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View Full Version : Lamination for double sided western red cedar sign



blackhawk
01-25-2010, 02:47 PM
I actually got an order for a sign that I quoted back in August. The job is for an outdor double sided sign about 2' x 3' and 2-1/2" thick. I wanted a little advice on adhesives, since this is my first outdoor cedar sign. My plan is to create two sign blanks 1-1/4" thick each and then gluing them back to back. I plan on starting with 2x4 cedar and truing the edges on the jointer and then edge gluing with biscuits. Then surfacing each side of the two blanks on the Bot to get them flat. Route the design on both blanks, then laminate together.

I feel pretty comfortable using Titebond III for the edge gluing. I have used it for years in dozens of edge glue ups without failure. Of course these were all indoor furniture pieces. For the lamination of the blanks back to back, I wondered if something else may be better. I thought about the PL Polyurethane Construction adhesive over the Titebond III. Any experience on this?

(I have never had any luck with Gorilla glue holding anything for me, not sure why. I only bought a bottle of it once, maybe I got a bad batch.)

dakers
01-25-2010, 03:02 PM
based on recommendations of those who know more than i do we used dap weldwood marine recorcinol glue for wood for exterior use. would be great to laminate vertical grain to vertical grain to avoid opposing stresses.

billp
01-25-2010, 03:47 PM
Brad,
Before you do all of that work, you might want to look at All wood cedar sign blanks. I have used them before and they are reasonably priced, perfectly glued up, and MEANT to be used for signs...
http://allwoodsignblanks.com/cedar2.htm

signtist
01-25-2010, 04:05 PM
Brad, The way I do these are....
Simply stack the 2x4's untill you get it 2'+ tall.
I set 1 2x4 flat....tightbond glue on it...
then set the next 2x4 on and screw with about 3 deck screws.
Continue untill it's over 2' tall.
Next.... plane down both sides untill it's 2 1/2" thick. The screws are all inside except the top piece. Remove after it dries.
I've made 16' long signs this way. I would rip to width first to get rid of the rounded edges, then belt sand. John www.signgraphics1.com (http://www.signgraphics1.com)

blackhawk
01-25-2010, 04:46 PM
John - Thanks for the idea on the deck srews for stacking the panels. I didn't mention this, but I was planning on putting a screw in each of the corners for the lamination of the two halves.

Bill - I have seen the Allwood blanks. I actually bought a sample sign from Harbor Sales made from an Allwood blank. I bought this before I bought Aspire, just to show potential customers what a 3D sign would look like. I had to send the first sample back to Harbor because it had delminated over about 8 inches of one joint. Since then, I haven't been real confident on the quality. Maybe I ordered that sample on the same day as I bought the Gorilla glue

billp
01-25-2010, 05:04 PM
Just a thought; if Harbor used the blank for their "sample" it might not have been a first grade piece...

dakers
01-25-2010, 05:50 PM
I would do exactly what John said. i have done something similar before using 4x4's with threaded rod and glue and it worked amazingly well.
have used this product before as well
http://www.perfectplank.com/
the sign in photo was done with perfect plank back in the 90's it was 4''thick
5550

dakers
01-25-2010, 05:57 PM
http://www.perfectplank.com/cedar_sign_blanks_signs.html

this is the price list for the cedar sign blanks. they use the recorcinol glue too.
a 2x3ft blank western red cedar 2-7/16'' thick is only $117. plus shipping

blackhawk
01-25-2010, 06:39 PM
Thanks Dick! Perfect Plank is much better priced than Allwood. The Allwood price for the 1-3/4" thickness was $126 + shipping from Harbor Sales. If I go with the 2-7/16, I won't have to worry about delamination of the two sides! Do they have any distributors on the East Coast or do they all ship direct from California?

Anyone else used Pefectplank? (absolutely no offence to Dick, I just like 2 opinions if I can get 'em)

dakers
01-25-2010, 06:45 PM
Brad, i was reading their info. only one side is finished sanded. you may want to call them. they can get two sides good.
we have made hundreds of sign with their product but we always used the finger jointed cedar. I have never bought the planks without finger jointing. but that was before we switched to hdu which we like better. Have you used the HDU before?

blackhawk
01-25-2010, 09:19 PM
Yes, I have used the HDU a few times. That was my first option to this customer, but they really wanted real wood. "Wood" is part of the company name on the sign, so I can definitely understand them wanting the cedar.

dakers
01-26-2010, 11:48 AM
Brad you mention the product from Harbor cracking.Looking at perfect planks instructions they say to paint the edges right away after reciept or they will probably crack from drying out. Once in the 1970s the local lumber company had a dip tank and when we bought redwood they would dip it in some kind of product like thompsons water seal for a day. we used an oil stain. the wood looked as good 20 years later as the day we received it. Never had results like that again.

blackhawk
01-26-2010, 01:32 PM
This crack was right in the glue joint. Harbor told me just to keep it, so I broke the whole section off over my knee. That one 8 inch area had no visible glue residue. It is just as if they missed gluing that area. As Bill said, it could have been a second that Harbor bought cheap, but it still made it out to a customer, me. I was a manufacturing engineer for 12 years, so I know myself that bad parts get out even with the best of intentions. I guess that I should be more receptive to second chances.

blackhawk
01-26-2010, 02:30 PM
Well, I just talked to Perfect Plank. Their leadtime is probably going to kill that idea. They build to order and quoted me 5 business days before shipping. Shipping from CA to VA is another 5 days. 2 weeks is going to be too long. I guess that I am back to making this one myself.

If anyone is interested, I did call Franklin about using Titebond III. They were very confident that it would work well. They told me to spread a thin layer on both sides with a brush or roller and of course, clamp it well.

ghostcreek
01-26-2010, 05:40 PM
I have used Perfect Plank (They are 10 miles from me!) Great people, great product. They may be a little slow right now, but it is the Economy, smaller staff = longer lead times. Most of what I buy from them have both sides good, although they state one side is "sign grade". Have signs in the Field for over 6 years, no troubles at all. I have used the 1 5/16" thick up to 2 7/8" thick. Try wrestling a 2 7/26"x3'x5' on to your ShopBot! That was a challenge! Biggest problem, is I hate to get rid of the scraps, they look so good!
Brad,Keep us informed how your glue-up goes.

myxpykalix
01-26-2010, 11:10 PM
Brad where are you located in Va? why are you wanting to glue up parts when you should get it as one thick piece?
This was (I think) about 24" wide by about 36" and 2" thick and this cost me $20.00 at my friends sawmill.
You don't usually see cedar that wide. Check to see if you have any sawmills closeby you can usually get some good pieces reasonable.

5551

blackhawk
01-27-2010, 09:39 AM
Jack - That is a good looking sign! I have never seen Eastern Red Cedar that wide before. I have never seen an Eastern Red Cedar tree bigger than 12" in diameter. That was a good find. Eastern cedar is very rot resistant but only about 80% as good as Western red cedar. I'll never find a piece that wide at my sawmills and if I did it would be green. I need a dry piece since I will be painting and finishing. A big solid piece of wood looks great, but it is rare for a piece that large to not warp or crack. Gluing smaller pieces together will always be more stable than one huge slab. You can alternate the growth rings of the wood in the glue up to minimize warp and twist. A bunch of smaller pieces will always move less than one big wide piece.

(I am in SW VA, town is in my profile.)

dakers
01-27-2010, 10:53 AM
Jack, looking at that wood seems to have some kind of healing effect on me. I just feel better now.
Was watching the Barret Jackson auto auctions and seeing the old woodies really amazed me. Just something about wood that resonates with me. I amy even stray from HDU now that i remembered the perfect plank days. So easy to get in a rut.

alcona_sign_shop
02-06-2010, 08:29 PM
Hi,
I'm a new kid to shopbot, and only have 30 years in the sign business. TiteboneIII is great, but!
why don't you think about vertical slats glued to the back of the sign boards and screw or nail from the face. Michigan white cedar is excellent in outdoor sign work. I'm pretty sure that Redcedar is much the same. I have found tht a flat surface glue-up is marginal at best. I like the air flow between faces, even if only 1/2". It helps dry the wood and it keeps it shape and finish.
Bill H.

blackhawk
02-06-2010, 09:07 PM
Bill - So after the slats are glued to the back, are you saying to screw the 2 halves together through the show face of the sign and then patch the screw holes? This will be a hanging sign over the sidewalk, so I'm not sure how the crack between the two signs will look. Do you ever have any trouble with bees making a nest in between the slats. We have what we call, mud dobber bees, around here and they would love to make a nest like that.

I ended up using DAP Plastic Resin Glue for gluing together the laminations for each halve. A very good suggestion from Mr. Crumley.

bleeth
02-07-2010, 07:41 AM
Brad: Dap Plastic Resin Glue is a great product when used correctly. I have been using it for laminating bent pieces such as curved doors for years. One thing to be very careful of. The powder is very unhealthy and when pouring or spooning it the dust that comes up should not be breathed.

alcona_sign_shop
02-07-2010, 10:09 PM
Brad; I guess that I should have been more clear. the space need only be 1/8th inch. Thicker spacers/slats are ok but not necessary. The object is to get air between the faces!
Another option is to use aluminum sheeting, cut to size (thickness of two signs plus the spacers) and tack it into positions, top, bottom and the two sides. Paint it to suite the wood or the painted surface.

blackhawk
03-14-2010, 09:47 PM
Well, here is picture of the finished sign. I finished it a few weeks ago, but I was waiting until my customer hung it off the building before I got a picture. My customer is a building contractor and he did all the iron work and hung the sign. I ended up using the DAP plastic resin glue and laminating the sign myself. It went together well and felt solid. I ripped and jointed all my cedar 2X4s down to 1-1/4x3. Based on Mr. Hastings and Mr. Crumley's advice, I attached the two halves of the sign together with 1" thick slats. I attached the slats with 1/4" lag bolts to each halve. I slotted the holes in the slats to allow the sign to move with moisture. I coated the backs and edges with 3 coats of Sikkens Cetol. The white and blue were Sherwin Williams acrylic latex.

After looking at my pictures, I wish that I had let the arch come down lower on the sign to eliminate some of that empty space. I also would have liked to see the sign mounted a little further off the building, but the customer took care of that part. Thanks everyone for all the help.

navigator7
03-15-2010, 07:46 AM
Brad,
The sign is fine.
I don't "get" the logo.
A vexing thing for me is whether to include an area code.
What are the arguments for and against?

joe
03-15-2010, 07:53 AM
Excellent.

One of the best first signs I've seen. I'm predicting this porject will be embeded in your mind and will be your benchmark for years to come. I'm proud of you.

Here's an un-solicited critique.

Visability................. A+
Constrution .............A+
Paint ......................B
Design.................... B
Borrder Treatment ....C-
Choice of Materials ...C
Routing Techniques ...A

Over the next year you'll see the wood settle in to it new conditions. There may be a few small glitches. That's normal and you can use these to learn from.

Keep up the good work.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

John David
03-15-2010, 09:09 AM
Nice work Brad


I am with Chuck on the AREA Code. I have traveled to alot of differebt cities with work and I gave passed on alot of companies because of no code on the sign.




JD

blackhawk
03-15-2010, 10:05 AM
Joe - Thank you for the compliment, it means a lot from you. Thanks for all the help you gave me also. I will drive by this sign at least once a week, so I will be able to keep an eye on it to see how it ages. I definitely want to learn from whatever I see happen with it over the year ahead.


John and Chuck - My customer wanted the number to appear without the area code. The yard signs that he uses at his remodel jobs are the same way. I tend to agree with you that it should be on there. My part of Virginia is pretty rural, so our area code stretches over a huge area, so I guess that is his reasoning.

I'm not sure where he picked the logo, it is supposed to be symbolic of Greek architecture. The two lines being the roof and the 3 vertical lines the columns.

toych
03-15-2010, 03:04 PM
Great job Brad,

It reminds me of the second sign I made out of cedar a little over a year ago.

My was a gift for some friends of but resulted in a couple of other cottage types signs so it was a good investment.

Like you, I asked questions here and got support and encouragement from a lot of great people willing to share their expertise.

Of course I didn't listen and used spar varnish on this sign, I know the finish is destined to fail eventually but, at least this sign is brought inside in the winter. The only thing I think I did right is to glue it up with West System epoxy.

I am also using Sikkens for any natural looking cedar signs now, I love the look of Sikkens. I went by my mother's old cottage a month ago, I finished the cedar log siding with Sikkens nine or ten years ago and it looks like it had been done within the last year. Great stuff.

navigator7
03-15-2010, 07:36 PM
Nice work Brad
I am with Chuck on the AREA Code. I have traveled to alot of different cities with work and I passed on alot of companies because of no code on the sign.JD

I live in a recreational area. The locals go by four numbers for making phone calls but the people who visit in the summer and have money to burn come from all over the nation. I'd say most haven't a clue what the local area code is but no matter what, with a cell you still have to dial the area code.

I had a business website. I got plagued with calls from across the country chasing pricing. So I instructed the webmaster to get rid of the area code. The webmaster told me of another way to limit how far the website would reach. We did both.

I guess if you are selling a product, heck yeah...include the area code. If you are selling a service and unwilling to drive or fly out of your area code....why talk to people in Florida if you live in Washington?

If a fella if paying for a sign a salesperson should have sound reasons to recommend one over the other.....perhaps just listen and take the order?