Vapor lock

[chunkstyle]

Hi all,

I just finished running a small 3 sht job for some miscl. parts and a cabinet.
First sheet had 8 disks 5" in diameter. Sheet also had a counter top that needed a 2" diameter hole and a rectangular hole with a 1/16" rabbet on the outside edge for a wiring grommet and ventilation grill respectively.

Onion skin on the 5" diameter disks were not cut thru. Left all the disks with onion skin. Disks were also getting cut where there was a momentary pause at 4 points equally spaced around the circumference. 12,3,6,9 o-clock. Is this normal? Had some lomg parts with semicircle ends and the machine did the same pauses at the beginning and end of the circumference's.

Grommet hole was cut out by plunging the bit (.25" MC) into the center and moving out to the circumference and going all the way around. Did this for both passes so it seemed o.k. Didn't leave an onion skin, though. Just cut it out with two passes at the max depth of cut (.375").

Finally the vent grill hole with recess for the vent grill's flange.
Machine cut out the hole in two passes just like the grommet hole. It then made a series of tool paths to hog out the meat. Exciting few seconds trying to get the meat that was now freed from the previous tool paths, away from the bit that was knocking it around inside the hole.

Lastly, on the second sheet that was run, we had straight forward cabinet parts. A left and right side with hinge plate holes, some stretchers and a display panel. Everything was going fine and the onion skins were all cut from all the parts untill the display panel. It was the last part and the bit was just getting into the cut when the machine stopped functioning. I hit the space bar and nothing happened. Bit screaming away in the hole and a big angry STOP in the tool location panel. Finally just killed power to the machine and did a hard reboot on the computer. Started everything up again and pulled the spindle up and out of the hole. Toasted.

Same settings as I was using from an earlier run. Needed to get these two sheets milled to complete the job. First ten sheets had similiar odd shaped parts but went off without a hitch (well...more like different hitch's).

Any one experiencing this kind of erratic machining?

Thanks
Tim

[Brady Watson]

Restart & Check your PC. Make sure that nothing is running in the background - Typically a program looking for an update. This includes Windows Update. Turn all that stuff off. Also goto Add/Remove Programs and try to 'trim the fat' removing any program that is not essential to the PC and the ShopBot.

The Task Manager can help you to see what is running & help point you towards the culprit.

-B

[chunkstyle]

Thanks Brady,

I'll do that first thing in the morning and see if that solves it.

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...
Lets see if I can point you to where to check these items, as if your settings are as I guess, then you experienced normal cutting.

Part editor cuts, especially imported, dont use the cut thru setting, watch the postion on the console, it may go down only to zero. Did you import the vectors AND were they 4 90 degree arcs that make a circle. That start and stop is usually a CAD import.

The grommet hole looks like an interpolation. What is your max interpolation for that bit set at? 2.8 times the bit diameter should be the max. Make sure your skin settings are larger than those part sizes. parts smaller than the settings will have the skin left on.

The vent hole being turned to dust is the result of the pocket area (thru cuts) being set too large. set it smaller. All of this is explained in the video you just ordered! :D

As far as the wierd behavior goes, I too have experienced an almost identical occurance. Had to hit the breaker to kill the spindle. Burned a 1.5" black spot in the spoilboard before I got it all shut down.

Its getting scary with some of these newer "nuances". back "in the ol days" you just hit the spacebar and it all stopped. Most of the time the spindle even lifted. It always turned off. You usually lost position on the Z/A. Not any more. It seems you never know whats going to happen. You ALWAYS lose position. Seldom lifts the spindle. Occasionally doesnt stop spindle.

Maybe after one of the newbies get hurt they will believe that wierd stuff is happening. They dont believe me.

[chunkstyle]

Thanks Gary,

I'll check my settings as you suggested and see if that doesn't help.
The part editor cuts were done by importing dxf drawings into part editor and I did use the cut thru. The circles were created as a circle in cad. The long pieces that had the semi circles on the ends were circles that had been bisected.
Although I have always specified a cut thru depth in the past I did use the simple cut thru option. I will go back to what you are recommending.
There's a lot about this concept of e-cabs and SB's running together that doesn't feel ready for prime time. Anyone have parts where only 2/3's of the onion skin has been removed? I have and sent TWD the pictures to prove it. I've also got pictures of blind dado tenon cuts that did not get the shoulder cut on one of the four sides for drawer box bottoms. E-cab drawings were done with blind dado construction on all four sides of the box bottoms. I took pictures of the parts before I corrected them on the router table. These problems don't seem as though they could have been caused by incorrect settings. I will admit to using part editor quite heavily. No more than past cabinet files which would run off smoothly with a Thermwood.
I'd hate to think what would have happened if I had my back turned on the machine and the 'sit and spin' incident had occurred. All that vacuum air and a bit getting real hot real fast.....
Thankfully I have not trusted the machine, link or myself to work correctly and was still gawking while it was cutting.

Thanks for the help, it's always appreciated.

Tim

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...
I am not sure about your CAD program, but there may be an option to join all the segments prior to export. Maybe some of the more learned can chime in.

There does seem to be a few more "bugs" using the Link with V6 cabs. I had not noticed this until lately as I had a big job in FL that I designed in V5 and havent cut a much till the last couple weeks. I am trying to get these repeatable so I can report them.

Gawk at the console and look at the cut depth (Z) instead of the machine. Lots of info there. After a while you will get so you can spot problems before you remove the parts

[mike_greschuk]

Hello Tim,
If you made these in ecab and used the contour editor to make your circles or 3 point arcs i had some real problems with weird behavior and cut throughs. it showed in the code and so I sent it off to thermwood and they said it is a bug and might be corrected in the next link build
Mike

[ken_rychlik]

Tim,

On the skin not being cut off.... What is your cut through setting and does it happen all the time or just in the afternoon?

Gary,

I can somewhat understand sb not wanting to listen much to people using custom files, but when you have other people downloading the latest software and there machine blows past the proxy's banging the hard stops, there are "issues" with it.

[chunkstyle]

Good question Kenneth,

Why would the time of day matter? You thinking that it's a scheduled task on the computer maybe? Weird stuff happened last night at around 6 p.m.
I've had the machine cut oddly almost any time, though.
I've attached pictures of an earlier cutting session where I had some of the described onion skin hijinks going on. They were sent to TWD a few weeks back and I haven't heard anything about it from them since.

Thanks for the ideas, it's appreciated.

Tim

[ken_rychlik]

Tim, I sometimes have to increase my cut through depth in the afternoon as my spoilboard "shrinks" a little after running it all day. i don't think that is your ussue.

Based on your picture where it is pulling up and cutting shallower, it has to be something with the part editor cuts. You do have tabs turned off right? Thats a very large tab.:eek:

When I have parts like that to cut, I use V-carve. It is just faster than going through the trouble of trying to get a dxf into a part editor and make it work.

I draw them and cut them in the same place and before you have your dxf drawn and try to import it, I would be cutting.

If you have not heard back from thermwood, I would call them.

If you send me your dxf that you used, I will look at it. i am wondering what the nodes look like. Sometimes ecabs is picky about what it likes in the dxf. Thats the main reason I go back to v carve.

So Gary, In your "opinion" what was the latest stable version of sb3?

[chunkstyle]

Thanks Ken,

As far as dxf's being imported into part editor, i and the Thermwood shop have had really good results with it. Taking a part into the contour editor and loading the dxf drawing on the part is very easy, once you get the hang of the x axis being rotated to vertical instead of horizontal. Dxf drawings must be drawn this way in cad as well. This has proven to be very effective for me. I tend to create client folders and store sub folders inside such as DXF Templates, pictures, shop drawings, TWD,s, Job files, etc...
Drawing with two monitors allows me to have both e-cabs and a cad program running at the same time. If there is a correction needed to the DXF, to work right in e-cabs, I just make the correction to the DXF drawing in cad and hit the save button. Reload it to the part editor and BAMMO. Very quick and easy and all the parts are still in the job file. Having cad and E-cabs running at the same time has really opened things up for "sculpting" cabinets. Likewise, the better hardware companies are loading their DXF's onto the web. Makes it real easy to bring into part editor. Just wish that TWD would allow this import feature in the hole pattern editor. Maybe they do and I don't know how to do it yet. This may not be as helpful for other shops, though. Just one way of working.

Thanks for the spoillboard/ running time heads up. I'm finally getting good fits with my blind dado's. Got schooled by Gary on the poor stability of uldf and auditing parts off the table.

Thanks,
Tim

[chunkstyle]

Kenneth,

Thought about your advice on running times and cut thru's. I checked the table clearance with the drill rod in the spindle and a feeler gauge. Looks like my table had shrunk a few thou. Pretty consistent over the whole table. Wound up just setting the table height a few thousandth's lower and rechecked. Much nicer fit with the feeler gauge. Thanks for the advice.

Brady,
I turned off the automatic update setting in the properties area of the computer. What I'm finding is that the INI file keeps getting corrupted and I have to delete it (as recommended by SB) and restart SB control. The intervals between doing this keep getting shorter and shorter. Not giving me a warm and fuzzy to run large TWD files.

Gary,
Spoke with Daniell at TWD about a crazy link file generated for a cabinet that had DXF pocket cuts. The Link file was calling up a .25" M.C. bit to perform a drilling operation for a 5mm hole with a concentric 7/16" countersink hole. He sorted out some of the problems with the pocket cuts being made from DXF's. He had me save the boundaries of the dxf in countour editor and erase the dxf from the part. The saved x_t (formally a dxf) file is then reapplied. Do the 'Create pocket from closed contour' deal again. No more issues with a link nest and crazy tool call up's. This kind of error has not been happening in twd files run off on Thermwood's CNC's and appears to be issues between the link and SB3. It's a work around but at least it works. No answer on the onion skin being partially removed or dropped off of parts completely. Have to get files and pictures over to TWD.

Definitely not prime time yet.

Tim

[Gary Campbell]

Kenneth...
I really liked some of the 3.5.late teens, but as I beta tested many of the newer versions, each seemed to be an improvement on the prior. Bad part is, or so it seems, when you fix one thing, 5 more get screwed up. Thats why I am not a programmer. I had to go back a couple versions on my shop computer to get a job done.

Tim...
I was afraid of that. We have had very few SB specific "bugs". Most of the stuff that has been reported in the past was able to be chased down by the TWD guys in their code. Sure do hope that some of the latest fixes arent causing cutting errors.

[ken_rychlik]

Gary,
I would have stayed with the 3.5.20 if I didn't want to run the link. I was talking about 3.6.xx :rolleyes:

I am thinking back to about 14 was working pretty decent before I decided to "upgrade" I have 20 running on it now, but i had to put old coppies of z zero and xy zero along with making my own JH file. Files are running ok as long as I don't hit the space bar.

Tim,

Normally emails to t-wood with the export is very productive. They usually know how and why it is acting the way it is. Very sharp folks there.

[chunkstyle]

Kenneth,

Yeah, I've had a lot of help from Daniell today and he's been able to find some of the strange that's been happening.
the onion skin setting doesnt appear to be working with arcs. I had the minimum set to 4 square inches and the shapes that I was missing onion skin pass on were over that. Daniell tried it on his end and saw that the program was not writing the code for onion skin as it should. I've had a lot of strange and whats been consistant are the use of circles and arcs brought into part editor for creating shapes or pocketing operations.
TWD has sent me a circle to air cut and see if it does the momentary pause at the four 90 degree points as I witnessed earlier. The thought is that there is some kind of trouble with the SB control handling the G code for this geometry. That's my butchered translation of it anyhow. If I learn anything about it I'll post it.

I've had Link trouble and SB3 trouble thru out these small cutting jobs. I now seem to have to throw out the INI file on a regular basis. In fact, I'm thinking that I will have to throw it out before any cutting session begins. Program bugs out and locks up if it's left open and idle for any length of time.

Getting nice repeatable blind dado joints though. Week had some results.

Tim

[ken_rychlik]

Tim,

What version of SB3 are you running?

[Gary Campbell]

Guys...
I really doubt we will find any of these problems that are specific to a particular version of SB3. We know SB is changing stuff. We know eCabs is constantly changing, and I am sure that the Link will have its share of changes also.

The only way that we as users can get them to play together nicely is to report all possible errors. Use the export button. Send it to TWD. If there are some things in the SB code that need to be tweaked... they (TWD) will let SB know. Remember..... NOTHING WILL CHANGE IF YOU DONT REPORT ERRORS!

[chunkstyle]

Kenneth,

I'll report back on the SB version tomorrow when I get over to the shop.

Gary,
Trust me when I say I've been a squeaky wheel. I agree that one report of a problem may go unnoticed but if there are more reporting the same problem it will probably get noticed and fixed sooner.

Tim

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...
Do you notice that as your machine gets broken in, everything gets easier? BTW, the break in period is for the owner, not the machine! :D

[chunkstyle]

LOL.,

No Gary, not yet. It's still a game of whack-a-mole for me. As I get some issues resolved more appear to take their place. It does get easier to understand the mechanics of the machine, though. With your help it's been a lot easier to diagnose the cutting results and what to do to fix it.

My current list is:

Why does the INI file keep getting buggered up and have to be deleted or the machine will run erratic. Have to delete it at least once a day.
Still no solution to the speed control issue. I've had a workaround for the Link provided by SB though.
Onion skins not getting cut from parts with arcs.
Shoulders on tenons not getting cut from certain parts.
Tool pathing on circles has a pause at 90 degree sections instead of a smooth path thru the entire circumference.
And then there's that latest one that had the spindle sit and spin during a final onion skin pass.


I have no doubt that the problems will get fixed. I also have no doubt that more problems will be discovered. Maybe I've reached a state of grace or Zen with the machine. It is nice to be cutting even if the cutting is sometimes incorrect.

Are you saying that there is a point when the problems stop? : )

Kenneth,
I'm running 3.6.18

Tim

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...

No, I cant say that they stop. But they do get harder to fix, so you might as well learn how to methodically chase them down. I have just had a flurry of erroneous stop hits and a non working machine after install of 3.6.24. Dont know if I got it fixed, but I did get it running and cutting files by going back a couple versions and removing all the OEM files for the ATC.

You might try another computer to eliminate any issues that your current one might be causing. I say this because 5 out of the 6 items on your list are not common with other users, or at least not known to me. Using another computer would determine if any of those issues might be particular to your control computer.

If you decide to try this, I would use a computer with winXP, 2 gig ram, USB 2.0 and no other software on the machine, especially printer or anti virus software. These have built in "checks" that can shift focus of the machine.

Do a clean install of 3.6.18 (remove with windows if existing, and delete the .ini file, remove all things shopbot)

If differences are noticed, write them down as you test your existing problems.

After testing 3.6.18, upgrade to 3.6.20 or 24 and do the same tests.

Let us know what/how it works

[ken_rychlik]

I never tried 18

I was running 14 and things were going smooth. Then Gary told me 20 was great, so I gave it a shot. It's not giving the kind of issues you have but it's not as stable as 14 was.

I am sure every version has some kind of issues.

I do agree that the ini file should not be getting hammered. Might have something to do with your pc.

[Gary Campbell]

Kenneth....
I received clarification on versions 22 and 24 today from ShopBot. Other than the spindle controller fixes, (many of which I beta tesed) no other changes in the software. There are some ongoing file organization items, especially for the MTC and ATC. This is the one that bit me. I had some user modified files overwritten by the install in my ATC folder and I beleve caused the majority of my problems.

I got my files in order and installed 3.6.24. All is well. Thanks to the crew at SB for the info.