ModelMill 3D CAD/CAM Software

[trent]

We're thinking about purchasing:

1. SHOPBOT
2. MODELMILL
3. PC SYSTEM

Since we're starting from scratch, we could really use your advice!

What things should we look for, or avoid? Is the modelmill software totally compatible, or does it take some extra funky components to get it to work?

How powerful of a computer should we buy? Can we get by with a $300 133mhz Pentium with 64MB RAM, is it worth it to get a 1.2 ghz, w/256 RAM for $2,000 and up?

THANKS A LOT FOR YOUR HELP!!!

Trent Mueller
Art Signs, Inc.
Please send email to: trentmueller@yahoo.com (mailto:trentmueller@yahoo.com)

[flyboy]

HOW MUCH $$ IS MODELMILL??????

[rusty]

Trying to reach Paul.
e-mail address: pauln@ncc4u.com (mailto:pauln@ncc4u.com) does not work.
Can anyone help me to get in touch with Paul?
Thanks.

Got your address from ShopBot forum.
Can not get your URL (web site to work).
In the process of buying a ShotBot, but my problem is what software to
purchase. Getting very confused about the choices. I will be doing
signs but will be mostly making moulds for resins, urethanes or poured
metal or finished 3D pieces that will be covered with different
coatings.
You seem to like ModelMill. Why? Can ModelMill create or do textures?
Would appreciate any help/advice you can give me.
Talk to you later.
Where do you live? I live in Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Rusty


Rusty

[garbob]

The last that I heard from him he had started working for Glentek http://www.glentekcnc.com/index4.htm - but that was about a year ago.

I hope that this helps

[b1705@bellatlantic.net]

Don, I saw the Model Mill program at the Atlantic City Sign Show, and was equally impressed! It had a pretty logical interface, great on screen graphics, and the products they displayed in their booth were exceptionally clean (of course this was a trade show, and you would expect that..).
I spoke with Ted earlier in the week and suggested that Shopbot re-open the concept of a "Camp Shopbot" dedicated this time to doing 3-D work on the machine. There seems to be enough of us interested now to generate a group meeting where we could pick brains on the "probe"feature, 3-D digitizers, and software such as Model Mill's'. I don't know if anyone else is interested, but this might be the place to let Raleigh know about it...

[birdsfoplay]

Don and ED

Agreed ... whole heartedly ... here here

3D has to be a passion.

Here's what I've been thinking re software ...

My CAD ( MicroStation ) allows for the user to create Macros and also to do some additions and reprogramming of the CAD features.
To that end I have tried to create a set of planes that all pass thru the 3D solid that has been created in CAD. Then each of those planes is exported to "yet another" file that will contain the "outline" of the slice it makes thru the solid.
Real thick solids with very tight plane placments will, unfortunately, create a BUNCH of seperate files.
Still, one would have a "cut by cut" set of files for hog out of the "OUTLINE" only of the solid.
Each file would have to have the original outline increased by the bit parameters as well as duplicated ( I use "copy parallel" ) until the limits of the original block of material have been removed.
Copy parallel works like an expansion of the original perimiter. To use it in a macro would be a little tricky if there were more than one "island" . Thats where the serious programming comes in.
In summation and ...
To be sure, I "know" why the 3D CAM programs cost so much ... the programmers had to put a lot of blood sweat and tears into their creation.
Unfortunately there's an army of "scrupulous" Salesman out there adding their "cut" TO your payment/costs, and driving costs even higher.

Personally I just dont have the "time" resources to devote to developing a 3D CAM alternative especially when I believe as I stated in my original 3D posting.

It all boils down to ... Bucks and/or Time ...
and wheather its worth it for your operation.

The reason I'm getting philosophical about it is that I tend to spend too much time dreaming about this 3D Holy Grail. I believe I should use whatever creativity I have left to use the SB in more realistic pursuits.
Given that thinking I hate to see a whole bunch of similar nonproductive activity.

[pauln@ncc4u.com]

I would like to put another thought in here on 3D, and ModelMill.
I am a ModelMill and ShopBot owner, and have spent a fair amount of
time learning and working with this product. Please understand I've
not used any of the other 3D products that are on the market, so ALL
of my knowledge is with ModelMill.

The program is like the very very best word-processor program, it will
only perform at the ability of its user.

I'm rather new ( 1-year ) to cnc and all that it provides, but if it
had not been for ShopBot, I could not have afforded to get into the field.

ModelMill, is like that also, if it had not been for ModelMill, I would
not be doing 3D today. SO, yes its one of the highest priced programs
I own, but so is the ShopBot, one of the highest priced tools I own.

I think the quality of your finished product will justify the additonal
time that it will take to product it. Much the same as a "hand-carved'
item versus a molded copy.

If anyone is interested, I would be more than happy to help where and
how I can. If your interested in a demo copy I can help with that too.
Or, if you want to see some samples I will help there also.

Thanx.....Paul

[arthur_ross]

A note on carving time:

A program like ModelMill or some of the CAD/CAM programs create their 3D figures by "scanning" back and forth across the material with the toolbit.

A program like ScanVec EnRoute creates "hand carved look" lettering by doing a center line cut on the letters, with fancy 3D moves at the corners to get square corners. This is quite fast, because it's only removing the material for the letters.

Carved letting seems to be about 90 percent of the requirement for carving, with perhaps some hand work for odd 3D shapes (often manufactured seperately and added on).

The professional signmakers I know love CNC signmaking because they don't have the time to learn hand carving, and they don't want to pay someone else hand carving prices.

Arthur Ross
Deltamation Inc.
www.signsontap.com

[Jay Meadors]

I have done some simple signage using the typeset program that you can download off the SB site. Creating the cut files has been very straightforward - these are incised letters on a flat board - and the results have been very good.

As for 3D objects, I have written SB command files that will cut 3D shapes that would be difficult or impossible to cut without CNC. The resulting parts are then used one element of piece of furniture, for example, which was otherwise made with standard wood working tools.

Specifically, I wrote a parameterized macro to cut equiangular spirals [r=a^(theta cot a)] into a block of wood. The results were very well received by the customer, who can now baffle and amaze his math prof friends with the finished "snails".

But getting back to the subject at hand, a cut file is really what we are trying to end up with here, and I have yet to find a commercial CAD/CAM package that is:
-easy to learn and use (what was I thinking?)
-reasonably priced,
-has a well integrated tool-path generator.

Thoughts, anyone?

Ps. - I do like the ModelMill demo, the interface looks well thought out, and it seems able to create tool paths - now, about that price issue...

[J.E.T]

I have not seen the ModelMill software in action but, Wart Hog CNC mach site does have an example of a horse head done with it however, if you read carefully they designed the horse head with Rhino 3d Nurbs modeler program. Cost of Rhino is $795. I downloaded the Rhino demo program a while back to aquaint myself with the aspect of 3d modeling. Lets face it the 3d world is expensive and time consuming. As a cost effective answer, has anyone purchased SB's digital probe? If so how about some feed back
Thanks Ellen
P.S. Thanks for all the EMail re: our upcoming instructional section on our site the first lesson is almost ready to go and we will post here when it is on board.

[seaside@esva.net]

Bob,

You can find out about Rhino at Rhino3d (http://www.rhino3d.com). They have a 30 day downloadable version and a good tutorial, but like all 3d modeling software the learning curve is pretty steep.

You're right about probing a conductive surface using just a metal rod or paper clip. I tried to find some electrically conducting paint to coat patterns with for the same purpose, but haven't had much luck so far.

There is a probing routine included in all the beta2 software downloads that does just what you describe. For best results, make sure your metal probing tool has the same end shape as the bit you are going to cut with.

Bill

[J.E.T]

Rhino also has a manual aval at Amazon.com for $39.00. It is a fun program to get the feel of 3d view points and is easy to learn the 3d modeling lingo. Rhino also has a text portion with a wide selection of fonts. The text is automatically projected as 3d, but I have not tried to export as dxf and tried a cut. thanks for the probe tip. Sounds like that would be the way to go for a cost effective answer to 3d. Hatching or pocketing around your pattern, then doing a tiff conversion for the detail work also works for small detailed signs and designs.
Thanks Ellen

[Jay Meadors]

Hey Paul - I tried sending you an email, but it bounced back - do you have a new email address?

[pauln@ncc4u.com]

Jay.....

e-mail is: pauln@ncc4u.com (mailto:pauln@ncc4u.com)

Give her another try !!

Paul

[bwclark@centurytel.net]

Ok, I will pipe in on this one. I bought a
digital probe for a small mill I have and it has
worked pretty good BUT the input data is strickly
left to right and right to left height data
(similar to the Tif2Sbp output). Being unhappy
with this, I have started working on a program
that will "mesh" this data to give a more
"surface" like appearance that can then be milled
by a 3D cam program (such as Modelmill or
AlphaCAM).

Anyways, the program is far from finished
(generating quality data) but as soon as I am
finished with that, I will write a ShopBot
importer (right now it only works with G-code).

This should help get data into these 3D modeling
programs from your Shopbot.

Now, as for doing 3D, it facinates me, but I
doubt that _I_ could make a living doing it. It
all depends on the market. For example, Don
showed me a picture of the work he does (at the
BIG Show) and he definately is an artist and has
the market for 3D signage.

Lastly, ModelMill is pretty neat. I got the
demo, but I have a hard time justifing the cost
for _MY_ work. If I get some 3D jobs and the jobs
will pay for a seat of ModelMill, I would
definately give it a second look, as it is HALF
the cost of the next competeing product (ArtCam
from Delcam).

Just my $.02...

Bruce Clark
bwclark@centurytel.net (mailto:bwclark@centurytel.net)

[jimt]

I'll add a note about probong your part by covering it with aluminum foil and using the z-zero type program. I have tried this (before the probe idea came along) and had limited sucess. Seems like the foil to tool/probe connection resulted in a lot of "switch bounce" (getting multiple hits from one contact). I was getting multiple stops at the same point and having trouble moving to the next point as when the tip started up, another point would get hit. My thought was to design some kind of relay circuit that would limit filter out all the secondary contacts, but I never go around to it.

Jim

[SaintJohnBosco@yahoo.com]

Turning off the switch on contact is what I have done. This allows for one contact to be made then after pulling up the software switch is reenabled. This way bounching is not an issue.

[cwho@mountainmax.net]

Hmm,

We purchased the ShopBot specificaly for doing 3D. We build architectual models and needed to mill large topos. No the software is not cheap - about the same investment as the Shopbot. We use FormZ and Rhino ($ 1400 and $800ish) to generate the forms. Then we output an STL file (becasue I hate messing with DXF and STL has plenty of detail for a "scan" type milling) We have been evauating two tool path generation programs. The first and easiest is Deskproto - www.deskproto.com. It does a very good job of generating 3 axis tool paths that are suitable for the shopbot and it is easy to make a machine tool setup that looks very much like the SB. Deskproto outputs G code that is easily read and converted by the SB translator.
It does take a LONG time to mill. 5.5 hours for the hogging pass on a 30 x 40 x 10" topo base - and that is out of foam running a 5/8 router at 5.5 IPS . We will then use a 1/4 end mill to polish it up ( which is still pretty rough) (if you are wondering about those Shopbot specs - er yeah - we had the Z axis extended and bigger gears which gives us less power but more speed.) The hogging pass was 17K lines of code - the polish will is about 40K.
Deskproto has a free 30 day fully functional demo so you can actually make parts BUT- Make sure you have some 3d parts on hand or play with 3d cad first. Once you load Deskproto you really have only 30 days before you gota buy! If you are new to 3D cad it will take most of your free time for 3 weeks to get parts that you like.
I also got a copy of Model Mill but I was not immediately impressed for our use - Don't get me wrong - it seemed like a great interface - I just did not want to learn annother CAD program and I think for the money I preferred Deskproto for generating tool paths.

My bottom line is that 3D CAD is comming fast. I am waiting for MetaCreations to post a demo of CARRARA to their website - it is supposed to be very easy to use and is only $400. Also Amorphium at play.com is pretty cool at $100 but not too useful for real parts - at least as far as I could tell from the demo.

I see our ShopBot as an output tool for 3D, but I separate the idea and learning of 3D cad from learning machining. I spent the last 4 days, 10 hours a day fighting with the machining end - I had the part I wanted on the computer - I just had to figure out mills and feedrates and tool chatter, dust collection etc which is all totally new to me. Then I go back to trying to improve my 3D drawing skills to get more and better parts to output.

The seccond piece of software that I am very excited about is Millit (www.millit.com) Unfortunately, their demo is not fully fuctional and perhaps their software isn't quiet yet either. It sells for only $900
and looks like it can do some really cool stuff. Problem here is that it only outputs DIN/ISO code (at least in the basic version) and I do not know if the G code translator will handle this flavor as well as FAUNC. Does anyone know??

Makig 3D parts is not impossible - just a different set of skills. ( I cannot make a table that is level or even a sign that is readable - well now I can! :-) ) Like many - the functionality and price of the Shopbot makes it possible for us.

Charles

ps sorry for all the typos - neeeed sleeeep....

[ddchap@ix.netcom.com]

Ed:
ModelMill's website (modelmill.com)has info touting the advantages of using ModelMill and a supposedly readily available USGS digital database to easily generate topo models. All I know is what is on their website, but it looked intriguing.

[pauln@ncc4u.com]

If anyone would like a sample file from ModelMill to cut, please let me know, as I have a
full version, and have worked with the product for several months.

I will also convert your file to ModelMill if you are interested in seeing that.

Also watch our new web page, as we will be adding more and more data in the coming days.

(( www.route-it.com ))

Paul Nielsen

[cwho@mountainmax.net]

Ed,

We use Form Z specifically because it has a 3D terrain generation subroutine. YOu can give it the polylines and the boundary and tell it teh step height is .25" (say 2' contours at 1" = 8' scale) Click and $1400 later there is your terrain model!. Yo have achoice of stepped contours, and various mesh models.

wihout Form Z you still probably don't need to redraw but you probably will have to do more by hand. I imagine that Autocad must have a similar utility. To do it by hand, you need to add the Z elevations to your 2 d polylines and then apply some sort of mesh to them. RHino will do this. Once you have this then you still need to generate tool paths.

It seems as if I need to look at Model Mill again. presumablly it will take the data from above and generate the g code. Deskproto definately will. Export form your cad file as an STL and then load this geometry into Deskproto.

What are the other file imputs for Model Mill? DXF, STL? Thanks

Chalres

[pauln@ncc4u.com]

FYI

For you that have followed the 3D players, might find it interesting to know that "ModelMill" and "EnRoute" will soon be one in the same program.

Look at the Scanvec web page for the details:
http://www.scanvec.com/whatsnews/agreement.html

Very Interesting !!!

Paul

[signguy@rcn.com]

DeskArt available at http://www.deskam.com/
Works well !!!

[signguy@rcn.com]

Your right Bruce, I've tried that too.

A simple routine for making a 3d letter is
to start in Corel Draw and contour(s) the letters
to the inside or outside to a different shade and
export a TIFF file.

It's difficult to assign
the proper color value, I've tried working
RGB palletes etc,.. I dont own Autocad.
Perhaps someone has tried this ?

In Deskart it is rather difficult to set
the depth precisely, and I haven't a clue how it determines step resolution. It also generates Gcode but the shopbot conversion program worked.

Upside is, it will generate a DXF file, so you can import it into Vector, or a graphics program to generate a picture for a client, that shows 3d relief.

Useful on a signmaker budget.

[pauln@ncc4u.com]

Yet another program to look at !!!

DELCAM, has "MillWizard", and its only $250.00 !!

Also, has an eval copy at:

http://www.millwizard.com/Main.htm


Paul

[signguy@rcn.com]

Thanks for the tip Paul, I haven't tried model
mill or any of the the other full package
programs. But this demo seems to work just fine
with ( giggle ) 3d DXF objects from
-> Pixel 3D !! (~$69)
(which also accepts an eps input file from Corel Draw)
Anybody have any other favorite cheapies like Pixel 3D for generating 3d DXF's ??

[signguy@rcn.com]

Thanks for the tip Paul, I haven't tried model
mill or any of the the other full package
programs. But this demo seems to work just fine
with ( giggle ) 3d DXF objects from
-> Pixel 3D !! (~$69)
(which also accepts an eps input file from Corel Draw)
Anybody have any other favorite cheapies like Pixel 3D for generating 3d DXF's ??

[signguy@rcn.com]

To head off massive email requests ( ok I have one so far Pixel 3d is http://store.yahoo.com/forwarddesign/
a demo is available
it is $39
Just enter some text into the "logo wizard" and save objects (in file command )
as autocad dxf open it int the mill wizard demo and specify direction as front
best regards

[arnold@koyote.com]

We are thinking about buying a shopbot with 3D probe. We were wondering if anyone has any experience or advice for making gunstocks. Could this possibly be used to do od and id demensions for gunstocks. If you have anyone that you could refer me to, I would appreciate it.
Thanks!
Rebecca
T/S

[birdsofplay]

Soap Box and Sour Grapes:

Doing 3D takes a huge amount of machine time per piece, IMHO ( and my experience).
Even if you have a hiend CNC Mill it takes hours of time to get thru the hog out phase and then go back over it for smooth out.
Even Stereo Lithography requires hours. Over night is the norm for lots of it's jobs.

I've done some stuff with the tif 2 sbp converter,
with relative success. Thanks to Bruce Clark :-)
Even so, they needed lots of sanding to become respectable.
To make any money at 3D you'd have to charge ...
"like and artist" because quantitys are NOT going be possible, unless you own a "farm" of shopbots.

My question then is ...
How many "pieces" will it take just to pay off the ModelMill purchase alone ?
And ModelMill is fairly reasonable compared to UGShop, or ArtCAM or most of the other 3D CAM programs.

the challenge of 3D for ones own personal satisfaction and accomplishment is a great pursuit/hobby.
I'm "with you" as far as that goes.
Thats where I'm at with 3D.
Don't get me wrong ...
I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with SB. I love my SB .. really, it's wonderfull !!!
I just have seen this 3D discussion rearing it's head many times and never seen anyone present a viable, economical solution yet.

If you guys ever figure out how to do it without selling off your first born or "left" body parts, please let us know.
I'm willing to help and I'm always looking around for alternatives ...

However, for now I'm pretty much disgruntaled at the whole pursuit and have given it up as a practical/affordable/moneymaking outlet for me.

Ok maybe I'm just feeling grumpy today, sorry !
Snow bound, cabin fever and all :-( sigh

[birdsofplay]

Does Rhino do the tool paths as well or is it just a 3D modeler package ?

We all use the "contact plate" for zeroing our Z depth, I presume.
So ... if one were to cover their "3d part to be digitized" with aluminum foil, and mould it nicely around that part, then ...
We oughta be able to chuck up any old metal "point contact" as our probe.
Hook up the aluminum foil to the same switch as your Z-zero plate and edit the 3D probe program to work with that switch and Wah Lah !!! no probe needed !

[birdsofplay]

Bill .. Good point re the "touching tool"
also steep is the "word of the day" ... heed it !
3D just aint easy in any context.

Well, the reason I asked RE Rhino is because the toolpath issue is not trivial.
A program that makes allowances for your clamping locations, orginal block size and toolpath verification would also be necessary in addition to Rhino.

I already have 3D capability in MicroStation Modeler and Solid Edge. Neither of which make one feel "artisticly free" when developing the 3D model ( IMHO ).

Sure patterning unused areas is a viable "workaround" but not the most comprehensive or efficient way to develop ones toolpaths. I've tried that when developing raised letter signage. At issue was the cutting order of the patterning. It seems that the patterning moves were cut in a left to right motion and in the order that they were placed.
Yep, you guessed it ...
each pattern line was cut then a big return to left end and then the next cut. That resulted in lots of "overhead", nonproductive or wasted moves.

The "workaround" is to develop your own pattern and place "it" instead of the "canned" patterns that came with the program.

To do hog outs one would have to do all the above on each level ( or plane ) of cutting. And we are back to my observation regarding time or money :-(

Still feeling trapped .. Bob

[birdsofplay]

OK then ...

Either
1. ) 3M77 the part before aluminum foiling
OR
2. ) make a probe out of a good quality snap action microswitch.

I'm ceratinly no expert myself, but ...
This aint rocket science either :-)

This SB stuff is just too much FUN :-) !

[edcoleman]

Bob:

I understand your point. I've tried doing a couple of things using the 3D clipart from www.indepthsystems.com It does take quite a long time to create a nice piece. Like you, I don't think the machine time and the 3D software costs can easily be returned with 3D projects (you'd just have to charge too much $$$). 2D work is far more profitable.

With all that being said, I still am intrigued by the 3D aspect of the shopbot. There's no doubt that the machine has the capability to create these pieces, the problem is the design of the toolpaths in a cost effective way. At this point in time I don't see myself putting down a couple of thousand dollars for a 3D program. However, you can do some nice 3D stuff within turbocad. The point where I've stumbled is taking a 3D surface in turbocad and creating toolpaths.

But, back to Bill's point: if there ever was a seminar to teach 3D techniques (with affordable software) I would be VERY interested in it!

-Ed

[edcoleman]

Charles:

I'm intrigued by the idea of creating topo models. I have done some geographic illustrations that include topo lines as polylines and one of the projects I've always had in the back of my head was turning these drawings into physical models. When I drew them, there was no thought given to 3D modeling, the topo lines were just there to indicate elevations on a printout. My question to you is: how would you suggest going about creating a 3D surface from this info? Would it be simpler to almost start from scratch? Any insights would be appreciated, thanks.

-Ed

[donchapman]

At the Ft. Worth Best In Graphics show last weekend, I saw a demo of ModelMill 3D CAD/CAM software (www.modelmill.com). I brought home one of their CD demos and am very impressed with the apparent power and user friendliness of the program. Two or three CNC router manufacturers at the show were using it and it was even recommended to me by a salesman for one of its competitors. So I'm seriously considering paying the (gulp) $3,000 that it sells for. I'm a sign maker and have been using LetterArt, CorelDRAW, and Arts & Letters for many years, but have never worked with any true 3D CAD/CAM programs. I'd like to hear from any ShopBotters who have any experience using ModelMill on their ShopBot or who have found any comparable program that is good for signmaking on a ShopBot.

[donchapman]

One market for 3D is high-end signs. My hand carved signs sell for $100+/sq.ft., meaning thousands of dollars for most of my signs. The problem is that they are so labor intensive that I often end up making only $15/hr from a two or three thousand dollar sign. I can already see that the time I save doing so-called 2.5D with my new ShopBot is going to pay for the machine very quickly, but still leave me doing a lot of hand carving, which isn't necessarily bad since my love of carving is what got me into this business.
But sign magazines have articles every month with signmakers telling how much their $40,000+ CNC routers have helped their business. I'm sure a lot of that use is with 2.5D instead of 3D. but I also see 3D output. I don't know why a ShopBot with a moderately fast computer and similar software shouldn't be able to approximate the same results with much lower investment in equipment. A salesman for one of those high-end CNC router companies effectively agreed when I told him I own a ShopBot and asked him about buying his company's 3D software and he quietly directed me to his software competition, ModelMill.
I'm not worried that a proliferation of 3D CNC routers will put me out of business, because they are still just tools to partially effect good design. There is much more to signmaking than cutting and shaping.

[bruce_clark]

Ed and Charles:

First Charles, ISO code _should_ work with the
G-code converter. Basically, the G-code converter
works with the main G-codes (rapid, linear
interpolation, circular clockwise, and circular
counterclockwise). These four commands represent
99.5% of G-code usage. Or better yet, send me a
a file from "millit" that does not work and I will
update/fix/add the commands to make it work.

Ed: For making topographical maps, ModelMill has
that feature already built in. It will load
7.5minute maps from the USGS's website and convert
them into 3D models. It is REALLY neet. If you
want more information, email me.

Bruce Clark
bwclark@centurytel.net (mailto:bwclark@centurytel.net)

[bruce_clark]

Larry,

You could also use tif2sbp (now under the FC
command in the ShopBot software). This program
also converts images into 3d files and the best
part, it is free and you already have it!

Maybe not as nice as DeskArt, but is MUCH cheaper.
Now, neither one is ModelMill but it does get you
into 3D cutting pretty quickly.

Bruce Clark
bwclark@centurytel.net (mailto:bwclark@centurytel.net)