Super-Zero Fixture

[mrdovey]

Every now and then I come up with something to make work on my 'Bot a bit easier, and this week it's a gizmo (with supporting SBP code) that lets me zero all three axes to a workpiece in one shot.

This evening I did a redesign to accommodate a cross-hair attachment which can be placed over any point on the table - and plan to write another software module to report the position of that point.

It's rather like a z-zero plate on steroids.

My questions for other 'Botters are: Would it be useful in your shop? If I offer this as a product, along with the SBP code that makes it useful - would there be enough interest to make it worth producing? What strikes you as a reasonable price?

Feedback - either on or off the forum - will be welcome.

[beacon14]

I'm certainly interested but I'd need more details before I could tell you how much I think it's worth.

[myxpykalix]

Morris,
I guess i might be in the minority but i can't visualize what you are trying to make based on your description. Do you have any more details or a picture? I don't understand how this would work?

[mrdovey]

I'm not sure what details you'd like...

It connects to the line you currently (sorry, pun intended) use for your z-zero plate, measures approximately 2" x 4" x 1/2", and locates either one corner of an axis-aligned workpiece or the center of the crosshair (depending on which SBP module is invoked) within one x-, y-, and z-axis step. As with the normal z-plate, it can be used to zero the z-axis to either table or top of workpiece.

Since I made my previous post I realized that I could add a small 'tweak' to the existing code and either return or set the actual bit diameter to the same precision, and I might be able to determine the number of flutes on the bit.

[mrdovey]

Jack...

Visualize a 2x4x1/2 aluminum block. It has some machined features, but it's basically an electrically conductive rectangular block.

I'm not trying to make one - the original is sitting beside my keyboard right now.

If you had a picture and did understand how it works, I would already know your answer about a reasonable price and I could have saved the effort of asking.

[myxpykalix]

See, i guess i didn't "get it". If you send a picture people won't need to buy it they would copy it? DOH!!

Rather than you describing the design or how it works can you tell me if i understand this part correctly.
If i have your device in place of my Zzero plate when i set it (I assume to the lower left corner of material) it will somehow zero all three axis's? If so that sounds like something i'd be interested in.
For me, i'm not the kind that want's to reinvent the wheel by trying to copy the design and make one myself being afraid i might mess something up. I would rather buy something that i know someone got all the bugs out of.
So the only mitigating factor for my decision abviously is price.
You might start with what is the cost of the Zzero plate we now use. Look at your cost of material, time involved in production and set your profit margin to come up with a price. Maybe do some type of informal survey to see what kind of a market you might have. If you know you only have a market for 5 might make it not worth foling with, on the other hand if you have a market for 500 that would help your decision.
I have an email to you with other ideas that might help you.

[mrdovey]

Jack...

Looks like you got it exactly right - and yes, all three axes.

I did start with the z-zero plate price and figured that at ShopBot's price of $75/axis, a three-axis device would come to $225. Then I thought about a reasonable price for a cross-hair point-at-a-time digitizer and added $150. The total of $375 seemed a bit high. At that point - because perhaps great minds do think alike - I decided that I'd better find out how many people would be interested and what they might be willing to pay.

I decided to go to the forum to do an informal survey. Smile, you're on Candid Survey!


I'll watch my mail box.

Lou...

It works well on my PRT, but I honestly don't know about the PR. If that's what you have, and if you're interested, then it might be a good idea to check with the SB folks - and to find out how to connect to your controller as an input.

[henrik_o]

If this really works, I'm definetly interested.

I'm too much of a novice to properly understand the full utility of this item, but my assumption is that it's not for nested base machining but more towards jig-based point-to-point machining.

As for a price point, I'm not sure. If it really provides a rock solid out-of-the-box working solution that can be utilized in production settings, then you could probably double your target cost and still sell copies. I mean, if this meant I could just slap a jig for p2p machining on the table, make sure it was aligned along one axis, and then attach this item of yours and be all set to run my custom file, that would be worth a lot, I figure.

If, on the other hand, it's more of a nice-thing-to-have-for-one-offs, then most people would probably be a wee bit more price sensitive.

But as I said, I'm still very much a novice so what do I know.

[mrdovey]

It really does work. I only have a PRT96 for testing but, as far as I can see, it should work well on other machines without problem.

As a set-up jig (and after a one-time self-calibration using a supplied SBP file) it can locate any of its four corners within one step - without moving the bit outside the block's "footprint".

When used as a crosshair digitizer it registers the crosshair center position with an accuracy of plus/minus one step - probably more exact than the hand/eye coordination of the person setting it in place.

If your cutting is limited to cutting parts from a sheet (with a scrap margin around the sheet edges), then the fixture won't be any more useful than a normal zzero plate.

There hasn't really been much feedback, but I'm planning to offer the fixture and associated software until the end of the month at an introductory price of US$200, and after the introductory period at a regular price of US$250.

My suggestion to beginners is to hold off until you're sure that such a tool would be worthwhile for the specific work you do.

There are work-arounds. Those that I've used took more time and were considerably less convenient. As with a lot of tools, this one was born of laziness - and (almost) by accident.

[myxpykalix]

I haven't asked much because i felt you didn't want to divulge much about design, ect. which is understandable. But since then a few others questions have popped in my head.

The process i go thru now is, I do a C3 and zero my table. Then i manually move the carriage to the spot on the material that i want to zero it to. I copy those X, Y coordinates down then zero the X,Y. Then I set the Z. Then i'm set to start my file.
Now how many of those steps do i eliminate by using your device? I don't do much sheet goods and i'm not a production shop so for me i would have to decide how much the convienence of eliminating (X) number of steps would be worth.

I can tell you as an example with another tool called a Ringmaster in order to get exact angles on our rings for bowls you needed a tool that a guy invented called a "Precision angle guide" that was no more than 2 pieces of metal half lapped to look like a Cross with a thumbscrew and moveable pin and it was no more than 2" in size and the guy sold them for $50.00.
That example was to illustrate that it was a extroidinarily simple design and overpriced for what it was but underpriced for what it did. With that and some mathimatical equations you could make some nice stuff.

[mrdovey]

Jack...

Basically, if you're zeroing to the table, you position the device on the table against the workpiece, manually move the bit over the device, and run XYZ_ZERO.SBP to zero all three axes to the corner of the device.

One of the useful properties is that the bit doesn't move outside the "footprint" of the device during the zeroing process.

That's the short, basic answer describing the original device and the original software. I've also written modules to zero the x- and y-axes (only), to simply return the coordinates of that point without zeroing any of the the axes, and to perform these same functions at the other three corners.

That's still not a complete list of capabilities - my point is that there's a considerable amount of operational flexibility with this thing.

...Morris

[stevem]

Morris, if your device is patentable, file a patent application before you make the device public. If it’s not patentable, but is still useful, it will be copied in short order. There is no point in posting a tease if you’re not going to make the device available.

[mrdovey]

Point made. No tease was intended - I've been quietly going crazy here trying to figure out how many "flexibility features" to include with the basic device.

Ok. I'll take orders for the basic gizmo starting now. Introductory pricing will remain in effect for prepaid orders received before the first of next month. Included software will provide (at least) the function I described in the first paragraph of my latest response to Jack.

I expect to be able to get the introductory orders out by the end of the second week of next month. I don't have materials on hand and it'll take a week or two to get 'em in so I can start machining. To offset the irritating delay, I'll tuck some small related 'extra' into the package as a reward for having the courage to buy something sight unseen.

I've worried my way through the patent logic and decided that I'm vulnerable to rip-off artists with or without a patent.

The whole motivation to sell this thing as a product is to raise money to complete development of a solar pump for irrigation, sanitation, and village water supply for use in developing countries. You can have a look at some of that project at http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/Stirling/ - I've taken it about as far as I can with the resources available. If someone sucks this business away, that project will stall.

[Brady Watson]

I've worried my way through the patent logic and decided that I'm vulnerable to rip-off artists with or without a patent.

Yep...this is the classic dilemma, and I have wrestled with this in the past. I basically came to the realization that I can either see my 'babies' out in the world and help others who need it, or shelf it and never see it become anything. For low volume sales, just get it out there, make a few bucks and think of the next thing. Patents are expensive, and a hinderance rather than a help when it comes to getting your product out into the market. Just do it & don't look back.

-B

[mrdovey]

Brady...

You have my sympathies. Normally when I come up with something I think might be useful, I enjoy posting pictures and offering DIY encouragement.

This is one of those times when I took on a 'pro bono' project that takes more resources than I could bring to bear, and I'm not really a metal worker - so I'm feeling nudged out of my "comfort zone".

BTW, had it not been for your encouragements over the past few years, I'm not sure that I'd have been able to bring myself to cut aluminum on my 'Bot - thanks!

...Morris

[henrik_o]

Provided that it will work with our electrical system here in Sweden (but I figure it hooks up just like the original z-zero so it should) I want to buy one unit.

I hope sending air delivery to Sweden is not a problem for you. Is it possible to pay via paypal or credit card?

I don't know if I need this or exactly how I will use it, but let me say that I've been awed by your projects and knowledge, Morris.

Now, get your act together and pack your joinery bot into a commercial package! Not to be a downer, but you can only expect to make minor money selling an aluminum thingamajig to shopbotters; a good joinery bot on the other hand could conquer the world.

No, really. With some polish and 'proper' construction instead of prototypeish painted mdf and epoxy that thing could make you some serious money. Once we ramp up production of our casket line, we're going to be needing cnc dovetails, and there are many, many others that need it as well but there are no really good solutions. I'd much rather buy two of yours (for a reasonable price) than one benchtop PRS, all it's gonna do is dovetails anyway.

But I digress, tell me how I can pay you and let's get this thing going.

[beacon14]

Morris,

From the sounds of it I'm guessing the bit must make contact with some part of the device in each axis that is being zero'd (zeroed?). Does this mean the bit must be a multi-flute spiral bit to ensure that accurate contact will occur in any direction? What about when using a straight bit? If my guess is correct I think I may have figured out what you are up to - but I'd still rather buy it from you than re-engineer it myself - unless it won't work with my most common bits.

[mrdovey]

Henrik...

It does hook up exactly the same as the z-zero.

Sending to Sweden will not only not be a problem, it'll be a pleasure.

I used to have a PayPal ordering page, but deleted it because of the amount of hacker and spam activity it produced. I'll put up a new page and post the URL to facilitate payment in other than US dollars. Anyone ordering from the USA is invited to either send a check or use the new PayPal page - there's a snail mail address at the "contact" link at http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

The JBot hit stiff price resistance in the USA at US$2500 as a woodworking hobby machine, and at that price just didn't seem worth producing - I was able to think of more interesting ways to go broke. If you're interested in a commercial-duty machine, let's talk.


...Morris

[mrdovey]

David...

Good questions. Your guess is a good one - mutiple contacts are needed, but the bit need not be a multi-flute spiral.

With present software, non-spiral bits need to have an even number of flutes and be able to make an electrical connection. If your bit is painted such that an electrical connection wouldn't be made, you may need to turn the bit by hand so that contact can be made by an unpainted portion (probably a cutting edge).

I think I may be able to deal with the odd-number-of-flutes problem, but that solution isn't yet in place.

...Morris

[hespj]

Morris, I think you might get more people interested if you tell us how this might be useful to us. How would I use this device in practice? I don't mean "You put the device on the table and run the routine", I mean the bigger picture. We've all got along perfectly well without this device, why do we need it now?

John

[mrdovey]

John...

You might not need it at all.

It can be useful in several ways. There is always more than one way to skin a cat, and this is simply one more (hopefully easier) way to do a number of jobs by taking more full advantage of the existing INPUT-1 circuitry and interrupt processing capability of the 'Bot control software.

[1] It facilitates zeroing axes to a corner of a workpiece or jig using a single piece of hardware and by invoking a single SBP program file.

[2] It facilitates locating (without affecting any axes) that same corner in exactly the same way with a different SBP program file.

[3] With the addition of the crosshair cursor, it facilitates zeroing the x- and y-axis to the table location determined by the crosshair.

[4] With the crosshair cursor, it facilitates acquisition of the (x,y) coordinate pair of the table location determined by the crosshair.

All of these jobs can be accomplished using other methods, but (since I'm fundamentally lazy) I came up with this little gizmo to make all of these jobs quicker and easier.

In a nutshell, it adds the ability to either zero or acquire (x,y) coordinates with the same ease as using the zzero plate to zero the z-axis (a job than can be accomplished without a zzero plate, but why?)

When I didn't have it, I didn't miss it. Now, every other way of doing these jobs would amount to a "work-around" for not having it.

I'm easily spoiled.


...Morris

[mrdovey]

I'm going to be on the road until Sunday evening and wanted to take care of some "odds and ends" here before I head out:

Henrik...

I put up a PayPal order page at http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/order.html - please let me know if you have any difficulty using it.

David...

I had a short e-mail conversation with Brady and really like his suggestion for dealing with problem bits: substitute a piece of drill rod for the bit while zeroing x- and y-axis, then replace the bit and zero the z-axis normally.

I had already planned to include a 3" length of 1/4" drill rod for (re)calibration, but now plan to include 1/8", 1/4", 3/8", and 1/2" to facilitate using Brady's method without requiring a collet change.

...Morris

[cnc_works]

I'm no programmer, Morris, but I had a script that allowed for entry of bit diameter for setting xy zero. Found it here on the forum before I went to Geckos.

Donn

[handh]

Donn,

Do you have a link to that script, I would really find that useful.

[kivimagi]

Scott Worden,

This sounds a lot like the widget you posted(and showed me) several months ago. A picture is worth a thousand words.

Regards,

[henrik_o]

Morris,

That's great, I have paypal slaved to an account I only credit for specific purchases (being careful like that) so I won't have the money on it until monday or tuesday, but I have sent the money order for it to that account.

It all sounds very interesting.

I have a feeling we'll talk more about the JBot, but in due time...

[kenz]

Morris,
Is it something like this:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/show.cgi?tpc=312&post=55219#POST55219
but with a z-zero plate also, or would you say it's an improvement.

[srwtlc]

I've been using that little thing for going on seven years now. Works great!

[cnc_works]

Jeff, I'm down with injuries and dumb with pain pills, so I don't remember the link, but I suspect it is similar to the one above that Ken posted.

Donn

[kenz]

Scott,
Thanks for posting your device on that other thread. Of all the other methods and devices in that thread, yours made the most sense to me and my needs.

[beacon14]

Morris,

Unfortunately if I have to change bits twice it will no longer be faster than what I'm doing now. I'm using a single flute compression spiral and I'm not sure it will be reliable on your device or anything similar.

[richards]

Why not use a piece of hollow metal tubing to fit over the 1/4" cutter? It should be fairly easy to find metal tubing with 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" bores. And it would be really easy to turn the outside diameter on a lathe so that the readings would be 'true'. If you did that, there would be no need to remove the cutter when zeroing.

[beacon14]

Mike, that borders on brilliance and might just be the solution. I will definitely look into it. The cutter geometry is awkward and might not keep a sleeve centered properly.

[Brady Watson]

It's probably easier to just buy some drill rod in 1/4, 3/8 & 1/2" rather than monkeying around with finding tubing with an exact ID of those sizes...in fact, unless you have someone make them for you on a lathe...it ain't happening...

You chuck the drill rod into the collet, run X & Y routines, then replace with your bit & run the Z routine. Done.

-B

[dirk]

Looks like Morris is being left out ( he did start this thread). He could machine the tubes and include them in his kit. That makes it better for Morris and harder for DIY

[mrdovey]

Donn...

Yup. Not difficult to get values from the keyboard. Because I'm so lazy, I designed this fixture to work without needing to know the bit diameter.


Henrik...

Ok. Talk is not expensive - I have a good supply.


Ken...

Not even close, as you've already guessed from my response to Donn. I'd say it was a gigantic improvement - but I could be a bit biased.


Dave...


I came up with a method for single flute bits last night, and another for three-flute bits. I'm going to try 'em out when I have a chance, so more on this later.

Mike, David, Brady, Dirk...

Oops! Looks like my new tubing idea wasn't so new after all. I like both the drill rod and the tubing idea. I know (from experience) the drill rod approach will work; and I'm certain the tubing will also work. The single flute bit will require a split/slotted tube and I'll need to see how difficult it'll be to make that cut.

...Morris

[henrik_o]

Morris,

On your order page, "shipping and handling" stands at $0; please advice, if it's ok with you I'd rather pay for both the SZP and the shipping in one transaction.

[mrdovey]

Henrik...

I hate to disappoint, but I'm afraid that there isn't any shipping/handling charge unless you want some kind of (expensive) express shipping.

...Morris

[henrik_o]

What a downer!


Payment made, let me know if there's anything more you need from my end.

[mrdovey]

Henrik...

Nothing for you to do except prepare to be delighted. I should have all the materials in a week or two and will ship ASAP after that.

BTW, I visited your web site yesterday evening. Saying that you do nice work would be a serious understatement. Very impressive!

...Morris

[henrik_o]

Thank you, then we're both very impressed by the work on each other's websites


(I really need to get around to updating it, I know there's dead links and such, but it'll probably not happen until the midwinter holidays.)

Ship it when you're ready, there's no rush whatsoever from my side.

[mrdovey]

Henrik...

You can have a sneak preview of your plate at http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SuperZero.html - the hardware is finished, and a new improved version of the software has almost been completely tested.

It's not the prettiest thing in the world, but it provides fast, accurate, repeatable zeroing of all three axes.

Nor is it quite what I described above - but I didn't think you'd mind if I provided an additional usage mode.

Oh yes, the probes will be stainless - and I've added a 1/8" probe to the set. My feeling is that it's a bit lightweight, but it's a standard collet size and I wanted the set to be complete.

There's one more gizmo (not part of the Super-Zero, but related) that I may tuck into the package if I have time to finish it before the end of the month.


...Morris

[beacon14]

OK I just voted with my wallet. Can't wait to see the software.

[carl_vallance]

I'm With David. Voted with my wallet.
Thanks Morris. The pictures were the final sellind point.

[henrik_o]

Come to daddy!

Seriously Morris, that looks really good. Really, really good.

I've just completed building a jig for doing brass hinge inserts, and I can already tell your invention will save me considerable time every time I want to put this on the table.

Maybe I'm missing something being a novice and all, but as far as I can tell your design is somewhat of a small revolution for doing point-to-point work on the Shopbot.

[mrdovey]

WOW!
I didn't quite expect quite the level of response I got (serious understatement). I'm glad you found the photos helpful in understanding how this little critter works. It does look like a very busy week ahead...

Thanks to all!

...Morris

[srwtlc]

Morris, If I may offer a suggestion, if you were to make your unit square instead of rectangular (with the hole in the center) and make the wire able to be plugged in from top or bottom, you could use it in either inside or outside mode without removing the cleats.

[mrdovey]

Scott...

I like your thinking, but making the fixture "flippable" would increase the cost considerably, because measurements that are presently non-critical would become very much so.

My suspicion is that most 'Botters will probably use the fixture in one way or the other nearly all of the time.

Of course, you could just get two and keep both configurations handy...


...Morris

[mrdovey]

Peter...

(This is strange. The forum server sent me a copy of a posting by Peter Meacham, but it doesn't appear here.)

Don't worry about the hole yet. It has two functions: It's a contact area that's probed during the zeroing process - and it provides a "peekaboo" for point-by-point digitizing when I figure out how I want to make crosshair reticules. You may have noticed (it's not easily seen in my photos) that the hole is bored out wider in the bottom 0.085" or so - that's for the reticule.

...Morris

[jseiler]

Will it work with a PR, or must one have a PRT control box? I am concerned by "interrupt processing capability" language in one of your earlier posts in this thread.

John

[pete]

Morris - well I pulled my post asking about the purpose of the hole - I figured everyone in the world must already know the purpose except me.

Anyway, may I suggest a machined recess in the bottom of the hole for a clear Plexiglas or acrylic reticule? The crosshairs could be etched with a laser engraver and the circumference of the reticule could be cut with the laser as well. I would include an extra reticule for replacement if it got scratched or broken.

[mrdovey]

John...

If your PR can use a ZZERO plate for zeroing the z-axis, then it can use the Super-Zero for zeroing all three axes.

Interupt processing is a bit of computer-speak that describes a system capability that lets the software respond to a hardware event - which in a 'Bot's case is an input line being short-circuited to ground, which is what happens when a limit switch is closed or some part of the grounded machine contacts the zzero plate.

Peter...

The problem with being in the dark is that you can't see who's there with you.


The hole is primarily there to provide vertical contact surfaces inside the block's footprint. The shape of the hole isn't particularly important, and the only reason it goes all the way through is to allow for the possibility of a crosshair.

You're on the right track. The machined recess is already there (look closely at the photos I posted), and I have a couple of sheets of clear acrylic waiting in the shop. Following Steve's suggestion that I not "tease", I've postponed work on the crosshair until I've delivered what I've already promised.

...Morris

[stevem]

Morris, if you’re going to use any kind of plastic on the base of your plate, I suggest having the plastic hard coated to reduce scratching and extend useful life. You can have an entire sheet hard coated and then machine. I don’t know if you can hard coat small parts.

[mrdovey]

Steve...

Aha! I wasn't aware that could be done - but now that I know, I'll keep it in mind...

What I'd really like to do is produce a little SBP file that'd allow people to make their own reticles whenever they wanted. That way the cost could be minimized and the tendency to scratch/abrade wouldn't matter quite so much.

Glass would be nice, too...


...Morris

[henrik_o]

Well, I got some free time and am playing around a bit with C4D so I modelled the SZF. Obviously, I don't have measurements and the pics are a bit hard to get size references from, so that's all way off, but I thought I'd post it anyway.


5471

Cooooome to daddy!

If you want any technical illustrations to go with your instructions, just tell me Morris, I like to do stuff like this just for fun. Something like this might be a style to go for


5472

Alright, this is all a bit on the silly side but what can I say, I like to play...

[pete]

Henrik – not silly at all. It is great that you have the skill and vision to do such illustrations. I can’t draw a straight line, even with a computer ---__-_-__. Pete

[mrdovey]

Henrik...

Looks pretty good! Let's talk after you've had a chance to play^H^H^H^Hwork with yours.

What I'm really curious about is: where did you find a red arrow with the right-sized hole in just the right place? ;)

Measurements: 2.25 x 4 x 1/2" (57.15 x 101.6 x 12.7)

Which raises an interesting question for me: Do you program your 'Bot in inches or mm (or both)?

I've set up the software (except for one line of one file) to be insensitive to units.

...Morris

[henrik_o]

Morris,

Thanks! (To you too Peter.)

Just let me know what you need, if you need it.

I program the 'bot in metric (mm). Only time I've used imperial is to cut a downloaded sample file, I guess I could still cut it in metric and be fine but I switched over anyway.

Regarding the software, is this going to be an actual standalone program, or is it more of a behind-the-scenes plugin called from within SB 3?

[mrdovey]

Henrik...

Offer noted and appreciated!

It's written as a stand-alone program.

I'm still using SB2, never used the C? facility, and use either the FP command for SBP files (or an FE hack for Windows/DOS executables) so haven't tried setting it up as a plugin.

I can't think of any reason it couldn't be set up that way.

...Morris

[mrdovey]

It was a busy week. I got all the materials and some new tooling in (I emptied three Radio Shack stores of their supply of banana plugs!) and have all of the parts machined. I zip-locked all the small parts and plan to spend Saturday morning calibrating the blocks.

The software (entirely SBP modules) appears to be working well in my SB2 environment - and I had a couple of inspirations along the way that allow discovering the measurement system in use at runtime (so Henrik won't need to do any editing to use the stuff in either metric or inch environments!) and I found a way to capture the current move speeds - which lets me slow down the probing moves and automatically restore the previous speeds when the software exits.

What's really fun is that I've been able to use the first Super-Zero fixture to cut parts for the rest.

I wish I'd made one of these a long time ago!

...Morris

[btk]

Morris,

The Super-Zero looks great.
I am not sure if this was brought up before, however
perhaps a use for the fixture would be for squaring the Y-Car. Where you could place the plate on 3 points of a T-Square, Run 3 times and then have your software calibrate the angle of deviation based on the 3 values.

Brian

[mrdovey]

Brian...

Should work (with just 2 points) but I'm not sure how useful it'd be to measure the error - perhaps just knowing how much to "bump" one end would be sufficient.

Dave Rodda came up with a beautiful idea for screw-adjustable stops that appear to solve the Y squaring problem fairly well - perhaps we can get him to post a few photos.


I had been thinking of machining a couple of cam-type stops that could be rotated to adjust the stop position, but I like Dave's idea even better.

...Morris

[Gary Campbell]

Morris..
Any chance that the modules will be tested using the 3.5.3 (newest) version of the software?
Gary

[mrdovey]

Gary...

I imagine that they will be shortly.


As far as I know, there aren't any compatability issues at the SBP level. I don't use the current cutter diameter system variable in any of these modules, and AFAIK the features I do use are common to both versions. Nearly all of the code consists of single-axis moves or jogs, with liberal use of ON INPUT(1,1) commands, and all of the math involved is limited to the four basic arithmetic operations. (I just looked - only add, subtract, multiply, and divide - and not an M2, M3, J2, or J3 in sight.) It's really that simple - and I predicted to someone earlier that most people would either grin or become angry when they looked at the code - the rest (a very small number) will say: "That SOB has a twisted mind."


If there are incompatabilities, I'll certainly know about 'em in short order - but I don't think there'll be any.

...Morris

[mrdovey]

Gary...

An afterthought - and I probably should have said this sooner: If you (or anyone) finds that the Super-Zero won't work on your(their) 'Bot, return the complete package within 30 days for a full refund - including the return postage.

If that happens, I'd really like to learn about the specifics of the problem (so I can fix it), but it's considerably more important to me that no one feel stuck with something that won't work on their machine.

...Morris

[paco]

Morris,

if there's anything you could need to make sure the program code work in all SB* would the latest system variables document (ShopBotSystemVar.pdf) found in the help folder.
Other than that is if you make use of input and output. Looking at the latest zeroing routines from SB, it look like it's very feasible to make a routine work in almost all circumstances.

[mrdovey]

Paco...

Thanks for the reminder - I just downloaded the Command Reference and the Part File Programming Handbook and checked the commands I'm using so I can definitely give assurances of compatibility.


...Morris

[btk]

Morris,

I was thinking of the squaring of the Y Car to the Z-Axis during initial setup (as opposed to squaring each time you turn on the machine). Usually, the process requires cutting a series of triangles, etc. to find out about how square the axis are running to each other.

Brian

[mrdovey]

Brian...

Aha! Now I think I'm on the same page...

I would tend toward an L-shaped construction, where the vertical stem might be a 2" length of 1/2" drill rod, with an inexpensive dial indicator mounted at the outboard end of the horizontal arm.

With the drill rod chucked in the router, lower the spindle until the dial indicator touches the table (or a smooth flat sheet of MDO laid on the table). By rotating the spindle/chuck, any lack of squareness of z with either x- or y-axis shows up on the dial indicator and can be more or less easily adjusted out.

I just peeked into an Enco (www.use-enco.com (http://www.use-enco.com)) sale flyer to check the price of an inexpensive dial indicator (P/N 605-4076 @ $11.59) and found a "gee-whiz" version of what I just described (P/N 326-1124 @ $99.95). I think you could probably DIY your own for less than $20 (including the dial indicator).

...Morris

[beacon14]

I think Brian is talking about squaring the Y gantry to the X axis, and Morris is talking about squaring the Z axis to the table.

[btk]

David,
Thanks, I tried to clarify and still said the wrong thing. Yes, I meant the X to Y axis during setup.
And I think that you would need three points as to test the squarness of a triangle.

Brian

[mrdovey]

Brian...

You're right. It takes two points to define a line - and you need one line for each axis. Since only one of the points can be shared, at least three points are necessary - and if there is no shared point, then four points are sufficient.

I've done my x-/y-axis squaring using a (known to be square) carpenter's framing square butted up against a fence aligned with the x-axis, but you've gotten me thinking about the problem...

It should be possible to throw that square anywhere on the table, connect it to the INPUT-1 line, probe its two edges (2 points each), and apply a bit of trig to see if the probed points define two lines that intersect at right angles.

If they don't, then the difference between the calculated angle of intersection and 90° is the 'Bot alignment error.

Hows that?

...Morris

[btk]

Morris,

Now we are on the same page.
I just thought depending on the tolerances you are getting, that it would an non-invasive way of checking the squareness (as opposed to having to route into wood and the check with a T-Square.

However if you are willing to route into the table, perhaps the most accurate test would be to have a routine that first routes Large Rectangle into the table and then place the The Super Zero on each corner with a special routine to determine if it is square. (A good time would be just before each changing the Spoil Board).

Maybe you can call it the Super-Zero & Square Calibration Device :-)

Brian

[btk]

....actually, on second thought, test would have to only be against a known square (good T-Square) and could not be against a routed groove in table as the SB will think the routed groove is square regardless.

Brian

[denver]

Couldn't you clamp some scrap at each corner, poke a hole in each one, and measure the diagonals? Then you wouldn't need to cut the table.

Thanks,

Denver

[benchmark]

The quickest way I found to check a gantry for square is to lay two thin sheets of material (preferable 8 x 4) parallel to the X axis, then cut a rectangle about ½” in from the edge all the way round through the two sheets. Then flip the top sheet over and align on the X axis then position the two corners at 0,0 if you measure the difference between the two corners at X0,Y48 ….divide this difference by 2 will show you how far out your gantry is.




Paul

[mrdovey]

A quick note to everyone who ordered the Super-Zero...

All orders went out this afternoon via Priority Mail. Henrick, yours should arrive this coming Thursday or Friday. The rest should arrive by Wednesday. Enjoy!


...Morris

[henrik_o]

Weeeee!

That's great Morris, can't wait to get my hands on it.

[denver]

My package was in the mail when I picked it up this evening. Thanks Morris. Looks like everything arrived intact, and the instructions are clear - I'll try it out tomorrow.

I took a quick peek at the code, and have to say it looks like I'll have to do some studying before I understand what's going on. It does look well organized, though.

Thanks again,

Denver

[mrdovey]

Good - I've been concerned about the CD case surving the sometimes rough handling.

I'd suggest setting up your cable and chucking up the largest of the probes your router will take and playing with the XYZ_ZERO.SBP and XYZ_CRNR.SBP files (those that zero all three axes) until you're comfortable with operation.

Since sending the packages, I've added error checking to all of the SBP files to detect both unexpected contact and contact failure during the zeroing process, and completed testing of it yesterday. The new code will go out with future orders - and I'll be glad to e-mail copies to all purchasers who e-mail me their permission to send updates.

Quick update for Alpha users: I hadn't caught the change to the US command. Alpha users will need to edit XYZ_ENVP.SBP and replace all of the commands before the END with:

&XYZ_U = 1 + 24.4 * %(25)
&MS2 = %(71)
&MSZ = %(73)

It should speed things up somewhat.


...Morris

[mrdovey]

More: With a bit of help from one of the 'Botters and one of the guys at ShopBot, I figured out that the SC commands needed for operation on my PRT cause problems for the more recent systems.

I'd already worked up a new version that incorporates a bit of error checking (primarily to catch instances of the spindle being mis-positioned), I simply made copies of all files and removed all of the SC commands from one set.

To receive an updated version of either the PRT or PRS file sets, just send an e-mail letting me know which set you'd like.

...Morris

[mrdovey]

Some usage notes:

The recess for the reticule always on the bottom of the block.

To eliminate possible confusion of which programs are associated with which points, I made this little sketch...

5473

[wberminio]

Morris
I'm very interested in your "super Z"
jig.Could you explain how to order one.

Thanks

Erminio

[mrdovey]

Erminio...

The easiest way is to use the link at www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SuperZero.html (http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SuperZero.html) and follow the "Order Online" link at the bottom of the page.

The accompanying CD-ROM now contains software for both v2 and v3 control programs.

...Morris

[wberminio]

Thanks Morris

Looking forward to it using it!

Erminio

[handh]

Hey guys, I am interested in purchasing the super zero plate. How is it working for you. I have a PRT alpha and after trying to make arches yesterday and trying to get the bot in the right position about drove me crazy. Thanks in advance.

Jeff

[mrdovey]

Jeff...

I'd intended to sit back and learn from the responses to your query. After two days, I guess my biased answer might be more helpful than no answer at all.

Mine works well for me. There were some initial difficulties with the V3 control software, and I think those have been fixed by providing SBP program sets for both V2 and V3.

I haven't had any feedback on use in a metric environment.

I have had feedback from one person that the block wasn't as pretty as he'd hoped - and I share his feelings. Friday, I had the next set of blanks cut squarely by a local machine shop so that I can face mill the long edges - and I'm hoping to work out an arrangement with another shop with a more rigid CNC milling machine to cut smoother reference holes.

I've moved the SuperZero info to www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SuperZero/ (http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SuperZero/) and have added a "Details" link to a copy of the ReadMe file provided with the SuperZero.

...Morris

[handh]

Thanks Morris,

I was wondering if anyone was using the product or not, I am using V3 control software. Do you still use the z zero plate when you are just zeroing for regular cutting or does this unit replace the z zero plate all together.

Jeff

[mrdovey]

Jeff...

I still have my old 1/8" x 1-1/2" x 8" zzero plate and an old piece of 1/8" x 1-1/2" x 1-1/2" aluminum angle that I used for edge-finding, but haven't used either since I started using the SuperZero.

I've changed the zzero plate thickness in my old software so that I could use the new fixture in the old way - and actually did use it that way a few times. But after that few times, I realized that I always zero'd the other axes anyway, so I just posponed the zeroing until I was ready to do the whole job.

I keep telling myself that I'm going to make a banana jack to screw to the old z-plate - and perhaps another for the angle, but that seems less and less worth doing every time I think about it.


I'll probably keep the old standbys handy until the day when I need the metal for some new project. I don't think I'll miss 'em when they're gone.

...Morris

[handh]

Thanks Morris, I'm putting this on my wish list for christmas for myself, lol. I am a little surprised that no one using this accessory has given any feedback good or bad, interesting. I will trust that it does what you say and go from that. Once again thanks,

Jeff

[denver]

I just noticed the recent activity here about any feedback. Lately I've been cutting parts from 2" thick pine planks. The planks are just wide enough for the parts I'm cutting, so accurately locating the edge is critical. Using this device made the whole process much easier. I've assigned XYZ_CRNR and XYZ_ZERO to custom commands C5 & C6.

The Super connects to the system with a length of wire with the banana plug on one end and an alligator clip on the other. I fasten the alligator clip to the original zzero plate. I still have the original hooked up, mostly because I haven't gotten around to changing the setting for the plate thickness. Once I do that,. I don't expect to need to old one any longer.

So to summarize my experience with this, I would say it's all good. Thanks, Morris, well done!

Denver

[evan]

I'll chime in: It works as advertised. I have used it a few times to set up some jigs and it saved me a lot of time. I haven't had much of a chance to use it yet for the most part because I cut sheet goods and counter tops, which are always referenced from the same corner. That being said it easily replaces the original zzero plate and more, but like Denver I haven't gotten around to changing the setting for the plate thickness. The more I use it I can see the more indispensable it will become. I have no regrets purchasing the SuperZero.

[mrdovey]

Thanks, guys! I just got back from a visit to a local machine shop (to negotiate cutting the reference hole on their CM CNC mill). The good news is that future SuperZeros won't show the chatter the first batch do.

I'd begun to worry that the darned things only worked on my 'Bot - and it's good (really good!) to know that's not the case.

[mrdovey]

I've just added a "Tips & Techniques" web page with a link at the bottom of http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/SuperZero/ where I plan to post suggestions and photos received from SuperZero users. There isn't much there yet, but I expect it'll grow.

[knight_toolworks]

your getting there. it is a worthwhile investment. now I can zero on the wood and not the jig or the jig and not it's holder.
I still use the regular plate since it has a longer reach under my dc skirt I made.
it is far better then eyeballing a v bit to find the corner and thats a big plus.
anyone wants the vcarve file for the holder here it is.
super z holder

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