives on both ends of the y-gantry?
2. What is the stepper motor "power" - how much thrust/cutting force can they generate. Who makes the motors? Are they standard from their catalog?
3. What rollers/rails do they use, how straight are they from the factory, and how much do they deflect with a 50 pound load on the middle of the gantry. (The ballscrews (are there 3 or 4?) do not appeal to me)
4. Are the stepper drivers/controllers standard items from an established supplier? Who? Part no.?
5. What stops cars and gantries from lifting off the rails?
6. Are shielded/grounded cables with good joints being used.
7. Can arcs be interpolated in the vertical plane?

I wouldn't consider a lack of a Forum to count against ShopSabre - forums are not a novelty and they will pop up all over the show (example (http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/cnc.pl?read=350738)). If they use tried and tested rails, rollers, steppers, drivers and controllers out of a standard catalogue from a reputable supplier, they will have my interest.

[fleinbach]

John, you state

"I am specifically comparing the Benchtop to the 3636 Shopsabre, where the prices (with Novembers increase), will be very similar."

When I compare Bench top to Bench top running at the same speeds there is a $2,745.00 price difference, the Shopsabre being 40% higher in cost.

As Dave says above, forget about how much more the Shopbot costs then it did several months ago. The past is gone. In my business as a contractor everything has increased from 5 to 30% in the past year and not one of these increases included an improvement. Everything that increased is exactly the same product it has been for years. That is everything but the Shopbot. It increased mostly due to an improvement.

I nearly made the same mistake you are when I finally decided to purchase a shopbot last year. A friend of mine had one since 1999. He paid around $3,800.00 I was ready to purchase 3 years later but when I found out the price had gone up to $6,200.00 I hesitated. But after some thought I decided to purchase anyway. I have never regretted that decision for one minuet. In fact in less then 9 months I sold it and purchased a larger Prtalpha.

The only regret I have is that I waited 3 years to make the decision.

[John D Wilson (Unregistered Guest)]

I said in an earlier message "I recognize one thing from the start. The Alpha shopbot is faster than the basic Shopsabre, but what if I don't need this speed?"
So we are comparing unlike,- the slower Shopsabre speed against the Benchtop Alpha,- and a work area twice the size on the 3636 compared to the benchtop.
The money, around $7000, is the price I'm going to have to pay for MY machine (unless the machine advertised early October is still for sale), whichever one I purchase.
So we are comparing apples with pears.
Gerald, what you seem to be saying is this, if the parts come from reputable suppliers, it is likely that the quality may be to the same standard as the Shopbot.
Three things they say on their web site, which I do not understand are:-
1. "TRUE helical interpolation- ask us to explain, there is a big difference in what our competitors offer"
2. The Microsystems cnc Controller is a truly industrial controller is used on machines costing $75,000 and up
3.TRUE arc motion. Arcs are not interpolated into line segments, get the smoothest cuts (unlike lesser quality CNC)
Does this answer any of your specific points?
I did notice the machines come fitted with those chain wire guides, which were fully discussed in another thread.
..John D

[gerald_d]

This quest for speed also escapes me, and I also am not happy to pay more for more speed. Same reason that I don't drive a Ferrari today. My priority is solid support and spares availability, preferably direct from the original supplier of the components, and preferably using components that are older proven technology. This alpha stuff, specially tweaked for ShopBot, from a unique Oriental supplier, does not appeal to me at all....yet.

Microsystems CNC (http://www.msys.net/cnc/) used in a couple of other CNC systems (see column on left)

[richards]

If the price is holding you back, and you're good at engineering, why not build your own machine. Shopbot sells just the controller and stepper motors for that very purpose at a *very* attractive price. Contact Bishop-Wisecarver for V-bearing wheels and tracks, your local machine shop to build the basic machine, and design your own custom machine. It might take several months to get the design exactly right, but it will do exactly what you design it to do.

To some, that might be far fetched, but I'm considering doing just that to build a horizontal boring machine to complement my alpha 60-120. Most likely, it will cost as much as an alpha-96 machine, but there isn't much in the way of affordable CNC horizontal boring machines on the market that do what I need to have done. (Yes I do have a Delta horizontal boring machine, and yes I did build a custom table for it with an indexing system using jigs made on the shopbot, but, it takes more time to build the custom jigs for each job than it takes to drill the holes - and the Delta doesn't do tenons.)

As to the three points listed above:
1-True helical interpolation.
2-Microsystems cnc controller.
3-True arc motion

They might be pertectly true and important to some, but to me I'm more concerned with help from fellow cnc operators. What I've learned since July, when my alpha arrived, is that all that I had read and all that I thought I knew about using automated tools didn't even start to make my parts machine correctly. In a sense, I found myself tryng to push a string along a path that I wanted it to go when the string always wanted to take the path of lease resistance. What I'm trying to say is that having a good quality machine is important, but knowing how the material cuts, knowing the characteristics of the cutter, and knowing how to get the correct feed speed and router speed are even more important. Which means, at least to me, that the resources on this forum are as important, and perhaps more important, than the machine itself.

Mike

[John D Wilson (Unregistered Guest)]

Gerald
You have pointed out a way to make comparisons.
It was this type of information I was seeking.
I have read the earlier posts about the Alpha, and take on board what you are saying. Hence my real desire for a used Benchtop ( the one mentioned above sold instantly, apparently). I repeat my offer of the full price paid if anyone has a perfect condition one for sale.
Mark, it isn't the actual dollars that is my concern, this $7000 is already in the figures, and the numbers crunch well.
Making one isn't an option for me. I'm a wood man,not metal, and much more an artist/craftsman than I am an engineer.
Forget the dollars.
If you were offered for free an Alpha Benchtop or a Shopsabre 3636, why would you choose one against the other if the speed difference is not an issue
It is true this Forum is priceless, but the information is freely available to all, wether you have bought a Shopbot or not.
What Mike says above in the last paragraph suggests any machine can produce rubbish if used incorrectly.
Let me repeat again, I want a Shopbot. It has just occured to me that any used PRT at $7000 would be a bargain.
So I change my plea.
Anyone got a PRT in real good working condition for $7000?
.....John D

[fleinbach]

John, this post is long and contains a lot of information so excuss me if I'm not understanding exactly what you want. I'm trying to understand why you don't just buy a new Prtalpha before the price increase since you decided on the shopbot. I believe you said you wanted the benchtop. If so according to my calculations a brand new Prtalpha Benchtop with stand and 3 1/2 HP router costs $7,095.00 That's only $95.00 over what you are willing to pay for a used Prt. As a bonus you get the ability to work at higher speeds. You certainly don't have too, but at least the reserve is there if you ever need it. Plus you gain the closed loop drive system giving you less chance for losing steps. But I must admit while I had my Prt I never experianced any noticable loss of steps.

It just seems from what you say you are willing to pay for a used Shopbot you can purchase a new improved one for nearly the same price.

[robtown]

Why don't you try a different tact, and try to get some ShopSabre owners to convince you that it's the machine you need?

Frank makes an excellent point. If this price increase is vexing you so, and you have the money in your pocket, why don't you just pull the trigger? You've got until next Sunday to make up your mind. Probably until Friday to actually place the order.

There's really not much more to hash out here on this thread, everything you need to make an informed decision on a BOT lives in the messages above. You seem to be unswayed and stuck on this whole table area per dollar issue, maybe that IS the bottom line for you. If this is what matters most to you, then by all means it's your decision to make..., make it.

Last thought... have you checked resale value on the two machines. A man with your line of reasoning should put resale up there on the list of priorities.

[John D Wilson (Unregistered Guest)]

Frank
It is a long post, and to a certain extent I've been a bit naughty.
I've kept it going to try and find out what the variables in buying a CNC machine are.
Reading the hundreds, nay, thousands of posts in this forum, the overiding message that gets through is the passion Shopbot owners feel about there machines. It is clear that many, many small businesses have developed and grown with a shopbot.
12 months ago there was no question what to buy. The Shopbot was outstanding for the dollar.
It is a pity that they have lost this enormous advantage.
Someone, I don't recall who, often ends his messages with "If it aint broken then don't fix it"
Maybe this is what happened with the introduction of the Alpha and dropping the original line of machines. It's a pity Shopbot didn't leave consumers with the choice of different types of machine.
Shopbot is, of course, a business, and are perfectly entitled to make those business decisions which will be best for their bottom line. A decision we all make.
What I was saying is, I'm willing to pay $4800 for a nearly new Bechtop PRT, a considerable saving.
Ron
Shopsabre website contains endorsement of their products. How much weight to put on these, who knows.
The order may well be placed before the deadline.
But if anyone feels a little irked (and the tone of some of the messages does show a little tetchiness) ask yourselves why.
I have repeated throughout my overall admiration of what Shopbot have produced over the years. What is wrong with questioning the situation they have now arrived at?
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my queries, it has certainly forced me to think my way through the decision making process. I admit swaying first one way, then the other.
A bit like the election, blue just edging grey, with everything depending on Ohio!
John D.

[robtown]

My Grandma always said I seemed a little "tetched in the head" (southern humor, febble attempt anyway).

It was obvious you were kind if stoking a bit there at the end.

There is nothing wrong at all with questioning or otherwise being fastidious. You were given, in my opinion, all the facts you sought, but continued to ask the same questions. There were statements to the machine, technical specs were given, and the service and support after the sale were highly endorsed, all from very different entities whose only common thread was their ownership.., nay fellowship in that which we call the Bot. Let us all climb to the highest hill and prclaim loudly Hallelujah ShopBot!!!!!

er..., uh..., I digress...

Anyhoo, good luck in your decision, and your endevours, let us know if we can be of any further assistance in your new vocation.

R

[richards]

John,

Before I buy a piece of production equipment, I run a break-even analysis on it. It's a very simple process that basically tells me how many gizmos I need to make each hour to make the operation work. At the price the Alpha sells for, its price is hardly even part of the equation.

For example, running cabinet case parts takes about ten minutes per sheet - including the shelf-pin holes. Factoring in a couple of breaks during the day, time for lunch, some inefficiency as the muscles stiffen towards late afternoon, etc, and you still have over 40 sheets of material in your finished stack at the end of the day. If those sheets are Melamine-Coated-Particle-Board, you've run through $900 of material. In that same time you've used up about $100 worth of cutters, $10 worth of electricity, $50 worth of shop space, $125 worth of payroll for one helper, $15 worth of telephone and $50 worth of Shopbot (assuming you spend $12,000 on an Alpha and depreciate it over a single year). So, total costs are $1,250 for the day. The customer pays $900 for the material, $100 for the cutters and $500 - $800 for eight-hours CNC time (I normally charge $100 per hour cutting time and $45 per hour for general shop time. At the end of the day I total up the log times for parts cut, multiply that by $100 per hour, subtract those hours from the production day and mutiply the difference by $45).

At the end of the day you're ahead by a significant amount. Do that twenty-two days a month and you've made a living using one machne that thinks it's a machine costing ten times as much.

Now, if you make things that are truely unique, where every Tom, Dick and Harry that owns a circular saw hasn't decided to label himself as a master craftsman, you'll do even better.

In any case, a machine that is only on display is not going to pay its keep. But, if you use the machine, it will generate enough revenue to earn its keep and yours too.

Mike

[John D Wilson (Unregistered Guest)]

Rob
What is really strange is this affinity to a machine.
Nobody gives a monkeys about their bandsaw, jointer, tablesaw, pillar drill, I know I don't. They are just tools.
The Shopbot must really be something special!
Lets hope I will feel the same about mine!

Thanks
John D.

[richards]

John,

Before I buy a piece of production equipment, I run a break-even analysis on it. It's a very simple process that basically tells me how many gizmos I need to make each hour to make the operation work. At the price the Alpha sells for, its price is hardly even part of the equation.

For example, running cabinet case parts takes about ten minutes per sheet - including the shelf-pin holes. Factoring in a couple of breaks during the day, time for lunch, some inefficiency as the muscles stiffen towards late afternoon, etc, and you still have over 40 sheets of material in your finished stack at the end of the day. If those sheets are Melamine-Coated-Particle-Board, you've run through $900 of material. In that same time you've used up about $100 worth of cutters, $10 worth of electricity, $50 worth of shop space, $125 worth of payroll for one helper, $15 worth of telephone and $50 worth of Shopbot (assuming you spend $12,000 on an Alpha and depreciate it over a single year). So, total costs are $1,250 for the day.

The customer pays $900 for the material, $100 for the cutters and $500 - $800 for eight-hours CNC time (I normally charge $100 per hour cutting time and $45 per hour for general shop time. At the end of the day I total up the log times for parts cut, multiply that by $100 per hour, subtract those hours from the production day and mutiply the difference by $45).

At the end of the day you're ahead by a significant amount. Do that twenty-two days a month and you've made a living using one machne that thinks it's a machine costing ten times as much.

Now, if you make things that are truely unique, where every Tom, Dick and Harry that owns a circular saw hasn't decided to label himself as a master craftsman, you'll do even better.

In any case, a machine that is only on display is not going to pay its keep. But, if you use the machine, it will generate enough revenue to earn its keep and yours too.

Now, to the subject at hand, which is: "Why buy a Shopbot instead of another brand?" That is a question that only you can answer. For me, it was simple. I looked at the machine and counted all the proprietary parts that could only be purchased from Shopbot. I came up with one part - the controller board. The Dual-V wheels are made by Bishop-Wisecarver. The rack and pinion gears are available from a variety of suppliers. The stepper motors are made by Oriental (a company that I've been using for over 10-years in another business. Oriental is also the company that I *always* choose for stepper motors. They cost more, but they're worth it.) The computer can be almost anything that runs Windows. The rails can be fabricated by any machine shop. So, if disaster strikes and I have to replace something in a hurry, would I be a risk buying a Shopbot? Only to the extent of needing a controller board. If that is really an issue, it can be solved by having a spare board on hand.

For me, the question would be whether to buy a used PRT or a new Alpha. I would choose the Alpha. Even if cutting speeds were exactly the same (and they will be in many cases), the jog speed of the Alpha, 30 ips, against 3.5-ips for the PRT can make a significant difference. That's the main reason that I can charge $100 per hour for the Alpha's cutting time - it's always cutting with little wasted time. By the way, doing a spread sheet of cutting times on the Alpha at $100 per hour compared to the cutting times on a PRT at $60 per hour, the cost to the customer was less with the Alpha than it would have been with the PRT. It was simply a case of more parts per hour.

Bottom line. Could you ever buy any other tool that costs $6.00 per hour to amortize over a twelve month period that could easily generate $100,000 per year in gross profits?

Mike

[richards]

Sorry for the double post. Our trucks were hit by burgulars last night and I must have hit the *post* message key on one of the trips to talk with the police.

By the way, it was almost nice to get a knock on the door early in the morning with a policeman apologizing for knocking at 4:30 a.m. but saying that he needed me to check my trucks, which had been broken into, to see if all everything had been recoved from the suspect, who they had in handcuffs.

At any rate, I started the post after checking the trucks, must have hit the wrong key when the police needed me again, and then finished the post after they left.

Mike

[John D Wilson (Unregistered Guest)]

Mike
I think your last message shows the true spirit of Shopbotters. To bother to assist a stranger when faced with such early morning alarms shows a true strength of spirit.
I sincerely hope you lost nothing ( and that the handcuffs were on real tight!)
Back to your main message, and to an earlier post of mine, the figures add up well.
Your point (similar to Geralds) that buying the parts from the catalogue makes good sense.
Thanks again
John D

[fleinbach]

Mike,
They have theives in Utah? I thought the middle of the country was theif free. Quess I may as well stay on the east coast. Sorry to here that. I hope they didn't get anything.

[richards]

Frank,

We have to import theives. But a little excitement is sometimes worth the trouble.

The last recorded break-in was 1849. It seems like someone was in a hurry to get to the California Gold Rush and needed a few tools.

In my case, an alert neighbor caught everything on video. Nothing taken except a little peace of mind.

Mike

[lexluthier]

Hi all,
I started this thread with the object of trying to find out if a shopbot or shopsabre would be the better choice to buy for a guitar builder wanting to do 3D carved parts. i.e. carved plates like cellos and complex curves on guitar necks.
I have finally decided to go with the shopbot, mainly due to this forum. I called shopsabre to try and set up a demo from an existing owner and never got a call back. I also filled out their online form to request more information to be mailed to me and that never arrived. Shopsabre doesn't seem very eager to get orders and this leaves me with little faith in their customer or technical support.
My main reservation with the shopbot is their software. Why did they decide to use their own system instead of standard G-code? seeing as one has to convert it anyway.
Thanks to you all for your valuable imput.
Mark

[johndee@deescabinetry.com]

I also looked into a Shopsabre(also 4 other brands). I got one of the owners at Shopsabre, we talked about the machines for quite some time, and I was exspecting a quote and a small list of Cabinet Shop owners that use there machine,this is based on what they told me. Never heard another word from them. Turns out there very busy and I would quess they don't want or need any new business. When they treat you like this how are they going to be when you need parts, warranty work, questions about the machine. I've been there before with numerious other new woodworking machines , that once you bought them, the warranty was worthless,service and parts are no there,often there not even there after a year or two.I'm not saying that Shopsabre isn't a good machine,and once your into one they don't back it up,just how they deal with new customers is beyond me. I'm buying a used ShopBot PR96, and the reason is the people at ShopBot are fantasitic. Even though I dropped my desire to buy a new machine this year, they still spent time with me over the phone answering questions( maybe 6 times). When I'm ready for a new machine in a year or so. I will go with ShopBot they got my vote.

[paco]

It take me about a month to receive my quote to ShopSabre when I asked as looking for a CNC router tool... once a rep. called me to talk about it, the first very question he asked is "HOW MUCH ARE YOU WILLING TO SPEND ON A TOOL?" Once I answered, the talking end quite fast and never receive back a call nor e-mail... the other fabricants acted about the same or their tools were off my budget. I believe ALL Shopbot tools are good tool (PR,PRT, PRT Alpha...) and the softwares provides with are too (or improved quite fast...) and the support is even better and "field spread" (meaning; they will help you sure with the tool and the softwares... but with many other aspects!!! Excuse my english writing if something appear odd!)
More; I got support and MANY answers about a year before purchase!!! Demo CD, e-mail info., forum, Web site documents... I just don't got the tool for free!!!

[beacon14]

Mark,

I don't work for ShopBot, so my answer to your question is far from official, but I believe the thinking was that G-code is difficult to understand for all but the most mathematically inclined minds, and they wanted a simple user interface so that their market wouldn't be limited to computer whizzes.

Maybe this is a question that someone from ShopBot would be willing to enlighten all of us on.

I do find the ShopBot software is easy to use and understand, even if it has a few quirks that take getting used to. Once you are used to the format, it's fairly simple to scan a file in edit mode and understand what each line does, and make changes if needed.

Good luck with your new machine, and if any questions come up (if?!) we're here for you.

David B.

[richards]

Anoher reason that G-Code is not used is that many of the code numbers do not apply to a CNC router, particularly one running a Porter-Cable router head (or any other router one whose speed cannot be changed via a G-Code instruction). It is fairly easy to write something with G-Code that either will not work, or may do something that was not desired.

A filter database could be included that filtered out any unusable G-Code, but that would take constant maintenance.

Having Shopbot's program instruction set that performs all possible moves on the Shopbot seems like a good idea to me.

[ted]

On the question of G-Code vs ShopBot Part File code. I thought I'd try and say something briefly about this one ... and hope that I don't get too longwinded.

First, I would just mention that there is actually very little difference between G-Code and ShopBot Part File code. Essentially, they are each just a list of the coordinates that the tool moves through during cutting. Thus, there is actually not that much involved in making the conversion.

But historically, the story goes like this. About 10 years ago when we were getting started with ShopBot we were trying to design a user interface that worked intuitively and was easy to remember from one session to the next. We wanted the user to be able to use simple commands from the keyboard to move the tool around, and it made sense to use these same commands inside the Part Files. At that time, we took as our model the interface to AutoCAD and GenericCAD and other design programs that used a two keystroke command sequence to enter commands, with the keys being reminders of the command (they also access a command menu structure to help prompt you). So for ShopBot, that meant that to 'm'ove in the 'X' axis we would use a command like [MX], to 'j'og in the 'Y' axis a command like [JY], to make a 'm'ove in '3'D it would be [M3] and so on.

We pondered using G-code format for entry of instructions at the keyboard, but these seemed awkward and more complex than the instructions needed to be. Indeed, G-code was designed in an era when machine tools were controlled by punch tape and when the device receiving the instructions was considerably more primitive than today's PCs. Additionally, today's CAD/CAM approach to toolpath design is different than the manner in which early NC tools that depended on G & M codes were programmed. There is no special benefit of working with the older coding system, unless you happened to have spent years learning it.

Having decided on the two-keystroke commands as a way to work from the keyboard, it made sense to us to stick with the same format for Part Files. The 2-keystroke commands would be easy for users to read and work with if they needed to modify their Part Files, or if they wanted to write a file from scratch. Only one set of instructions and logic to learn, and this set having straightforward abbreviations. This logic was the primary reason for using the format that we do.

Additionally, we wanted our Part File language to be easily programmable. You can write a Part File for ShopBot using any ShopBot keyboard command, just as you would enter it at the keyboard (in fact, keyboard commands can be automatically recorded and turned into files). Too make the Part File language as open and flexible as possible, we wanted to add further programming capability to it. While G-code can be programmed to a degree, it is quite awkward and non-intuitive. We added to the ShopBot Part File languange many of the common programming functions from the BASIC programming language and this makes it very flexible and capable. Included are functions for working with variables, logic, and program branchcing and functions for reading and writing files and displaying information, etc. These functions are implemented in a manner that will be familiar to anyone with any kind of computer programming experience and will allow considerable custom control of our tools and interactions with them. Our goal is to make our software as open as possible in terms of being put to use for any kind of special or custom purpose in our customers shops. (We recently had a workshop before the Camp ShopBot in NJ at which we illustrated the functionality of programming within the ShopBot Part File language and the way in which ShopBot functions and capabilities can be accessed by outside software.)

These reasons are basically why we ended up with the ShopBot Part File language. There are a couple of additional relevant points to consider.

1. It only takes a couple of seconds to convert a G-code file to a ShopBot Part File with our included converter.
2. Probably more importantly, with today's CAM software, the post-processors for the program will usually create a ShopBot file just as easily as a G-code file. All the major CAM, cabinet design, and sign design software program will generate ShopBot Part Files.
3. G-code is not nearly as generic as one might wish. So, when you are generating G-code you will typically need the specific post-processor for a particular machine or type of machine anyway.

Well ... I have rambled on too much ... but in summary, we gave the nature of the Part File format a lot of thought and came up with what we thought would be the best approach for just about all our customers. The only potential problem might be in a shop that uses G-code to run some machines and also has a ShopBot. But even here, we've had lots of feedback indicating that the ease of use of the Part File format even by operators with little CNC experience (and the fact that it is readily generated from G-code at the tool) makes up for the inconvenince of managing different formats.

[paco]

Hey Ted! That's ALL the needed details I believe... I say THANKS YOU for joining in with such answers!
TED, TED, TED, TED, TED, TED....

[erik_f]

Maybe this thead is dead...but I own a PRT 96 and don't need the speed...but I think anyone that is buying a new machine should re-think, the I don't need the speed angle. I tell you I have done a couple of signs for some companies...they took me 6 hours each on the PRT...I'm guessing it would have taken 4 hour total on the Alpha.

[mnrite@yahoo.com]

Speed is more than time to me, I run a Big machine at work and follow this site because I am going to get a small router for myself. On the machine at work speed has more to do with quality of the cut and bit life than time. Some of our programs require
high speed to get the desired cut.

Thanks
Mike

[johnwilson]

So the rumoured price rise of 10% was wrong, it's only 6%.
As I had decided on the Shopbot, this makes things even better.
One thing I would mention regarding this thread, don't be too closed minded about anything in business today. If you haven't read this thread yet,do it now. I agree 100% with the sentiments expressed.
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=312&post=17106#POST17106
John D