KCDW Users

[hwd_woodworking]

I was wondering if anyone out there is using the KCDW software and what you thought about it. We are flirting with buying it but was wondering if there was any feed back that could help us.

Thanks
Nate

[sawkerf]

Nathan, I use KCDW and I am very pleased with it. Like ShopBot, their Tech support is free and also like ShopBot, it is outstanding. Make sure you get a good "Post proccessing software", Like Enroute or Artcam Pro,( Artcam is supposed to be coming out with a version of Insignia that will work with KCDW at half the price of Artcam Pro soon). I a extremely pleased with both ShopBot and KCDW. Hope this helps, Kip

[lawrencelee@peoplepc.com]

Kip, are you using the bot to make parts for your cabinets. I just got the demo version of KCDW and haven't had time to do much with it. My bot is a '99 pr with pc. I build 32mm system
cabinets. are you nesting?

[sawkerf]

Yes I am using my bot to machine cabinet parts, ie. sides, tops, bottoms, system holes, notches, dados, anything that needs to be done to a plywood part before you can make it a cabinet, I'm doing it on the Bot. I build frame cabs but KCDW will do both. Unfortunately no, I am not nesting yet (still too early in the spring
I do not yet have the needed software as noted in my first post. Hope this helps.

[hwd_woodworking]

We to are flirting with KCDW, but I'm not crazy about dropping $8000 to get the CNC package. And I'm not convinced that it can draw the custom built ins we do. A lot of what we do is custom and I feel we will be restricted in our designs with this software.

Are there any projects that you can not draw or design on KCDW?

What kind of cabinet construction do you do? (Rabbit, Dado, dowell)

How much of the cabinet do you cut out on your machine? We were thinking about cutting the smaller jobs on our saw and only letting the things that need to be machined cut out on the CNC.

I don't know I feel like we are sitting on the fence with the whole thing. After everything is said and done it would be between 12 and 13 thousand dollars dropped on software. Christ for that we could buy another shopbot. We have been using a dowel construction because we find the Dado's to be a pain with all the different thicknesses of materials. Plus I'm not sure it is precise enough for it. I find if we are doing a full 3/4" dado we have to do two passes with a bit and I find that over a hole sheet of dados they vary. Some pieces will fit loosely and some will not fit at all. Our machine is sqaured to 1/128" on the outer diagonals so I don't think it is that. We seem to think that it is a factor of splitting motor pulses that cause it to give us these results.

Nate

[btk]

Nathan,

A few months ago, we received a Demo of KCDW.
They have a vast library of common cabinet components and conveyed that they are constantly updating the library (recently adding closet components).
They showed Dado and Dowell construction, Framed and Frameless.
The basic capabilities seemed very good.
However, I did not get a good feeling about
the custom capabilities (i.e. there is no interface for importing a DXF, no CAD like features, etc).

The 3D rendering was OK, however not as strong as
some other packages.

It is important to realize (as Kip pointed out above) that the CNC package from
KCDW is essentially a DXF part export (with some nesting).
The toolpaths still have to be created in a CAM package (our demo was with Enroute3 Wood Edition).

My Conclusion was that if exclusively doing production kitchen cabinet work, it would be a good fit, however not ideal for custom work.

[johnnie53]

I agree with BTK. I basicly have a bought and paid for KCDW lic. but I still don't have a parts file(Quick Set). So I can draw with it but it won't generate a parts file. I currently use Cabnetware for my custom cabinets, I can tweek it to do most of what I want, on those cabinets I have trouble with, I print out something close, and wing it on the saw. I plan on upgrading to KCDw this year as version 8 is now out,and they have framless included, which is what I'd like to use for framless cabinets and closets. Seems like alot of money for software but I belive Shopbot is working with two companines creating a design to nesting solution. If they come up with one that works and doesn't cost too much I plan on selling my new(used 99 PR) and buy a Alpha to nest with. As it is now I plan on using my PR to dado,drill holes,do other basic things for my shop. So far the Dado's are spot on but I'm running light years slower than you must be. I bet tech support should have solutions for what your doing. There's some really high end cabinet makers using Shopbots for PTP work. Now if a old guy like me can get a grip on using my new copy of Partswizard I could get some work done. I haven't quite figured out ungrouping and grouping , almost there but not yet. Is there anyone in Oregon that could demo or show me how they create SBfiles in Partwizard for cabinets? Tech support helped me get a simple SBParts file going and it works pretty well. But I can't seem to duplicate the process,close but no cigar, the turtorial isn't much help. I've read all the manuals several times. Almost there, but not there yet. so I'm still doing my parts on my old Dado jig,and Drill machines,jig saws,etc. Maybe Shopbot should do a Parts Wizard training CD. I would gladly pay good money for one.

[cnc_works]

If you get to Portland, I would be glad to give you the benefit of my familiarity to PartWizard.

Donn

[lawrencelee@peoplepc.com]

My sliding table saw can outcut any cnc on panels. (we use a tiger stop for the rip fence). we rip 8' blanks of a given width for the job and this blank goes straight to the edgebander for banding of the 8' side. it generally takes only about an hour for this process per $20,000 of cabinets. these parts are then crosscut on the slider and the 2-man tag team separates and one begins to dado, drill and notch the panels while the sawman contiues to crosscut the parts that do not get machined. (we use screws for assembly that do not require us to predrill so our shelving, stretchers,etc. are simply blanks of dimensioned material which have already been banded in the first stage). we employ designated machines for each task so there is no setup. we have a single-row 25 bit drill for system and shelving holes of 5mm on 32mm ctrs using standardized stops and air clamps via foot pedal. presently we use Cabinet Solutions which I have learned to lie to regularly to get it to do what I want and we use the cutlist generated by the software with some pencil editing and we label parts with Sharpies. The tag-team usually winds up at assembly at about the same time at which time one does the assembly of the box while the other hangs doors and drawers and loads the cabinet on the trailer. For those of you not familiar with 32mm construction go to www.true32.com (http://www.true32.com) for a good forum in which the attributes of cnc are being discussed by shops that use 32mm construction with kcdw.
I have some problems with the bot at this time along with some thoughts as to what might help.
1. Bit changing. unless i can do all processes with a 5mm bit
2. Speed. i dont like the idea of using it for a ptp and it cant keep up with my saw. setting up 2 or more positions might help with ptp.
3. it doesnt help me in the other parts of the shop such as finishing, delivery, installation, etc. so i have to consider the investment vs return.
4. Nesting seems cumbersome as far as keeping track of the parts. i realize this is usually dealt with with labels.
5. each separate part must be handled at the bander(a machine at par with a cnc router for hair-pulling)whereas now we may have 60 or so cycles thru the machine, with nesting that could be as much as 300 or more. thats a big difference in maintenence.
i saw the new alpha at IWF and it seems to be much more machine than my '99 PR but i am not convinced it has the nuaghnuaghs to do the job.

[hwd_woodworking]

One of the big differences with using a CNC regaurdless of bit changes is in 8 minutes I have 6 cabinet sides completely machine with pilot holes & dowel holes along with location holes for drawer slides so they can be screwed to the sides with out a jig before assembly. This cuts assembly time way down and the piece is only handled once as opposed to when you cut your pieces you have to cut each piece at least four times.
We all know a cnc makes a losey table saw but when used in the right way you couldn't touch it with your saw and two guys tag teaming.

The best set up is to have your design go straight to the cnc within two clicks. That my friend is the fastest way a cabinet can be made. No modified cut lists no extra man power.

One man taking the pretty picture and pressing two buttons and watching chips fly.

[sawkerf]

Unless of course, if you like dealing with the following: Help that is constantly, late, hung-over, mistake prone, unwilling to work while there's work to be done, in need of bail, in need of a loan, in need of counseling, or just plain in need. THAT, my friends was the single most convinceing argument for going CNC for me.
All of the intelligent, motivated help around here already has his own shop. Kip

[lawrencelee@peoplepc.com]

I wont argue any of your points. I have toyed with the idea of processing only end panels since they are the constraint in our cutting/milling process, and cutting the shelving etc. on the saw. Anyone doing this? in my case i would need 2 bits min. i dont see how that can be done in 8 mins, but am willing to learn if you will pass that technique on. what are you using to end drill for the dowels(we dont use them, just curious). i need 5mm for the hardware and shelving and 3mm for my pilot/guide holes for the screws. i dont want to have to end drill my horizontal parts unless i can go to confirmat screws requiring 7mm hole in panel and 5mm in horizontal parts. this would be the ultimate in speed and strength of the assembly without having to deal with glue,dowels,clamps etc. we have a construction boring machine that could be set up to end drill but i havent put any numbers on the time it takes to do that as opposed to the tack and screw method we now employ. i certainly can see the value of delivering basically a knock-down version of a cabinet to the assembly area given kip,s right-on observation. kcdw seems to offer a fairly seamless operation but it must improve every area of flow thru the shop (from sales to install) to justify the cost. From what i have seen, if you are doing semi-custom work, its hard to beat once you have your library like you want it. if you sell what you make and dont make what you sell its as good as any.

[oddcoach]

larry
you could just use the 5mm bit for both. do an area clear for the 7mm hole with the 5mm bit

[lawrencelee@peoplepc.com]

thanks john, i'd have figured that out in a couple of years myself if you hadn't mentioned it. recommended bit for the combination? should i take my discussion to another thread in the cutting/milling heading? concerned about tearout with spiral. would not be drilling most holes thru and would need a 6mmx6mm dado as well along with a notch at one corner.

[hwd_woodworking]

Larry
We cut our cabinets with three bits. The first is a 1/8" ball nose that drills our pilot holes, and location holes for our drawer slides (just kissing the surface to leave and indent) then we change out bits and run our 5mm. for our shelf pin holes. Then we switch over to a 1/2" compresion bit for the bottom rabbit and our side profiles.
It sound like alot but it really flies.
I heard they have made a air drill that you could add to your machine (they are small enough so you can have a total of three z's) One being your spindle and the other being your drilling operations. That would shave a couple of minutes off your bit changes.
The shelving and bottoms as well as stretchers are probably better off on your saw but, mainly because of the edgebanding advantage.

It is possible that you could cut everything with a 5mm down cut but I fell it takes to long. If I drop my 1/2" compresion bit it can hog through 3/4" stock ply or mel in one pass at a pretty good clip. 4 -5 inches per second, I think you can go even faster but I feel comfortable at those speeds.

We have played around with using a dowel construction in which we would area clear with the 5mm bit and drill through the side. Then during assembly we would screw the sides on and then chase the 5/16" holes out and glue in the dowels.
We have changed to a rabit at the bottom do to the speed of assembly. In all actualality there really is no need for any rabbits or dowels on a base cabinet because we make a separate platform for our cabinets using 1 inch plywood. So they remain fully supported with the exception of a recessed finished side. (the platforms work out great on the installs, once you level the platform you simply drop your cabinets in and screw them off...we learned this the hard way on an old victorian house, where the floors were horribly out, and I made the mistake of making cabinet with the kick included...never again)

I hope some of this helps

[lawrencelee@peoplepc.com]

Nathan,
If you are not familiar with www.true32.com (http://www.true32.com) go on over there and talk with those guys. they have just begun to go to cnc and have a complete system packaged using kcdw with a quickset library already set up. you may find them a little pricey but they are trustworthy folks and they do their homework. they have simplified cabinetmaking using true european techniques. the 50 bucks i spent on bob buckley's book was the best investment i ever made in my business and i have been doing this for 30+ yrs. thanks for the input. im fortunate to have a wiz-kid nephew working for me who can make a pc smoke but we are just getting serious about cnc because i cant see any shop not using it to some
extent in the next few years and stay in business. the nice thing about it is that it levels the playing field with the factories quite a bit and gives us a quality advantage they cant match for the money. Glad i lived long enough to see it. hee hee.

[lawrencelee@peoplepc.com]

nathan
just read your last post again and wonder why you dont use 5mm system screws for your drawer glides. do you use euro concealed hinges? you must be flushing the inside of your faceframe with the inside of the panel? if so you could use the system screws for mounting your plates as well (37mm backset from front of cab)you may be doing this but im just thinking out loud as to how we are approaching it(ALL hardware mounted before assembly)
are you drawing in autocad and importing to partwizard? are you running 3 separate programs or pausing during bit changes. using layers in autocad? as you can see i have along way to go.

[kokidani@bellsouth.net]

I just opened up my kitchen cabinet company and I am looking to speed up production without hiring another employee. I am confused as to whether or not the shop bot can do this for me if I buy a good software and the bot with a router instead of the spindle (tight budget).
Part of me is excited about the greater possibilities having a CNC and my tight pocket is telling me to buy an edgebander to decrease production time.
Does anyone have some valuable input on the matter?

[sawkerf]

I own a one man shop with a shopbot with a PC router, KCDw cabinet design software, Artcam Insignia (They are currently testing a "two button" cabinet nesting version). I used to have a full-time guy do all my panel cutting, I have since let him go. I can do all my panel proccessing on the Bot while I'm building drawers or doors or whatever else needs to be done. Shopbot has totally changed my world for the better! Oh yeah, I didn't even mention how much faster the cabs go together and how much more accurate parts are.

[ckurak]

Nathan,

I am a one-man shop. I build frameless cabinets and use my PRT for all of the panel processing. The only 5mm bits that I have found so far are from Onsrud (56-411 and 56-451). They are carbide double straight flutes and are designed for cutting plastic. My cabinet panels are either melamine or plywood. The bits do not last long.

You mentioned a 5mm downcut bit. Who makes such an item (brand, part#)?

I also found that the dadoes were a problem with varying material thicknesses. I couldn't make the toolpath files until I had the sheetgoods in house. Since I don't have any 2-click software, this was a bottleneck. So, I changed construction methods and use #6 x 1.75" ZIP-R screws. No predrilling required in 3/4" plywood. (I haven't made melamine boxes since I changed to the #6 screw.) The method works well. No glue, no dry time, etc. I do use miter clamps to hold the panels square as I install the first few screws. Some others hold the parts by hand, shoot a staple to hold the parts in alignment, then use screws.