Issues w/ 3.6.1 - 3.6.5

[john_hartman]

I have been reading several posts concerning issues w/ the newest control software versions, but I have not read anything which describes my situation. This past June I upgraded to 3.6.1. Since that time I have been having an annoying problem with the bot locking up.

At the end of everyday I park the spindle at 96,48. The next day I hit the "jog home" icon (or J2) to drive it back to 0,0. The problem is that 10 or so inches into its path home that bot stops hard and get "Shopbot Paused in Movement or File Action". If I look at the screen the control panel thinks its still moving to its intended destination and doesn't stop until it gets there. So I hit "Quit" on message box, then click on the jog home icon again to get it close to 0,0, then I have to rezero. Once this is done I seem to be good for the rest of the days cutting.

My prox. switches are turned off, no screen savers, the PC is not connected to the net, nor is it used as the main design pc. Nothing else is running. No wiring or physical changes were made after the software upgrade. All the usual questions Frank asks are in line.

One thing I read on the forum caught me eye but I am a little confused about it or if it really pertains to me.

"Shopbot Loosing Comm." Try- grounding wire from the PC chassis to the D-ring on the USB serial connection to the Shopbot Control Broad. This portion is what I don't understand- "D-ring on the USB serial connection to the Shopbot Control Broad"

If anyone has any suggestions to a possible cure I would be very appreciative. Thanks.

[bill]

John,
I had strange and wonderful things happen when I went to 3.6.x software. I spoke w/ShopBot and the return to an older ver was in order. I am now running 3.5.18 with no problems.
Bill

[scottcox]

John,

I think I wrote that. Inside your control box, the USB to serial adapter connects to a DB9 serial port on the board itself. Connect a ground wire to the metal part of that DB9 connector and run it back to ground on the computer chassis.

This simple ground was the difference between running and "not" running. I'm not sure that's your problem, but it won't take long to find out and it may just save headaches in the future.

Good luck and let us know what you find.

Scott Cox

[john_hartman]

Scott-

Let me see if I follow you. So where the USB wire goes into the control box it terminates into port which is about .5" x .5" x .5" which is wrapped by a thin metal cover on at least two of its sides. This port is mounted to a small "vertically positioned" board about 2"x3". Are we talking about the same thing? If so what would be the best/easiest way to connect the ground wire to this very small/thin metal cover? In case it matters I'm running a PRS Alpha.

[scottcox]

I think your PRS Alpha controller may be different than my PRT Alpha. I'm not sure. But a picture is worth a thousand words, so.....


3693

[john_hartman]

Scott-

It looks like I'm using a different port. I do see the port you have though, just unused.

I attached a few photo's of the same area in my box. I assume the same result can be accomplished with the way my USB connects; correct?

http://picasaweb.google.com/JeanChristopheHartman/Shopbot#

[scottcox]

I just looked and I don't have that type of port on my PRT Alpha. I honestly don't know if this would work the same way, but if you can somehow attach a ground wire to the chassis of that port, it may be worth consideration. I would call ShopBot and ask Frank before I did that, just to be safe.

[ed_lang]

The new control board has the USB port directly on it. The older style uses the serial port on the breakout board.

So Scott, yours will not have that port.... you didn't miss seeing it!

[blackhawk]

Bill - When you went back to 3.5.18, did you also have to update the firmware? Any other special procedures for going backwards?

I have seen odd stuff happen ever since changing to 3.6.1. The scariest thing was that I was manually jogging with the keyboard, let off the arrow key, and it kept on going. I had to turn the power off at the control box to stop it.

[bill]

Brad,
Yes, same problem(s), and run-away scares me too. No firmware changes, I just did the 3.5.18 install and ran the setup again. 3.5.18 is not as pretty but works for me.

[jerry_stanek]

I tried the 3.6.1 on my old machine and it didn't like it. I had lost steps and at higher speeds it jerked. I tried it on my new unit and it ran a little better but still not what I would call smooth. This is with the same control box and control computer.

[courtney2018]

I had some big problems today, and also the same problem as Brad today. I'm using 3.6.5. I lost comm 3 times. Each time I carefully shut down the software and turned off the machine, then turned on the machine and re-launched the software.

After the 3rd time I instructed the bot to move position and it took off like a rocket. Somehow the jog speeds were changed. I never touched them. The software somehow made the change. It scared the snot (polite version) out of me.

I changed the jog speed back to defaults and it went back to jogging like what I'm used to.

I'm now in a position where I don't trust my bot. Everything is fine now, and was fine mostly up until today. I've lost comm a few times in the past, but nothing major. Now I feel like I can't trust my bot. I don't have a grounding problem. This bit about losing comm is a issue with the drivers. And how can it change settings on it's own?

What is a driver version that is safe to use? I can't put $300 worth of wood under this thing without being able to trust it.

[courtney2018]

Another problem I have is that sometimes I'll tell the bot to do something and it doesn't take the command. I have to repeat the command. It's typically a command to jog to a position or a command to zero an axis.

I know this has been a complaint before. Just wanted to put my hand up in the air for it as well.

[dlcw]

Courtney,

You hit the nail right on the head about trusting the machine to properly and reliably and repeatably do cutting/carving jobs correctly.

I've struggled with this issue since I got my PRS Alpha 96x60 back in May of this year. I've broken a lot of bits, ruined a lot of expensive material and been very frustrated with this machine and the software. It wasn't until I went to version 3.6.1 that things have somewhat stabilized. However, with 3.6.1 there are some known bugs while using a ShopBot supplied air drill. I've learned to work with and around these problems. I tried versions 3.6.3, 3.6.5 and 3.6.10 and all kinds of problems started happening. I've since gone back to 3.6.1 and things are good in the world again.

The sad and confusing part about this whole saga is that your new machine might work well on 3.6.3 while mine won't while my machine works well on 3.6.1 and yours might not. To me it makes no sense but is a fact of life. Posters on this forum have indicated their machines work great on 3.6.5 where my machine chocks and pukes on that version. Some folks have said they are good to go on 3.6.10 where my machine went south on that version. The only difference between each of the PRS Alpha setups seems to be the PC's that each owner is using. The ShopBot hardware is supposedly the same from the factory.

Maybe ShopBot should make their lives and ours a lot easier and sell a preconfigured computer that the owner is not allowed to configure/change/upgrade/downgrade, etc. On this computer would run the Shopbot control software, and if you happen to use Shopbot Link, that piece of software, but nothing else. This way if there is a problem, Shopbot owns the hole thing and can fix the software/hardware and make that fix available to everyone with very specific instructions on how to install the fix. Another idea might be for Shopbot to break the control software into modules so that things like the Indexer and digitizer have their own software and won't interfere with the basic control software that makes the machine move along the X, Y and Z axis. Going this route would help to reduce the problems with making changes to the indexer control software and breaking something in the basic X,Y,Z control.

I think the control software is trying to do to much and none of it is working well. So, band aids are being put on top of band aids to try and get things working. This all has a very negative impact on the owners in the field who purchased these machine in the hopes of making their business more efficient and profitable. Beta testing software and downtime are not something I signed up for.

I can say after 5 months of disappointments, lost revenue, mounting costs and lost hair, things are somewhat stable for me. It's just sad it took 5 months and so much frustration and money replacing bits and material to get to this point.

Courtney, hang in there because at some point you will find the combination that works for you. I hate to say it, but it most likely won't be the latest and greatest version but you will eventually find a version of software that seems to work well for your needs. Buy some MDF and experiment before trusting your machine to expensive material. I went through about 15 sheets of MDF and $200 in bits to work out the bugs. I wish I could be reimbursed for these costs.

Don
www.diamondlakewoodworks.com (http://www.diamondlakewoodworks.com)

[knight_toolworks]

the pre configured computer may help a lot. or change the shopbot over to a mac since the hardware and software are more consistent.
I have never had the software for the most part cause me material. I wish I could blame it for my mistakes. but I get problems when doing things manually.

[dana_swift]

I will put in my $0.02. This is just my opinion, but a huge part of the problem is Microsoft. Microsoft keeps changing the design of the OS and then forcing all PC vendors to sell the new unstable OS. Each OS configuration requires file locations to change, interfaces with USB and other low level devices be re-written. All of this having unknown consequences and years to work out the kinks.

3.X.X is expected to run on at least 3 versions of Windows with identical performance for the user. Very unlikely to ever occur.

Then Microsoft requires each user to accept "we don't accept any liability for the use of this product". No matter how dangerous and ill-thought-out their product is. Yet they use their market dominance to require that you use their products if you want to get into any commercial market whatsoever.

If SB had based their product on Linux, almost nobody would have bought it. For some reason the general public trusts Microsoft, in spite of their perpetual abuse of their position.

Most computer users have no experience with anything else and presume that WinTel has inherent trustworthiness. It clearly does not.

Why do they sell a product that requires you immediately buy another product to protect it from viruses and mal-ware? Linux does not. The Mac does not.

Why is all the support industry PC oriented? Its the one that is perpetually broken. The one that requires a huge support staff to keep a large enterprise able to use the broken product. The support industry would implode radically if people switched to a reliable platform.

My only wish is that SB would offer an RT/Linux version so we would have a real choice of computer platform. It doesn't matter which version of 3.X.X we use as long as it runs on an untrustworthy foundation.

Strange behavior may be in some obscure part of the SB code, why does Windows make it so difficult to find any problem with the computer at all? When any of my Windows machines has a hickup, there is no way at all to run the problem down, or even see clearly how the machine is currently configured. What does each service do exactly? Why is it needed? What exactly will quit working if it is turned off?

According to Process Explorer.. there are 27 programs currently executing on my XP based laptop. I think of myself as only running one.. the browser I am useing to write this message. If I launch SB-3 that will make 28. Does anybody have any idea which of those 26 other things I don't need? Why so many? It seems like 3-4 might be reasonable. The OS, printer spooler, network monitor, and the browser. 27 things from god-knows-where taking CPU attention away from controlling a device where safety is a real concern.

Suggestion: get Process Explorer (a free down) and look to see how many programs are running without your explicit permission.

You can get it from:
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653.aspx

How about a real OS choice?

Hmm.. I think I went beyond $0.02.

D

[courtney2018]

I like the idea of individual modules. That way if there's an update to something I don't have, or whatever, I don't need to get it.

The other thing I've noticed is how SB software is installed. I have two hard drives where my C drive is small and the D drive is large. I did that in case I need to reformat nothing gets affected but the C. But SB software has installed things on my C drive when I told it to install on my D drive. There are other software that installs the same way, not just SB software. So now I have a C drive that is gradually filling up with extra stuff that I didn't tell I didn't give permission to do.

Alot of the SB files on C are duplicated on D. Why? Which one is the one SB software really uses? Took me a while to figure that one out chasing down a problem with the postprocessors.

Dana's right as well. Most of us only us Windows. He and I, probably since we're engineers and have worked in large companies, are also accustomed to using Linux. It is much more stable and without all the headaches. Plus, Linux by itself is open source, which means you can go in and change the way the OS works. SB could employ one person that knows Linux and adapt it so that it's more customized for running our bots.

[courtney2018]

Today I'm cutting a finish pass routine on a prototype guitar neck. Thank God it was just "cheap" Poplar that I was cutting and not a customer's neck.

Twice I lost comm., while I was setting up my blank to get cut. Then while I was cutting the finish pass (rastering in x-direction) it sounded like it physically hit something and made a thud. I look at the neck being cut and the coordinates shifted over ruining an otherwise good neck.

I look around to see if anything is close to the spoil board moving back and forth and I see NOTHING. There's nothing around it to keep it from moving back and forth. So I go into the toolpath file and remove everything that had been cut so far, but starting before it made the goof in the neck. I start it back up and it goes over the goof with no problems. Then about 5 minutes later it did it again.

Again, nothing is anywhere near the x axis.

Has anyone had this problem? This isn't the first time that I've had this happen. The losing comm. part of the problem I continue to have every once in a while. This part about it sounding like it physically hit something is very serious. I can't put expensive wood underneath that router with this going on. It makes me think that there's something wrong with the bot, but I see absolutely nothing that would suggest there's a problem. The x motor sounds fine, and performs fine during manual jogs, or automated jogs.

Anyone?

[kevin]

The same thing happen to me with a corner unit when i did the 45 degree cut.
Was going to call thech suppoort
It was a loud bang

[cip]

Courtney:

For what it's worth I'd call ShopBot.
I personally have gone back to the 3.5.20 version of the control software and did away with the problems associated with the 3.6.?? versions. Unless your are using E cabinets you don't really need the 3.6.?? versions.

[courtney2018]

Yes Kevin, a loud bang! I'll be calling them this morning on it soon.

Thanks Mike. I'm not using e-cabinets so that shouldn't be a problem.

[ken_rychlik]

I was running a file yesterday and forgot to set my bit height. It was moving across to the cut area and I hit enter to stop it. It jerked sideways and made a loud popping sound. Lost it's place and I had to re-zero everything.

At shopbot they have been telling me they can't duplicate the problem. I can understand that when you can't see the problem it is hard to fix. I want the ecab link, but I think I am going back to the sb3.5.20 till it gets fixed.

When it runs good on the old software and runs bad on the new software, it is obvious that is where the problem lies, but they don't seem to get it.

I think there is so much "stuff" in the new software relating to the link and it is getting confused.

Kenneth

[courtney2018]

I can't even duplicate it, you know! Sounds like you got the same problem that I've got.

Like I said, after it happened I went into the cut file and delete all the lines of code leading up to that spot, but just before it. Restarted the routine and it went over that goof without any problems, but then 5 minutes later it happened again.

There's something going on somewhere. I don't think it's mechanical. I don't feel or see any problems when I'm moving around in jog mode or even if I do a Move command. It's only while it's running a cut file. There's no instructions in the cut file that would tell the machine to do that...I've looked. It has to be drivers!

It's very troubling though. Makes me feel like I've got an $11,000 paper weight in the garage.

[ken_rychlik]

I'm trying to make a living with my paperweight.

I have lots of move commands ignored, and I think Ryan is sending me a card to try and address that issue.

I did have one pause in a file yesterday that I did not request. It stopped and gave me the continue/quit option and I did not touch anything.

So I have move command errors, file running errors, and stop erroros. If I had not run the old software and knew my machine was capable of making me money, I would think this thing was junk/paperweight material.

[jerry_stanek]

I had problems with the 3.6 version when I tried it on my PR and PRS running the same computer that has XP on it. Both machines run great with 3.5.9 software. with the 3.6.2 my machines would stutter and make weird noises.

[courtney2018]

Kenneth, I've had the same move command problems as you. It's done that "continue/stop" option on me before as well at least a couple of times now.

Let me know if a new card does the trick. I'm trying to make money with mine too, but there's no way I can with it acting like this.

I'm going to talk to support here in a bit and see what they say. I've already downloaded all the older drivers. I'm wondering if I move up to the latest one if that'll solve it or if I should go back to 3.5.something. Right now I've got 3.6.5.

[ken_rychlik]

Courtney, I am on 3.6.10 and I think it is worse. I have a 3.6.3 that I am thinking of trying to go back to, but I want to wait till the interface board comes in before I do anything else if I can take it.

If you don't run e cabinets go to 3.5.20 and all will be well.

Kenneth

[dlcw]

Based on what I'm reading on this forum a lot of people are loosing confidence in their machines and starting to regret forking a lot of money over to Shopbot for paperweights.

I really hope that Shopbot stops adding new features to the software and starts focusing development efforts on stabilizing and fixing these problems so all us owners out here can get some confidence back about our purchase of these machines.

I would also like to see them modularize the software so that basic machine control functionality is in the base module with add on modules containing functionality for things like the indexer and the SB Link. This way owners of the indexer download the basic control package and the module for the indexer. The SB Link owners download the basic control package and the module for the SB Link. I own the SB Link. I think this way the majority of the users would have the basic package that would reliably run their paperweight all the time, every time. When new capability is needed for the indexer, the indexer module is modified and not the base control software. Same idea with the SB Link module.

I spent 20 years in the software development field (4 years with my own company). I developed software on platforms ranging from mainframes down to standalone home computer applications (back in the early and mid 80's). Modularization of software was the key to stabilizing base functionality and add new capabilities without breaking existing functionality. It worked then, I would think it would still work now. But I've been out of software development since 2000 so maybe software development has changed so much since then that it doesn't work that way anymore?

My .02 cents.

Don
www.diamondlakewoodworks.com (http://www.diamondlakewoodworks.com)

[ken_rychlik]

Don

In their defense, I bought a used machine and they are still "trying" to help me. That speaks a lot about their willingness to help and have happy customers.

I agree with the module idea though. I think the main sb3 package has gotten way to complicated.

Kenneth

[wberminio]

I have been using V3.6.5 since it came out.
So far there have been no issues.
I don't think it is a wide spread problem.
But certainly one that I'm sure Shopbot will resolve.

[courtney2018]

I was just talking to Frank at support and here's the deal....at least my deal.

I have an older computer that I built waaaay back. It's a dual PIII computer but is native USB 1.1. Several years ago I bought a USB 2.0 PCI card and installed that to get the higher USB transfer speeds.

On my installed card I had my wireless mouse and keyboard on it, my wireless interent adapter on it and the Shopbot supplied IO Gear USB 4-port plugged into it. The Shopbot was plugged into the IO Gear 4-port USB.

Frank had me run a speed test and I was getting 60.8 and 61 efficiency consistently. I unplugged the wireless internet adapter, moved the wireless keyboar and mouse connection to my USB 1.1 port, still using the IO Gear 4-port USB plugged into my USB 2.0 card and re-ran the test. I still had low 60's for efficiency.

I then unplugged the IO Gear USB port and plugged the Shopbot direclty into my USB 2.0 card without anything els plugged into it and re-ran the test. I did the test 10 times and got 90.8 efficiency every single time.

He says that they've done a speed test with and without the IO Gear USB port and found that the IO Gear USB port was always faster. My case was the first that he had heard of it being faster without it.

So, for what it's worth, try doing a speed test with and without your Shopbot supplied USB adapter and see what you get.

Go to Utilities --> Diagnostic Tools and a folder will pop up with some different executibles. You'll see the speed tester there. You'll need to first be in Preview mode before doing this. If the speed tester can't find your Shopbot then click the button that says find shopbot.

Since my efficiency was really low, and they say you need to be at 70% of higher to run full speed, that was the cause of losing comms. This makes sense to me, so I find it very believeable. He also said that this could also be the cause of the machine sounding as if I hit something.

I'm going to finish cutting my guitar neck without changing versions and see how it goes. I might end up going back to 3.5.20, which he also gave as a suggestion. Try one thing at a time to narrow this problem down.

If anyone is having problems please try this speed test and report back to this thread with your findings. I'm interested in seeing if others have a slower response using the supplied USB port or not. This information would also help others having the same, or similar problems.

Thanks!

[dlcw]

Kenneth,

Don't get me wrong. I think Shopbot's support is some of the best I've ever experienced. They are great!!!

I agree with you that the control software has gotten too feature packed and is causing instability and interoperability problems.

Erminio,

You are right that eventually Shopbot will resolve the issues. I can't run my production shop on hoping it will eventually get resolved. Like many others I rely heavily on this machine to make my living. When it's acting weird, I'm not doing that.

Therein lies the problem. Your machine is working well on 3.6.5 while others are reporting problems with this version. I run fine on 3.6.1 while others have problems with this version. This seems inconsistent.

On 3.6.1, using SB Link, things are pretty stable for me. When I tried 3.6.5 my machine died. Same thing with 3.6.10. At least I can still function on 3.6.1 so life is good now.

[ken_rychlik]

71%, but I have another pc on the way as well to try it.

A lot of folks have had the lost comm issue with low percentage there. I have had other gremlins.

I sent in an old pc that was slow and giving me a fit and it would still run everything fine at the factory. Just slower.

Erminio,,, Want to trade ??????

Kenneth

[courtney2018]

Kenneth, do the speed test with the supplied USB port and without it and post your findings. I would be interested to see the difference between the two!

Ideally I like for everyone on this thread to do this test to see what the difference is. It would be a good database to have.

[ken_rychlik]

71%, but I have another pc on the way as well to try it.

A lot of folks have had the lost comm issue with low percentage there. I have had other gremlins.

I sent in an old pc that was slow and giving me a fit and it would still run everything fine at the factory. Just slower.

Erminio,,, Want to trade ??????

Kenneth

[wberminio]

I understand.
I can't work when my machine is down.
All I'm saying you are not left out on a limb by yourself.

Kenneth-NO

[dlcw]

Courtney,

Interesting you mention the Shopbot supplied IO Gear USB port. I had basically the same conversation with Frank about 4 months ago. It turns out the Shopbot supplied IO Gear USB port was actually causing my USB system in the computer to malfunction. I removed the device and everything started working perfectly. I purchased a new USB port at the local radio shack and it worked perfectly and my comm speed is about 78%. But I did find out that I can't have the new one plugged into the wall wart for power or it causes the control software to have comm problems with the control board. I'm confused about this.....

[ken_rychlik]

How do I get a copy of 3.6.1? I want stable.

If I can find stable, and it will run the ecab link, that is all I am after.

Kenneth

[courtney2018]

http://www.shopbottools.com/controlsoftware.htm

Then click on the second link and a new window will pop up. You can choose from a list of previous versions there.

[ken_rychlik]

That is just older versions of 3.5, but they don't show the older versions of the 3.6

Kenneth

[dlcw]

Call Shopbot. There may be another link they can give you.

[ken_rychlik]

Frank talked me through finding it.

Here is how in case anyone else wants it.

Right click on the sb3.6.10 link and do a copy shortcut. then paste it in the address bar, then remove the 0 from the 10.

Kenneth

[courtney2018]

I don't get this! I did another speed test just now and I'm consistantly getting in the mid-60s.

I talked to Dana Swift this morning and he said his is in the 50s, but has never had any issues.

What gives?!?!

[kevin]

thanks for the post and your time Courtney I will try this and rerun the file
Just curios why don't they use firewire?

[courtney2018]

Kevin, my guess is they used USB because it's more prevalent. Now that USB 3.0 is out I'd like to see Shopbot switch to that as well as offer us the hardware to upgrade our bots to USB 3.0.

USB 3.0 is 10 times faster (5Gbps) than USB 2.0 (480MBps) as well as being able to transfer information both ways simutaneously.

Firewire 3200 is going to be released soon that has 3.2 GHz speeds. Still not as fast as USB 3.0, but USB has always been reliant on a computers hardware and software configurations. I don't know if USB 3.0 will be the same, so it could be that Firewire 3200 will give USB 3.0 a run for it's money.

Either way, if tech support is claiming that low speeds are a source of comms failure, then they need to look into switching to USB 3.0.

I'm still not sold on the idea of the efficiency speed being the cause. Like I said, Dana Swift's speeds are in the low 50s and he's never had any issues. I ran my guitar neck file today without any problems and my speed was in the mid-60s. I also went back to version 3.5.20. I would suggest to go back to that version unless you absolutely have to have a 3.6.x version.

I'm going to be doing another neck tomorrow and see what happens.

[Gary Campbell]

Here is my latest:

running SB3 ver 3.6.10, SB Link ver 15

1st sheet in file I didnt notice assembly mark drilling on the +X end of sheet. Since I have allowed for -X room (dovetails & mortises) of about 2" I lose drilling from 94.5 (X) to end of sheet (my choice) When machine traversed to drill these 2 holes my X limit switch was hit.

I quit the file, unchecked some parts in the nest to get them reorganized, renested the remaining, checked for drills on sheet end, and reran the SB Link file.

At the start of the second sheet I noticed that my drill with the 10mm bit touched the sheet during a toolchange. I immediately hit the [S] key. The machine jogged, from a stopped position, 38 inches before stopping, burying the bit into the material and bending it into a "U".

The bit was my only one on hand. There were no extra sheets in stock either.
Cost: Plywood $86 plus 3.5 hr round trip to replace. Bit $14 plus either ovenite freight or 2 day wait. Loss of customer confidence due to non deleivery of a promised, scheduled job: PRICELESS! Loss of future work... possibly 5 figures! I got the job due to an early delivery date.

I an not going to emphatically say that there were not any user errors involved in this snafu. I will say that I am nearing 150 sheets cut using the SB Link (20 @ my own expense testing the betas) and user errors are at a very manageable number, or at least predictable. I should have known that lost postition would occur when limits are hit. My bad on the no rezero.

I can say that these "gremlins" are occuring far too often for my livelyhood to depend on this machine. I will also say that I feel that I am not alone. I also feel that "things" worked better a few months, or versions back.

I want to appoligize to the community for a non positive post, which I usually try to keep private. I also appologize for being one, if not the most prolific requester of added features. It appears that at least some of the added features have rendered the SB3 software nearly unusable.

I know the good folks in Durham are working on this, but it appears that no real world problems seem to be repeatable there. Maybe that is the problem. I sure hope they can solve it soon, many of our livelyhoods may depend on it.

[jerry_stanek]

I wonder if Shopbot could modify one of the earlier 3.5 versions to be able to run the SB link?

[courtney2018]

I wonder if some of them would be willing to travel to some of us that have problems to witness them first hand. We could also video tape our work so that we can send to SB and show the problem happening.

[pappybaynes]

Gary,
I too am using 3.6.10 and experienced a problem to lengthy to discuss for fear it will force me to exercise my second amendment rights on my machine. After emailing tech support, I was asked if I had downloaded the firmware...yes was my answer...but to my amazement I had not done it correctly and was running firmware for the Alpha and not the standard...it appears that there is a very specific way to download the firmware...which is not specified anywhere...once done, my machine is dead on...of course that is after I ruined a $200 sheet of gasket material and am WAY behind on this job...I emailed Ted Hall with my concerns and he said they would address that problem...we shall see...
Dick
PS Happy Veterans Day to fellow vets - THANKS!!!

[ken_rychlik]

I ran on 3.6.1 yesterday and other than the usual keyboard commands being ignored, it did run better. I am watching the mail box and waiting for the interface board.

Kenneth

[cip]

I wonder if SB link is part of the problem?
Or maybe it's all the on screen graphics telling you what the machine you are watching is going. Why the on screen? You should never leave the machine unattended for any reason.
I personally don't think the comm. speed is the issue. I ran timing tests several times today, all at 73.9 yet the machine continued to act up. I went back to 3.5.20, no more problems. Man I am sure glad that I don't need the link to continue to produce product.

[ken_rychlik]

Dick, can we get instructions on the specific way to download the firmware?

Kenneth

[courtney2018]

Hey Mike, I was going to call you today, but got side tracked with other stuff. Was going to ask you about all this. I went back to 3.5.20 as well. I haven't had any issues yet....thank God!

I agree with you. I don't think the comm speed is the problem. When you load a file up to cut it first goes to 0,0 and pauses while the file loads into memory. That gives me the impression that it's acting as a buffer so there shouldn't be any loss of data packets being sent from the computer to the bot. I think it has everything to do with the version.

Anyways, I'll report back if I have a problem with 3.5.20.

[Gary Campbell]

Another update...
Did a M$ uninstall and removed the .ini's. Installed 3.6.3 and immediately experienced numerous lost comm --> shutdown errors at the location of my first hole to be drilled. I was able to repeat this 3 times.

Installed 3.6.5 and cut my files without any problem. Go figure. I would have bet money against that combination working.

BTW, every install gets the firmware upgrade, required or not.

Gary

[thewoodcrafter]

Gary,
That is the version I have been using for a while.
3.6.5 no problems.

[ken_rychlik]

Just for the record

My machine has not run well on ANY version of 3.6 software. I was told by Ryan that a coiled cord from the controller to the pc may do it and I unrolled it. The same problems are still there. I was told I am being sent a usb card for the controller. I'm still waiting on the mail man to see if it helps.

My machine runs great on 3.5.20, I "upgraded" the software to get ready for the ecab link and the machine is not reliable and a pain to work with. No cords or anything were changed between running the old software and the new.

I even asked thermwood if there is anything they can do to help, because I REALLY want to buy the ecab link.

I will be the first one to sing praises when the software issue is fixed for me, but so far it has just been frustration.

Kenneth

[zeke]

I feel your frustration. I'm still dealing with and working through losing position, broken bits, ruined product, etc. I have a question for those of you losing position as the problem seems to occur on pocketing cuts for me. I can't say with 100% confidence, that it is isolated to pocket cuts, but I can almost guarantee if I'm doing pocket cuts that 15-30 minutes into the cut I will lose position sometimes worse than others. Your feedback would be helpful on the pocket cuts. Has anyone lost position when cutting other than pocket cuts?

These software problems feel allot like a memory leak. What would be ideal is for Shopbot to develop or maybe we could find some software available that would take snapshots of all activities on the machine down to the code level, including network traces, machine cpu, memory, garbage collection, error logs, response times to and from the computer, whatever we can capture to narrow down these issues and go back and look at the logs these produce when we see a problem occur. In lieu of having some sophisticated debug tools, these type of problems will be pervasive for as long as we can stand it and we can only throw darts to try to determine the problem / use a process of elimination to resolve problems! Seems like there would be a significant benefit to Shopbot to develop a debugging tool like this or strike a deal with a company to help with this. The downside to some of these tools is that they in and of themselves sometimes cause issues due to the overhead, however I'd be willing to try just about anything to be able to trust my machine!

Here's an example of something along the lines of debugging software solutions, although this is probably cost prohibitive, although, if 100,000 of us chipped in $10 ($1,000,000) a piece or even more who knows what we could buy, I'd easily spend a $100 without blinking an eye to get rid of my current problem, not to mention the ones I'll be encountering over the years! A product like this for Shopbot's quality control would minimize the number of exceptions on new releases and hopefully speed up diagnosis and resolution.

https://h10078.www1.hp.com/cda/hpms/display/main/hpms_content.jsp?zn=bto&cp=1-11-15-25%5E761_4000_100__

The PDF in the link above

https://h10078.www1.hp.com/cda/hpdc/display/main/download_pdf_unprotected.jsp;jsessionid=CC0E66719D 2158FCAF4BF5E4F117E211.g1u1195c_13?zn=bto&cp=54_40 00_100

This software may not align with our environment, I wanted to paint a picture of what I am trying to convey, I'm going to look around and see if there is some debug software out there that may fit our environment with a descent price tag. If I find something I'll report back.

[navigator7]

How many of you have your SB puters connected to the internet?

[frank134]

HI. I don't know if this will help, But I also was having problem with the upgrades.I tryed everything I could think of and it just got worse till my computer crash. It was an old hp 4 pen with 2 meg of ram. So I got a new dual processor with 6 meg of ram. NO more problems. It been running great. Did the new computer up grade fix the problem. I don't really know. But since I replace it everything is better. I got the HP dc 5800 c2d E8400 model Ka502ua#aba with 6 Gb of ram from Tiger Direct.com. $550.00 Total. I figured if I am going to run A high proformance machine I should use high proformance gas. Anyway My prsalpha run 100% better. I only been using it for the last month. sign and cabinet with no problem. the prombem I had with zeroing it went away too ( that with the zero block) Sorry forgot to say I run 3.6.5 not 3.6.10 yet.

[dlcw]

I'm running a Dell Optiplex, 2.66ghz processor and 3GB ram with Windows XP dedicated to the Shopbot control software. If this isn't enough then something is really wrong with the software needing that much resource. My 'puter is NOT connected to the Internet and no anti-virus software is running on it. It is wireless connected to my main design computer so I can transfer files back and forth.

I don't know why all the problems are happening. The part that confuses me the most is that some people are just fine on one version and other people can't get anything done on that version. It's weird.

Every time I start my machine up for a cutting/carving session I walk in with a 50/50 feeling of whether it's going to work or not work. This is not a good feeling considering the jobs success or failure determines lost or gained revenue. This is unnerving to say the least. I would like to start each session with a better then 90/10 feeling that the job is going to complete successfully and I'm going to get paid by a satisfied customer, not have to explain why I'm late delivering to them. That is not a comfortable position to be in time and again.

Maybe for people purchasing a Shopbot in the future, they get the option to pay for it or not depending on whether it performs reliably every time they go to use it. Every time it has a brain-fart a percentage of the purchase price is deducted. Broken bits and destroyed/damaged material could also be deducted. Material used for testing a software upgrade could also be deducted. After 6 months of use and testing a final purchase price is determined based on how reliable the machine has been under production conditions. Just my random ramblings... :-)

Don
www.diamondlakewoodworks.com (http://www.diamondlakewoodworks.com)

[GlenP]

Hey guys, I am not running the new software for the fact that it seems to have gremlins and not trustworthy. As well I am not using the link either and use aspire but if there are so many issues with the link and new 3.6.? of the control software why not just go back to the way you were doing things and cutting before the link. It is fairly new and I am sure alot of you had been cutting and toolpathing using other software before this, why not just go back until it can be proven. I realize you have paid for this and would like to use it but if it ain't worth the headaches and uncertainty stop using it for now. Please don't take this the wrong way it is merely a observation as most of you guys that have posted above I have great respect for and admire your projects, in fact I wish I was closer to some and I might beg for a job (lol).

[ken_rychlik]

The best suggestion I have heard so far is to make the link work with sb3.5 software.

My machine is rock solid and dependable with that system running it.

Don, I don't think the pc is the issue. I sent in one that was acting up constantly and they told me it worked fine at the factory.

Tech support told me that the problems are very few and isolated. I think the reason for that is everyone has gone back to the old software except for the people that want to ues the link. I'm not to far behind them.

Kenneth

[thewoodcrafter]

Wow Kenneth!
I knew you sent in an acting up PC but didn't hear the out come.
It worked fine??

That means it is either the controller firmware or the USB interface on the PRT machines.

But I suspect it is several problems since new PRS machines are having problems also.

[courtney2018]

My vote goes to the controller software. ;o)

[Ryan P]

There are a lot of issue in this thread and we are trying to get them sorted out. I think Coutney had the best Idea for ShopBot to make a visit. Maybe we could have a volunteer to host ShopBot and those having problems with 3.6 versions. It would be good to have a location to where ShopBot could get most of the people having issues together. Who wants to volunteer?

[dlcw]

Ryan, thank you very much for making that offer from Shopbot. It goes to show that Shopbot support is second to none in the industry!

Boy, would I love to be at a session like that. The problem is I'm about as far away from NC as you can get within the continental US. Seattle is a little further.

I'd love to see Shopbot publish a findings paper after this type of session for the owners who couldn't make it.

[pfulghum]

On a more positive note...I've cut a couple sheets with the latest sofware without any glitchs.

One thing I have always done on the control PC is.


1) Install XP onto bare harddrive.
2) Install SB Control Software
3) Set Power Settings to Always On. Don't turn off my monitor or disk. Never Suspend
4) Turn off Screen Saver
5) No Network (wired or wireless)
6) No Anti-Virus
7) Turn off "Windows Search" (added in SP2)
8) Turn off any other Service that might want to run.

Just a bare bones XP (sp3) install .
I use a thumbdrive to move cut files back and forth.

Serial Speed test 72%

One more thing...Do not run your USB cable near any other cable (espcially spindle).

One more thing. Also do not loop your motor control cables to control the excess cable.

Just some pointers...

-- Pat

[courtney2018]

Thanks Ryan! I'm probably not the best to host since I'm not running my machine 8+ hours a day like some others here. Regardless, where ever you go and what ever you find we all would be interested in hearing. Perhaps something will come to light and we can start chasing down these gremlins.

[ken_rychlik]

You are welcome at my place anytime, but Texas is not very close to shopbot.

Ryan, I am sure that there are multiple issues at multiple shops, but the main ingredient that is the same with the problem shops is the upgraded software. I know you don't want to look there, but I think that's where you NEED to be looking. That is the common link to the issues everyone is facing. When folks go back to the older sb3.5.xx their problems dissapear.

If the link creates shopbot code, why can't we use the old sb3 that functions with it?

I don't want to go around any security issues for thermwood, but just want a machine that follows directions.

Kenneth

[ken_rychlik]

It seems to me like they opened a back door into the software to allow the ecab files to work with the machine and not loose their security. That back door entry seems to be clogging up the front door.

Kenneth

[Gary Campbell]

Ryan....
I mentioned to Bill Y. and will repeat for your ears. My machine is available for testing, both by SB staff and by phone. You can have it round the clock as long as needed. I will cut at night if I have to. I, like many others, have a vested interest in working out these irritating little bugs.


I have already invited Ted and his Scout, I now add you and/or any other staff to the list.

BTW current temps are low 80's with overnite lows in mid 70's

Gary

[courtney2018]

LOL...I'm enjoying my mid-70's during the day right now with the lows in the low 60's at night. ;o)

[Ryan P]

Kenneth,
The issues are with version 3.6.x this is where we are looking. There are a lot of other features in 3.6.x that are not about the Ecab link(The Ecab addition is a small part of version 3.6.). There were a lot of changes made in the 3.6 series some of the issues being reported are bugs we cannot. You can find the changes to SB3 in the readme file and the UpdateHistory.txt files found in the folder where you have installed ShopBot.

We are hoping to have a location to where users having an issue can visit. From those reporting issues looks like Georgia or Florida would be best.

[ken_rychlik]

Maybe its a southern confederacy issue. lol

Kenneth

[ken_rychlik]

Here is one of the things mine does. It takes a simple move command and won't do it. It shows it in the box below the command bar, but I have to hit enter again for it to take.

3694
I don't know if this helps or not, but I thought I would take a picture in action of a problem.

Kenneth

[Ryan P]

Kenneth,
Have you tried moving the computer away from the control box?

[ken_rychlik]

No Ryan, It is in the same place it has been working great on the older software since I bought it. The only change that made it behave badly is software. I really don't think moving the box will fix anything but if it will make you feel better I will try.

If you want pictures of the box and pc I will do that.

Do you have that card on the way for me?

Kenneth

[ken_rychlik]

Update, I tried. I have 4 feet of distance between the pc and controller. Same thing. Do you want another picture? Still ignoring keyboard commands around 30% of the time as well.

Kenneth

[Ryan P]

Kenneth,
Thank you for giving it a try.

[nat_wheatley]

I'm running 3.6.10 and the SB Link here. Many false 'limit switch hit' errors. I had 5 before 7 am Monday. I didn't have those with previous versions of the software. Nothing has changed but the control software.

The main issue I had before 3.6.10, but haven't had since, were depth errors. I'm only been using 3.6.10 for a week, and haven't had a faulty depth. I'll be switching back to 3.6.5, though, because I'm finding the faulty error switch hits are more of an obstacle than the occasional lost depth.

I do understand that things are being looked into, but I'll be pleased when things are ironed out. I'm not enjoying working around the bugs.

[ken_rychlik]

No problem Ryan. Anything I can do to try and help figure it out I will do.

I will hop on one leg and sing a song if you think it will help.lol

I got my new 'puter this afternoon. Plugged it in and had another issue of the command going below the bar where you enter them and not doing the command.

It does seem to be better about not ignoring me quite as much. I still need more time on it to say for sure though.

Kenneth

Kenneth

[Gary Campbell]

Nat...
Did you try running 3.6.10 with the limits off? (VN,0) Not a permanent solution... but keeps you going.
Gary

[nat_wheatley]

Works for me Gary, that's just what I'll do. Thanks once again.

[pfulghum]

I'm trying to help guys...

I have seen the following in a few threads...

Machine is physically stopped, but software is still running program and software thinks the machine is moving.

I have personally experienced this and so has "R Ball"

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/show.cgi?tpc=26&post=95747#POST95747


-- Pat

[Gary Campbell]

Pat...
I reported this mid June. I had a file with an unusual hand coded move in it for a special cut. It was listed as both an issue and repaired in the next version.
Gary

[knight_toolworks]

I have had the move issue machine stops software keeps going. or there is a jog command and the machine moves at move speed.

[robtown]

I'm happily running 3.5 on my old W2K workstation. SOLID as a rock.

You gys are welcome to come setup 3.6.10 on it at my shop and observe what happens.

[butch]

I have noticed that I have to hold the key, on the keyboard for a longer time. It is almost like the software ignores the first few times it should read the key stroke. But as I slow down my entry, and hesitate on the key, the software reads the key stroke and executes the command. Almost like it is not reading the commands right away. Sence I learned that, the only time I have problems is when I get in a hurry.
I have been blamming the gremlins....they have issues.

I also had problems with the limit switchs. I called ShopBot and they had me turn off some items. I wrote it down, but better call SB and get it right. Once I made the changes, I haven't had a problem with the limit switchs and they have worked properly sence.
By the way, I had these problems with 3.6.5. I haven't installed 3.6.10 yet.

[jerry_stanek]

It seems like any time a computer is not reading the key stroke right away there is something running in the back round. Bring up the task monitor and look to see what is running and watch the cpu usage.

[ken_rychlik]

I went through all the items from the site that Dana Swift suggested higher up in this thread. On both pc's actually. I do feel it helped some, but things are still not right.

I am still hopefull that the old prt (2004) will run on the new software one day.

[jerry_stanek]

My new PRS doesn't run on the new software

[ken_rychlik]

Jerry

Please describe what it does or does not do. It may help.

Kenneth

[jerry_stanek]

I get stuttering and lost steps also the not taking the command on the first try. Weird sounding steppers when moving. The stuttering happens on both my PR with the 4g upgrade and my PRS standard.
Along with the not taking the commands.

[ken_rychlik]

ok, thanks

Did you update the firmware also?

I don't know why they don't have it AUTOMATICALLY do that and any other necessary steps to make it run properly when the software starts up the first time.

KR

[jerry_stanek]

yes I upgraded my firmware The best version that I have found is the 3.5.9 that came with my 4g upgrade.

[Gary Campbell]

Update to this post....
I went thru a set of steps with Ryan this morning to uninstall SB3 and clean out old settings and registry entries. A clean install of 3.6.10 followed using all the OEM default settings.

Have had a couple minor glitches, but nothing similar to my recent happenings. It seems that a couple of the 25+ versions I have gone back and forth to and from may have left a few "hanging chads" of info on my computer.

Don Thomson is also going to test his machine in the same way to see if there will be an improvement on his machine.

There is a major improvement in my machines actions. I was able to cut files that gave me problems on 3.6.10. last week. It is cutting about like my "old" machine used to! It is too early to give a definate reccommendation, but early reports are good!

Hang in there! More to come! As more machine versions come online with this, more data and therefore more fixes can be made.
Gary

[dlcw]

An update from Gary's post.

I tried running an SB Link file to cut some parts. This job has a tool change and since I don't have the money for an ATC it is a manual tool change.

When prompted to bring up the keyboard control dialog I said Yes. I did my bit change. Hit escape. At this point execution is supposed to zero the bit to the top of the material. Didn't happen. When the keyboard control dialog disappeared after hitting escape I saw in the code display screen the program was frozen on the SK command that brought the keyboard control dialog box up. I tried hitting enter and I started getting dialogs saying comm error, comm lost, etc. Then I got the dialog that says Quit, Resume, et al. Before I could click a button I got the big yellow shopbot dialog saying it brain-farted and was shutting down. This is the one that gives you no option but to quit and exit.

So now I have a job on hold until this problem can be resolved.

This happened two times in a row even after rebooting the machine.

Shopbot support has been sent an email and a voice message.

Don
www.diamondlakewoodworks.com (http://www.diamondlakewoodworks.com)

[ken_rychlik]

I got a call too. Went through everything he suggested. Even on the pc that was new and never had other versions on it. I have had decent luck running some files on it. It has not put any more commands in the green box without running them,(so far) but is still ignoring the keyboard commands quite often. I was told to use the mouse to enter move commands, but that's a pain when you are running around the machine setting stuff up. I'm still hoping for a fix on that.

Kenneth

[Gary Campbell]

Don...
I will run a file or two that has a manual toolchange included to see how it works on my machine.
Gary

[mark_stief]

I did the same thing Gary did about a week ago with the same results gave the keyboard a good cleaning and them troubles seemed to be helped too the only problem I have now is it keeps saying on my spindle speed control the program is not responding but I can live with that

[Gary Campbell]

Guys......
Spoke too soon. I am experiencing multiple issues. Don's SK issue is repeatable on my machine. More testing to come
Gary

[dlcw]

Ryan at Shopbot indicated they have a problem with the SK command. Gary and I have been sent a software version we are going to test and see if that problem is worked out.

For clarification to everyone, all this testing is being done on version 3.6.10. I'm using SB Link v15. I figure this will drive the shopbot software pretty good considering tool changes and what not.

More testing tomorrow, 11-15-09, and I'll report back when I have some results.

Don

[GlenP]

Sorry to hear that things are still acting up. Thought things were looking up. I know this isn't related to your issues but but everyone needs a chuckle to lighten our mood. Sure made me laugh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE6PNps5N9I
Good luck guys.

[Gary Campbell]

Glen...
In the past when we could make "glitches" repeatable they have been fixed in short order. I am sure we will be OK tomorrow. My report after noon when I am done cutting.
Gary

[dlcw]

Glen,

Thanks for the youtube link. Needed that one today.

Don

[Gary Campbell]

UPDATE:
(stated with cautious optimism) All files that produced errors yesterday, were rerun today using the new version sent and did NOT produce those errors on my machine. Testing to continue on a daily basis.

3.6.11beta4 on my machine, AND NOT GOING BACKWARDS!
Gary

[steve4460]

If you have one of those keyboards that has a bunch of shortcut buttons on it. Then change it to a plain regular keyboard and your problems shuld go away .

[bill]

If this is of any help...... To avoid a lot of issues this is what I do/don't do.
#1 Computer to desktop and WAIT 5 min. for the system to "get it together".
This has eliminated 99% of my "Comm Drops".

#2 Start SB3 and wait for the +24VDC to become active (approx 3 sec.). I added a 24VDC lamp to the control box.
#3 CAUTION as to your "clicking"....
Don't (as my wife calls it) "woodpecker click" the manual keys or keyboard.
Don't "double click" the HOME icon.
These WILL give errors.
I am running XP w/SB Ver. 3.5.18
3695
There are other error producing situations, just can't remember them right now. (I'm old)

[ken_rychlik]

Thanks Bill, but we are not talking about the old SB3 software. It works fine on most machines.

Gary, are you making sawdust with that Beta version? What about keyboard commands being ignored with it?

Kenneth

[dlcw]

Kenneth,

I've run the new beta's on a couple of sheets using SB Link cut files. These files incorporate manual bit changes plus other stuff. So far the results have been promising. I did have a problem that happened twice and hasn't happened since then, but it wasn't during the actual cutting process. It was while SB3 was sitting idle in the background while SB Link was creating a cut file. Shopbot is looking at it.

Other then that, I'm ok with the new release. I will be cutting about 6 more sheets today and will hopefully have some more warm and fuzzies to post here.

Don

[dlcw]

Update to newest beta version of SB3.

I ran an additional 5 sheets of plywood using SB Link generated cutting files and I didn't have s single hiccup in the whole operation. The latest beta seems to be very stable.

One recommendation before installing the newest version - first, completely clean your computer of anything SB3 software related. This includes the Windows registry. I'm hoping Ryan at Shopbot will provide these instructions with the new release.

Gary and I both did a cleanup of SB3 harddrive litter and that really helped a lot!

Don

[GlenP]

That is good news guys, keeping my fingers crossed for ya. So perhaps Gremlins are contributing to some issues, past versions gremlins. I wonder if what you are finding out about cleaning SB3 off before installing updates has ever had anything to do with some minor issues others have had in the past, even with 3.5 version. Seems everyone gets little hiccups and perhaps a good cleaning is in order for most of us. I am going to stay with my 3.5.20 for now as I don't use the link. Good luck guys.

[Gary Campbell]

Don is right...
Software responds much better with clean install. A couple small gremlins that 90% of users wont ever see are being worked on as we speak. Cut a few hours of 3d file today, 8 hr file tomorrow. We'll see how it works. 3D doesnt seem to tax the software like cabinet cutting. (and no vacs running, for those who have heard mine!)
Gary

[nat_wheatley]

Running 3.6.10, and had a depth issue, again, today.
I'm cutting laminate faced panels, and all the parts on the last sheet were left with a slight burr on the underside, as they hadn't been cut completely through. All parts on the first 8 sheets were fine. Required filing the backside of 30 parts, has happened a number of times now, amount of depth error is not consistent per occurance.

Is anyone else experiencing similar?

[courtney2018]

I cut another prototype neck out yesterday and had zero problems. I'm running 3.5.20 and that's where I shall stay for now. It ran for about 2.5 hours without stopping and no issues. I'm happy. I feel like I can trust it.

If a clean install is the trick it would be nice to have the instructions on how to do so so everyone can do the same thing. I know I've got other versions registered on my machine before I got to 3.5.20.

[jerry_stanek]

Courtney don't you know the old saying "If it aint broke don't fix it". If your happy with the results the run with it. Hope the gremlins are gone just don't invite them back.

[bill.young]

Hey Nat,

Do you have a vac holddown system that draws through an mdf-type spoilboard? If so you would be amazed at how much thinner the spoilboard gets after the vac runs for a while...your spoilboard surface may be moving down rather than your z moving up.

Jay Wyant did some measurements of how much the top of his spoilboard moved down over time when his vac was running...maybe he'll jump in with some data.

Bill

[nat_wheatley]

Bill,

It's a markedly different depth on the sheets where there are the error. I've had as much as a 1mm skin, left on parts, for an entire sheet. The sheet before and the sheet after cut fine.

Nat

[ken_rychlik]

Nat, How deep do you normally cut into your spoil board on the final cut?

Kenneth

[nat_wheatley]

.4mm

[bill.young]

ahhh...if the sheet after it cuts fine without re-zeroing then that rules out my theory.

There is an amazing amount of movement in the spoilboard from the Vac, though...I rezero the Z every hour or two when I'm cutting sheets that are depth critical, especially when it's humid.

[ken_rychlik]

I think you are on the edge. I run .020 which is a little over .5mm

I agree it's kind of odd to have sheets before and after run fine though.

KR

[beacon14]

Nothing wrong with .4mm. I used 0.012" or .3mm until recently, have been experimenting with .01" or .25mm lately with good results. My table and spoilboard are stable and flat, otherwise it might not work so well.

Bill, never thought about the spoilboard shrinking as air movement pulls moisture out. If the ambient relative humidity levels vary over the course of the day the effect would likely be greater. We can usually cut all day without re-zeroing, although I have had to lower the bit by a few thousandths on occasion - now I know why.

[bill.young]

Dave and Nat,

Got this info from Jay, with times and the amount that his spoilboard "shrunk" in thickness as the vacuum motors ran. He stopped measuring after 71 minutes because it seemed like it had stabilized at -.023".

8 minutes -0.008"
13 minutes -0.010"
58 minutes -0.022"
71 minutes -0.023"

Jay uses the Lighthouse vacuums, but I'm not sure how many or what configuration.

Bill

[Gary Campbell]

Another day in with ver 3.6.11b5. Day was spent cutting 2d and 3d files in 2" Mahogany. 14 hrs cutting on these pieces over 2 days and a half day tomorrow to wrap it up. I have reported a couple things, but no, they turned out to be a dead short between the keyboard and the floor. Ol fart brain fart.

Gary

[beacon14]

Bill what material is his spoilboard made of? What was the initial thickness? There's bound to be more shrinkage while the spoilboard is thick and less as it gets surfaced thinner.

[bill.young]

Hey David,

I don't know for sure but my guess is Trupan...it's easily available around here. I'm sure there are lots of variables effecting how fast it happens and to what degree... spoilboard thickness, humidity, the power of your vacuum, the amount of spoilboard that's uncovered, etc.

Just something to be aware of if you find your depths gradually getting off during the course of a day's cutting.

[ed_lang]

Ted Hall told Jay and I about this the last time he was in our shops. I took my dial indicator over with a mag base and Jay had a 24" or so chunk of C channel left over from building his ShopBot table. We put the C channel on his trupan table and stuck the dial indicator on it. The indicator was zeroed under the gantry with the ShopBot turned off. When the four vacuum motors (about the same specs as the Lighthouse ones) were turned on we made sure the dial was reading zero 0.00" It was very easy to see the dial moving as the seconds ticked past. We both were shocked at how much movement took place. This explained what Jay noticed from the very first cuts he had made with his machine. That is a sheet of plywood would start to cut just fine and as the job ran on the cuts got shallow and finally didn't cut all the way. Jays shop in not climate controlled. On my machine I performed the same test with much less compression of the Trupan. My shop is climate controlled and I expect the humidity plays a big part in this. I don't recall the thickness of either of our spoilboards at the time. We both were using 3/4" Trupan from Atlantic Plywood from their Richmond, Va location.

I have now moved to dedicated fixturing and do not use a Trupan spoilboard unless I have a one off job. I have moved from a 4' X 8' machine to a PRSalpha 4'X4' machine. I still run my plywood support and plenum with 1/2" MDO fixtures on top. I use 1/4" holes and pins to locate the fixtures on the machine. AllStar gasketing is used on the top of the fixture. I have gone back to using two Fein vacs to hold parts. I just have not hooked up my 4 Lighthouse motors to the new machine yet. I get 0.00" of compression on the current setup. Jay has also changed to this on the critical depth projects he makes more than one of as well. Jay is still using Trupan for the zones that he cuts sheet goods on. I also use Trupan located on the machine by the same 1/4" pins when I need to use it.

I hope this helps everyone to understand what Ted Hall told us, and what we found out when testing for ourselves.

Ed

[navigator7]

Riveting discussion.
What does anybody think about pulling a vacuum on an MDO spoil board while introducing a sealer?

[ed_lang]

MDO will not make a good spoilboard since MDO is plywood with paper and resin on both sides. MDF will make a OK spoilboard but Trupan is better due to the ability to move more air through it.

[thomas_little]

Has Anyone had a problem upgrading the control software and the machine not running at the correct speed its seems to be in slow mode. No problems with the older versions though.