Just Getting Started

[jason_remillard]

Hello All!

My father and I just bought a Shopbot! I (let me emphasize I!) put the machine together and so far everything works like a charm.

Just to update you, my dad has interest in making wood signs by hand. He made purchases of equipment last year for doing wood signs, router, planer, finishing equipment etc. And my interests are CAD and CNC routing which I have learned through trade, college, and somewhat hobby.

My question is now that we have a shopbot, where do we get the customers, and what other areas besides signs should we focus, like custom woodworking.

Thanks to all of you!

[tuck]

Jason, you might have the cart before the horse as far as being a sign maker. Do you or your father have design experience and are you familiar with all of the materials available to make signs (besides wood)? Would you know how to price them correctly (some folks in here may laugh at me about that!) and make money? Sign making is a profession. Most of the ShopBotters in here purchased their machines to help them make signs but already understood the business because that's what we do - make signs, and in most cases have for many years. The idea that "anyone can design and make a nice sign" is a mistaken idea if you want to make a living at doing it.

However, since the interest is there, I would advise that you start looking at signs everywhere, routed signs especially. Study the designs and techniques. You might even consider getting hired at a sign shop as an apprentice and learning everything you can for as long as you can if you're serious about sign making. There is an entire education involved and a busy sign shop would be the best place to learn the ropes. I've been a sign designer/maker for over 20 years and I'm still learning new tricks/techniques constantly, a lot of them in here.

In the meanwhile, you might start out making small wood signs for your neighbors and friends. Address plaques, name plates, etc.

I wish you and your father good luck. As I posted in another thread recently, I've been on these boards for a long time and have seen countless people exclaim their joy about having just gotten their Bot, only to see them trying to sell it 6 months to a year later. These are serious (and expensive), machines for serious craftsmen and if I was going to buy a CNC as a hobby interest, I would just get a Sears CompUCarve or something like that. Or maybe I'd just buy a Harley instead.

Seriously, good luck. ;-)

[jben007]

Yes , by all means explore the cabinet needs in your area, also commercial jobs are booming in the DC area where I live. For example we recently did a church job with a lot of bookcases,Molding and Radius casings.We run a 3 man shop with 2 of us partners and one helper it's not uncommon to net 10-12K in a month and that was before we had the router.But you have to choose the right kinds of jobs and be proficient at making them, whether it be cnc or on the table saw the old fashion way...oh there is one other trick I should mention to make money.......Mistake Free ! However many times you need to check measurements do, have someone else look over what you did.Once you have all your cad/cam programs set up, it is much easier to become mistake free.Did you get a Vacuum table? They are really handy for sheet goods.
We use Autocabinets by routercad now and then import the dfx files into enroute and 3 clicks of the mouse the parts are nested and your cut files are generated.Once it's set up the toolpath is automatic.They even have a drawercad program that's cuts dovetail drawer parts right on the router.Well... congratulations on your purchase !
Ben

[jben007]

Oh yes...As mark said above,the same goes with cabinet making,whether it be a Kitchen or a commercial p-lam cabinet.I've been at this for 27 years.I also run a woodmizer sawmill,kiln dry my own lumber and retail hardwoods and curly and figured maples.I specialize in exotic spalted maple.here is a set my customer made this Bass guitar out of it.
Ben

[brucehiggins]

I have had my shopbot for going on two months now. I have learned a lot but have a lot more respect for the signmaking pros now. You can easily vcarve some interesting stuff but when you look at what the real pros are doing it is intimidating. I have the attitude that it is going to take a lot of mistakes to get good - every mistake I make is another one to cross off. Making the same mistake twice is something I avoid. I think it will probably take at least 6 months to learn enough, find enough marketable items/techniques/markets to have much of an income for someone like me who has just been a hobby woodworker. Then again, you may find a niche product and be off and running. Enjoy the challenge and keep a positive attitude and you will be glad you bought the bot. I am having a blast and keeping the vision that I will be successful.
Bruce

[tuck]

Keep the vision Bruce and you will become successful at anything you want to do, although it may take a lot longer than you thought. My point with Jason is simply this: just because you now own a Bot doesn't make you a sign maker and I've been amazed over the years at guys who bought one and thought otherwise. Like I said, it involves an entire education over many years in order to consider oneself a real pro. When I say "pro", I mean "professional", meaning you do it for a living, not a hobby.

A sense of art (meaning good layout, balance and design as well as color combinations, etc.), is essential for all but the most basic of sign making functions. Either you have that or you don't. There's no other way to put it. Then there's all of the other stuff to learn and master, from technique to materials to pricing and marketing,...meeting deadlines and dealing with customers. It can be a huge challenge in a very competitive market, but it can also be very rewarding depending on your personal goals.

A positive attitude? Without that I would have quit many years ago and become what I really wanted to be all along,...a shoe salesman at Sears. ;-)

[joe]

Mark,

Very good point. The Sign Industry is changing before our eyes and there's no going back.

I'm sure you remember when the first vinyl plotters came to market. Within ten years hand lettering experts were almost eleminated. No longer was it necessary to set at the drawing board, concentrating on a good layout, making revisions and inclusion which are pleasing to the eye. Or even the understanding of basics of layout principals.

In some ways I'm glad the technology has come along. I never want to hand letter a "Pool Rules", or "No Sale By Owner" sign again, however, I'm amazed how little respect there is for what it takes to build well designed and constructed signs.

The term "Sticker Pimps" has now made it's way into the vernacular. On "Letterville" there are sign shops calling themselves as Sticker Pimps. It's a huge industry with good profits.

Standing in the wings are the new version, Router Pimps. Putting on their sneakers, armed with a hand full of razor sharp V bits and dollar signs in their eyes. It's gonna be great.
Many of these folks are design ignorant, and itchin to make their way into the industry.

It's not going to affect experienced sign artist like yourself.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[ljdm]

Been following this topic - gotta agree with all of it - no, not all of it - "Putting on their sneakers"? C'mon, that's all I ever wear now, too many years of heavy work boots under my belt. Now if you said "Putting on their DESIGNER sneakers" it would be ok!!

[chiloquinruss]

You know the best part of using computer front ends for doing all that tedious sign work we used to do (pool rules, heh, heh, heh)? SPELL CHECKERS! I can't begin to tell you how many re-paints I've done cause' I cain't spell a lick!
Russ

[bcammack]

Russ, sometimes that doesn't help. I followed a landscaper up US1 this morning with an elaborately signed (in vinyl) enclosed trailer. It said (front, back & both sides) in 4" high letters beneath the company name: "Commercial and Residetal". sigh...

[chiloquinruss]

Try 'Good Old Fashioned Hot Fod!' That was the bottom line on a 4x8 sign, that I had finished hanging when noticed, Hot Fod and not Hot Food! Ahh mistreaks, misteakes, errr mistakes and what we learn from them ehhh!
Russ

[tuck]

Joe,

I remember very well the old vinyl plotters. My experience was with a Gerber sign maker IV. Slow as Christmas, but still a work saver. The old Gerber pounced paper, cut vinyl and penned as well. As a designer for a large sign company in the early 80s, it was a life saver. You talk about painting "Pool Rules" signs? Can you imagine DRAWING one with pencil and paper? LOL! I would pen it out on the Gerber, then place that under my velum paper with the company header on it and TRACE each letter! The salesman would make a blue print of my "drawing" and go try to sell it. It was labor intensive and I only had 6 fonts to work with. At that time, fonts for the Gerber were $250.00 ea., and the boss was too cheap to buy more. I stretched helvetica, optima, eurostyle bold, brush script and a couple others to the limit. When I hand drew my own fonts for designs, they had to be perfect because they would be blown up on a projector for production! It was excruciating, but I did that for 12 years with that company and learned a lot.

So, when computers and CAD/CAM entered the picture, yes, THANK YOU JESUS! Technology is a good thing, but only in the right hands. Suddenly EVERYONE is a sign maker, squeezing the bejeebers out of that helvetica and times roman! LOL! "Mom & Pop" sign shops sprang up on every corner and we know the rest of the story,..."franchise city". Me, I just make lots of money off of 'em and still do my own thing.

The basics of sign design still exist and like Louis Armstrong said, "If some folks don't know, you can't tell them." You may recall that I do in-ground post & panel installs on the side for some of the local sticky shops that don't like to get their hands dirty. It pays well and keeps me busy when the Bot has nothing to do. Anyway, I put one up the other day, an 8' x 8' "V" shaped sign that faces an interstate highway with limited exposure due to tree lines and topography. It has 2 lines of copy; "Now Leasing" and under that a phone #. The sticky shop did digital prints on alumacore, and that's fine, but they got both lines of copy squeezed so tight to make them "tall enough" that you can barely read the sign up close, never mind 100 yards away doing 80 mph. Not only that, but they used soft pastel colors, real "purdy", but completely ineffective for the task at hand. Anyone remember bright yellow on black or visa versa? When I finished the install, I just shook my head. I'll make my money and the sticky shop will make theirs, but the customer that ordered the sign and approved the design just blew about $2,000.00, thanks to the sticky shop that sold them a bag of goods because they don't know better.

And so it goes.... ;-)