Who pays for errors?

[rcnewcomb]

I've been talking to some high-end custom cabinet shops about doing some v-carving on cabinet doors and drawer fronts. One of the questions that has come up is, if I make an error in cutting (for example, the pattern is 90 degrees off) would I compensate the cabinet shop for just the material or both the material and the cabinet shop's labor?

What do others do? Do you have this spelled out in a contract or purchase agreement?

[paco]

Hi Randall!

I'd say that if the error(s) are from you, then assume yourelf fully... if you're partly in fault assume partly... if you truly believe that the errors are fom your customer specification(s)... then stand up to have yourself respected. I recently assumed my shop's labor for a sign in which the customer was'nt happy with the finish of this carved sign (very minors toolmarks from an intricate pocketting)... but the customer accepted to provide more material and to pay for the difference in labor involved into more intricate toolpathing (3D finishing; 4 hours instead of about 1...) and retouching his design.

I personnaly prefer to keep this verbal for now... which leave some room for discussion...

More than once I've "repaired" customer's errorS (like typos into signs and bad scaling of files) COMPLETLY FREELY which saved 'em the whole job... only once (or twice) I've heard good comment about this... they'll see that big your flaws but rarely notice your "good moves"... keep that in mind...

[mikejohn]

Randall
The legal take on this (at least in the UK) is as follows.
The customers supplies the door, and expects to get back the door and the additional work, as specified, and at the agreed price.
If this doesn't happen, then whatever the cost is to repeat this, in that the customer does end up with what was agreed, is down to who ever made the mistake.
Say a neighbour wants the job doing, and purchases the doors.
You would expect to have to pay the full cost of replacing the doors, wouldn't you?
This might also include any extra costs incurred, like delivery for instance.
I have also redone signs with typos, for free, as a 'good will' gesture.
Do get the instructions clearly written and signed, even if a full blown contract isn't available.
.............Mike

[gerald_d]

Randall, can you get them to give you the blanks before they put their labour in?

The compensation value is their cost - not their cost plus profit. They should not profit from your error. We have had some cases in touristy type gift shops where the typical signs "If you break it, you have to buy it" are displayed. (These darn shops hope that you break it - it increases their sales!) People are refusing to pay for stuff that was carelessly displayed, where aisles are narrow and shoppers bump into each other - shops should have insurance against that or take some risk themselves. The main points are, the maximum compensation should be the cost price of the item and there should be less compensation for careless (verbal) instructions.

And if you have compensated someone for their "loss" then the "damaged" item becomes your property - they can't simply keep it, turn it over, and use it in another job!

[mikejohn]

Gerald
I disagree on one thing
The compensation value is their loss, not their cost.
If there loss includes lost profit, I feel you are liable.
They should not gain by your error, but they also shouldnt lose by it.
Instruction are frequently unclear. Sometimes the client doesnt really know what he wants until he sees what you have made, then says "I wanted it longer/thicker/curvier here"
"and in pink"
If it is a simple case of replacing the door, then its just the cost of replacement, I agree.
As for signs in businesses, under UK law they have virtually no legal veracity.
You can put a sign up in your workshop saying, "we accept no responsibility for any injury suffered by visitors to this workshop". Believe me, the judge will ignore it completely, when someone has tested how hot a spinning router bit is!
...............Mike

[gerald_d]

Mike, the principle here is that our mistake should not double their profit on an item.

[mikejohn]

I agree.
They should not be in a better position after our mistake, but they should also not be in a worse one.
My experience tells me that often problems occur because the client or customer has failed to give a fully accurate description of what was wanted.
Now, I feel we have a duty of care here. If you are supplied with material so thin that when you V-carve the desired size, you break right through the material, even though you are obeying the clients instructions, you, as the expert should have noticed this and informed the client. Of course if they then issue the exact same instruction the problem becomes theirs.
You really need to get as accurate a description, in writing, as possible. Without this, if something goes wrong, there is definately going to be two recollections on what was asked for.
In the end, even if the client is at fault, it is likely that standing firm on your position will lose you a customer. It may also lose you other customers if he spreads the tale around.
It comes down to a business decision. Is the cost of putting it right, after explaining the clients error, less than the possible loss of good will? If you make the client understand how the error occured, then put it right, maybe in the long term you do yourself some good.
Circumstances at the time dictate what you should decide.
..................Mike

[gerald_d]

Loss of a customer is not the end of a world. It is a liberating experience once you have learnt to say to someone "I am sorry that I can't seem to satisfy your standards, so I will not be taking any more work from you in the future". And the funny thing is that it doesn't destroy goodwill with the better customers. Invariably the better guys have also been burnt by the bad guys somewhere along the line. Life is too short.....

[gene]

Gerald , I agree
I have a sign over the door of my shop that reads " everyone who passes thru this door brings me great joy. Some by comming and some by going" several definately by leaving .
Gene

[rookie432]

I would much rather start with raw materials and let the cabinet shop build the door around the carving. I could do premade doors if absolutely necessary but I feel if I screw up someones work then I am liable and would expect the same if it were my work. If I gave the carving to the door shop and they messed up making the door I would expect them to pay me to make another carving. And Vice versa. I jst think it is good business.

Bill

[mikejohn]

Gerald and Gene
An interesting point.
Should your feelings about a particular customer over-ride the business of making a profit?
................Mike

[gerald_d]

You can make more profit if your time is not wasted by the guys who make you do expensive re-runs. Being self-employed gives you the luxury of being able to weed your garden.

[marshawk]

Air cut first! Charge for the extra time. If everything comes out OK and you feel bad about the extra charge, put on a smiley face and refund some of their money.

Let the customer know what the hazards are and ask if the REALLY want to do this.

When possible, carve shallow enough so you can plane the item and start over.

We have carved into existing panels and signs for several customers and it always comes down to the "Measure Twice, Cut Once" rule.

Go through the options: "How about an applique?" Like Bill said, "It would be better if I just made you a new piece, and here's why..." And, if you are really nervous, and as a last resort: "Have you tried the laser engraver down the street?"

By far, our best form of advertising has been word of mouth. We even get referrals from people who could not afford our work. Why? Because we bend over backwards to try to get them an acceptable product.

But, whatever you do, be honest with the customer. You just don't know what level of knowledge of your process or of manufactuing some of these people have. If you are honest, people will respect you for it and they will be more willing to work with you on a solution.

My $0.02.

Chip

[alabama_davo]

I look at it this way...I don't like over-charging or under-charging a client. However, I don't like screwing up a door blank or such. I ALWAYS preview and air cut complex NEW CUT FILES first. Why should I charge someone else for my errors? Take responsibility for your work and you will be rewarded down the road by return business! My clients come back because of service and they are VERY loyal because I'm fair with them. If I feel there is alot of business from a particular cleint I may do a FREE sample (or 2) it's a marketing expense and I write it off as such (just like damaged door blanks). These machines do WAY more then your typical cabinet shop can and I expect to be compensated for my talents and equipment.

[gene]

Mike,
Yes your feelings about a person should override the buisness of making a profit. That customer does not have the last dollar to ever be made. Also if i get a huntch or bad feeling i do NOT work for that person. I reciently didn't follow that feeling when i redid a kitchen set of cabinets , she wanted to see a sample of the finsh saying that it had to be smooth. she looks at the sample and said its too smooth it looks like plastic. Next the color was a shade off , next the knobs were off by 1/64 of an inch (NO EXAGERATION) so at this point we completely had to redo the set of cabinets and reinstalled them uopn she still was not happy resulting in the loss of aprox 3800.00 in materials labor and extreme aggrivation not to mention STRESS. So the answer is definately go with your gut feeling.
There are people who lay awake at night trying to figure out how to beat people out of a dollar.
If they beat you out of a dollar thats one less they have to work for. Gene

[mikejohn]

Gentlemen
I am not advocating putting up with impossible customers just to gain business.
As I said above "Circumstances at the time dictate what you should decide."
My message was, if an error has been made, and it is the clients error, explain it to them and correct it if you can, at your expense if this makes good business sense.
I certainly wouldn't entertain a customer who was too difficult. I have just turned down the possibility of a large amount of work because, quite simply, I still can not understand exactly what the client expects, after repeated questions. I feel he doesn't know what he wants.

This isn't just in our industry. In my past life I was involved with government contracts worth $millions, and at times it was like "Alice in Wonderland". Only in those cases I couldn't walk away, it wasn't my call!
...................

[gerald_d]

Mike, we agree with you. Relax and have great weekend!

[mikejohn]

Gerald
What is interesting here, and is relevant to this thread, is that the replies assume I said something I didn't.
This is often the problem with job instructions if they are not crystal clear.
If not absolutely certain, ask before cutting.
Of course, proper drawings would help

As for the weekend, they have the habit of merging into the week! (but at least I'm making money!!) Christmas comes but once a year!


............Mike

[mikejohn]

Edited, double post

[jseiler]

For the several projects of this type I have taken on, I usually get clarification on what happens if there is an error on my end (computer crash, bit breakage, etc). In particular if the materials are being provided by them. If its something that can't be easily replaced (high cost, high labor, etc), I charge more as insurance. I figure that if all goes well, no customer will complain if I refund some of the money ("I miscalculated the labor, here's $50 back). If there is a problem, it doesn't hurt as much if you have a cushion. There was a post a long time ago about how its generally a mistake to allow customer's to provide materials as typically you profit from material sales, and if they provide the material, you don't get that and if something goes wrong, you're expected to buy more material at thier price (or haggle down to their cost possbilly P'ing the customer off). Its generally better if you provide the materials.

In general, I provide the materials because customers don't seem to understand that I don't want to cut cheap heavily knotted warped pine.
I'll spend a lot of time picking out lumber that is true with few knots...the customer is not all that familiar with MY requirements.

John

[mikejohn]

On reflection, I think it probably makes more sense to be selective on the work you take on, rather than being selective about the person providing the work.
.............Mike

[jseiler]

Mike, can't it be both?

Sometimes the work is relatively straightforward but the person you have to deal with is unreasonable. As pointed out above, some people ask too much, want you to work for free or just like drama. Its ok to pass on a customer with unreasonable (or unreachable) expectations.

Sometimes the person you have to deal with is reasonable and the work has unreasonable risk. Whether there is too little money to be made for a large risk of failure, or your machine or your talents are not up to what they customer needs, it can happen. Its ok to pass on work with unreasonable risk.

I find more of this trouble dealing with friends/family than I do dealing with businesses. Businesses don't remain in business by hiring unreasonable people or maintaining unresaonable expectations. Friends and family...well, that can be a whole 'nother ball game.

Some days I'm tempted to refuse work from friends and family, but since I'm a pushover that way, I'm usually too willing to help.
Oh well, they're friends and family.

John

[gerald_d]

What about the ex-customer who was reasonable in the morning and impossible in the afternoon - after a liquid lunch....

[bob_lofthouse]

Hi Gerald,

I have had one of them customers... and always after friday lunch...

[marshawk]

Sounds like my landlord.