Panels & Fonts

[joe]

Panels & Fonts.

Sometimes a panel shape can be can be very powerful. It can even be stronger than it's copy.


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That works very well on occasion For example, where there's lots foot traffic, a highly designed panel with shapes, curley Q's, and dingbats may be more eye catching than a plain rectangle. These can be very difficult to design within. There are some basic rules. The first is to choose a font which doesn't conflict with the shape. Second you will need a source of fonts which will give you letter styles that fit the space. When doing this kind of work, I take several stabs at, print them out, and wait a day or two. On this kind of sign, the panel is in charge.

Some panels shapes call for particular letter styles. If you miss that one, there will be a visual conflict. You may also find it more difficult to arrange your type in a constrained area. But still, panels can set the tone and mood for a type of business. Some of the best panel CD's comes from www.goldenerastudios.com (http://www.goldenerastudios.com)

I seldom set type over a pre-constructed panel. Most often I begin by selecting a font. One of the best font builders is www.letterheadfonts.com (http://www.letterheadfonts.com). however, for the most part, these are "Headline" fonts. For body copy or for mor simple letter styles I like www.fonts.com (http://www.fonts.com). Setting my letter style usually takes most of the design time. There isn't a set rule which says you can't mix up fonts on a single line. For example.


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The "Hillcrest" is a combination of Script and Roman letters. You can be very creative with lettering once your break out of the traditional type setting mentality. After I've settled this issue, it's time to build a panel. I generaly design the panel around my copy. I'd bet most designers work that way.

It's a delicate dance when the mind is considering Line Weight, and panel shapes. You don't want to rush it.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[dakers]

Love it all. very generous contribution. good info for beginner or expert interested in improving their sign layout skill.

[myxpykalix]

joe,
your link: www.goldenerastudios.com (http://www.goldenerastudios.com) leads to a dead domain. At least for me it does.

[cdebruin]

I think the correct link is:

http://www.goldenstudios.com/

[joe]

Thanks fellows,

When visiting Mikes website, I'd suggest taking the time to view his Thumbnails. I like his "Americana" collection.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[curtiss]

161,871 fonts available on fonts.com

so I am still looking....

[joe]

For anyone interested, I've attached a breakdown showing the process of building the panel around copy.

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It should be made clear, panels such as those offered by Golden Era, can be easily edited and changed through node editing.

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The top panels is direct from their file, the next is node edited and the bottom panel has been altered through distortion. All of their panels are very clean and sharp. They come in eps. ai. corel, etc. Golden Era is much more than panels. They have hundred's of finials, dingbats, and scrolls.

I hope my description on the two ways to approach panel designs makes sence.

I'm not sure about ArtCam, Inspire, and other routing programs being deep design programs. They have some fundamental characteristics but few of the Photshop, Adobe Illistrator, Flexi Sign capabilities. One of the most affordable desing programs is Corel. Older versions can be purchased very cheap. Most of us do not need the latest version.

Happy Routing

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

"It's not what you say that counts, It's what you do"!

[butch]

Joe
Thanks, always learn something from your posts.

Butch

[dakers]

One interesting note. There is a sign company here that uses these type vintage panels and these fonts for almost every sign they do along with flourishes, dingbats from these sites.

http://kingswaysign.com/ is their website.

They are an interesting company. they are out in the country, sell pumpkins, they have a farm. The wife is an artist. They have really changed the sign climate around here because no one else was offering these types of vintage looking signs and i think they have been very successful.

really do have a following of customers who really like this look. Their work has that vintage look. People just love that look around here. They make the sign posts match the signs also. The builders especially seem to like these styles around here.

[joe]

Dick,

Thanks for posting the "Kingsway" sign information. They make some very nice signs. Hope to see more from them in the future.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[olf20]

Joe - what version(s) of Corel?
Thanks Bob

[powerlsc]

Bob,
If you have a student or teacher in your family they can buy it (with proof of course schedule) at academicsuperstore.com. The upgrade to CorelDraw4 is $94 from them. Otherwise Amazon had some good buys.

I have Draw3 and have downloaded directly from Corel.com the free 15 day trial of Draw4 to see if it is that much different.

[joe]

Bob,

I'd suggest you also look at Ebay for version X3. Although I don't use it much, it's and excellent program. Be sure to get the full version, which includes the Clip ART books.

Before you go that step however, you may want to to to Lynda.com and view some of their free How To corel samples.

Good luck to you.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[olf20]

Thanks Lynn and Joe. I will investigate and see what I can get.
Thanks again!!
olf20 / Bob

[henrik_olofgors]

So, when can we get Mr. Crumley to write a book?

This is a great thread. I've been thinking a lot about signs lately. On Mr. Crumley's advice I got Mastering Layout - Mike Stevens on theart of eye appeal. It's a gem. But on reading it, I realized there wasn't much point in trying to do signs. First things first, so I'm trying to train the eye, trying to become conscious about that form of visual communication around me. I have progressed to the stage where I'm doodling a bit and attempting to sketch things out (got me a Wacom!), however, so maybe next year or so I'll be ready to actually commit to cutting something


On the topic of this thread, one thing that bothers me when I have tried to use panels like these in sketches is that they're too perfect. There is something about the end result not looking 'real', or perhaps a better way to put it is that it lacks 'soul'. It's beautiful, yes, but somehow it's just not that interesting. Like a supermodel in a glossy magazine. Perfect, yes, beautiful, yes. But how would she look on the couch at home? What would you talk about? Is she even real? While I'd be willing to give the latter a try, heh, the point, I guess, is that if you put something too perfect in an environment that is real, that is not perfect, then it can be as beautiful as a thousand sunsets and it still won't look real, it will look out of place. When I dabble with these panels, I can't get it to work with the kind of places I imagine they'd be hung or put if they were to be cut and painted.

The best thing would be if one could make one's own panels, but I am quite a bit away from being able to do that and maybe I don't have the gift necessary anyway. What I've tried to do, the next best thing, is to look for complement designs that are far from perfect. Dover and other publishers have a lot of material on historical ornamentation, and there's a treasure trove in many historical/archeological/art history books. Most of this stuff really isn't suited to do signs, it wasn't what it was meant for. But in many cases I think one can pick up things here and there and add that to the kind of panels one buys in the professional collections, to kind of de-professionalize it, break it up, make it a bit wilder and, well, 'real'.

Below is a pic of a sketch I'm trying to come to terms with now and then when I feel inclined. The center shield and the horizontal panel are from a professional collection, but the dragon ornamentation enclosing it is originally from a silver vase that was dug up from the earth back in the fifties on the island of Gotland here in Sweden. There's still a lot of work to get proportions and spaces right, or somewhere near right, but I think as an example of this kind of 'mixing it up' it kind of works.


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Anyway, great thread. One of these days I'm going to get a big bag, come over to the US and kidnap you sign professionals, bring you here and we could live as kings. There just isn't anything even remotely like it here in Sweden, the artisan sign craft doesn't exist.

So, gentlemen, you have been warned. Now, back to the drawing pad. These wacom tablets take some time to get used to, megods.

[dakers]

Henrik, I appreciate reading your post. It is a reminder to me that "perception is reality".
I think in making a sign for a customer we probably have to know what his perception of quality is and then try to incorporate some or all of that into the design. I have done so many signs that i was so proud of and the customer did not like them at all.
I am trying to learn to really involve the customers ideas as a preventitive to a possible future problem. What i like about what Crumley brings to this forum is that he reminds me of options i have to use to solve problems in working with customers. it goes like this
Problem leads to options, options lead to discussion, discussion leads to decision, decision leads to execution, execution leads to evaluation.
if the customer is involved in some of this it seems to come out better unless they really trust what i am going to do and accept it regardless, Most problems we have had is related to colors and text size. We are trying hard to eliminate problems before they happen. The Crumley approach is one i would like to incorporate more into the designs we do. That being using everything at my disposal to make the best product possible.

[joe]

Henrik,

I always enjoy seeing your handy work and posts.

And thanks for posting your concerns and difficulties with sign design. We all learn from posts like yours.

With respect to designing with premade panels, it can be done but, it's not for me either. I start by considering the type of business. For Example; A “Circus Sign” has a different look than a “Funeral Home” or a “Veterinary” shouldn't look anything like a “Wedding Shop”. Until you have this down solid and understand the cultures associated with businesses, there will be problems.

I search for fonts that will convey my message. Choosing the right font and altering it usually takes the major amount of time. Then I focus on the panel design which will support the font.

When designing Ranch Signs, I check out what other signs artists have done. Same goes for Wedding Chapels. You get the idea. We don't have to re-build the wheel all over again. What I suggest doing is (Cheat)! Just like ancient art students have done, copy, copy and copy. That's what an apprenticeship is all about. So you have my permission. Find a sign or artist and do what they are doing. Don't worry about getting stuck by doing this. You'll learn so much there won't be any holding you back.

I'd like to see your panel design without the color. Could you post it as a wire line drawing?

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[dlcw]

I am a firm believer in NOT reinventing the wheel. "Never create what you can beg, borrow or steal" :-)

Joe, I have been wanting to get into sign work and your posts are such a great education and inspiration to help me make the jump. Thank you so much!!!

Don
www.diamondlakewoodworks.com (http://www.diamondlakewoodworks.com)

[phil_o]

My barber has asked me to make a sign for his barber shop. His only requirements are that the sign include a barber pole and his last name. I'd very much appreciate some suggestions as to appropriate panels and fonts for a sign of this nature.

[joe]

Phil

What's his name?

[dakers]

Phil,
the following is not meant to deter you or anyone.
just reporting how we start a project and why.
if this is an exterior sign it is best to check the local sign zoning laws as first step. You can also have barber do it. You may need to buy a sign permit. This may not be an applicable suggestion for your city, for our city they have so many restrictions that we are very limited as to what is legal. We usually do the zoning homework as first step, then try to initiate a consistant image for customer in all his advertising so we take a look at his phone ads, business cards, etc. to see if there is something good there already we can use.
I do get frustrated with some sign zoning issues. we have had to spend up to $2,400. to get a permit for a sign that did not cost as much as permit. The City here requires us to submit a stamped architects drawing of the sign, installation, footer, windload, etc. This way they do not have to be liable if the sign blows down and kills someone. We have to have an one million dollar insurance policy to protect the city if a sign falls down and damages things or they will not give us a permit. then we have to have a sign license for every city or area we work in.
If we put up a sign without a permit the city sends the customer a letter stating he is violation of zoning laws and if he does not remove sign or comply there will be a daily fine of $250.00

[phil_o]

Dick, thanks for the information. Fortunately this will be an indoor sign.
Joe, the barber's name is Castoldi.

[joe]

Phil,

The attached file was done with one of Mike Jacksons standard Panels. I just set the copy and made a quickey barber pole.

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[carlosgmarroquin]

Joe, you amaze me.

Thank you for sharing your abilities

[dakers]

If you hang around a barber shop long enough you are bound to get a haircut. If you hang around Crumley long enough you are bound to get an education on design. This is a very nice composition that many would not have thought of. Back in the day the barber pole was a sign unto itself. People knew just from the pole they could get a haricut. So i really like the thought behind the layout to do a vertical design and make the barber pole large. COOL.

[dakers]

http://barberpoles.us/
this place sells vintage barber poles.
also a history of the barber pole
cool

[phil_o]

Thanks Joe. It's a wonderful design. I've been working with a few ideas of my own but wasn't happy with any of them. I'm sure others who see this will be inspired also.

[ghostcreek]

Thanks Joe, I am always inspired by your work. Thank You Dick, the info on sign laws & codes are often overlooked by folks starting out. Everyplace has its own set of codes and rules. easy to check out, then no surprises on the job. And no charges you have to eat! There is a lot of wisdom on this forum. I thank each and everyone who posts. Any one work with wood from the olive tree? I have a chance to score some "logs".

[joe]

Michael,

You lucky dog. I'd just about kill for a chance to work with Olive wood although I've never seen it machined.

As I remember, this is a slow growing tree, which means it's probably dense. And if memory serves, it has character to the outside bark and surface area. What an opportunity.

Joe

[phil_o]

I worked with Joe's design in Aspire. I have a 3D clip of a barber pole that I used in the drawing. Attached is the Aspire screenshot. I'll probably roundover the perimeter as well. I'm wondering if the name should be Castoldi's rather than Castoldi.

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[joe]

Good going Phil,

I hadn't really thought about 3D carving. I think a barber plole could be carved by itsself painted and then applied.

Most of the time I cut everything seperaately, paint and apply. That way I don't worry about masking.

Good job.

[phil_o]

I finally completed the Barber Shop sign. Thanks for the design help Joe. I'm very happy with it. I used oak for the plaque and maple for the pole.

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[dakers]

i like the interesting simplicity of this.
it draws me in to study it further in an era of artificial this brings nostalgic feelings to me that i like which i think is appropriate for this customer whether he runs his business like an old time barber shop or simply paying tribute to one.

[joe]

Phil,

You've done an excellent job.

Woops one thing left to to do! This quality work deserves your signature along the bottom. A fine tip majic marker would polish it off.

[Mayo]

Joe probably already knows about these other sources for panels and ornaments, but for anyone else interested in additional sources for older style designs, check out Don Copelen's digitized versions of Palm's Ornaments. These were originally designed for use on carriages.

http://www.letterheadsignsupply.com/commercecgi/commerce.cgi?page=Clipart.htm

And there's also The Butler Gold collection by David Butler
http://www.letterheadsignsupply.com/commercecgi/commerce.cgi?page=Clipart.htm

These collections may both be available at other sign supply sources or other online sources.

[joe]

Mayo,

I'm so glad you posted Palms clipart. I have a couple of their CD's but haven't been able to do anything with them. They're nice drawings and I wish I find a way of using them. The problem I have is this. They are all double lined and can't be broken apart. Perphaps I could machine along a vector?

Have you had any luck with these?

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[rb99]

You cannot "uncompound" them?

RIB

[joewino]

Mike Jackson also has some excellent CD's of panels, scrolls, and various ding bats. He's a signman orginally from Moore, Oklahoma (near Mr. Crumley) but now lives in Jackson Hole, Wy.

www.goldenerastudios.com (http://www.goldenerastudios.com)

Oops...I didn't realize that Joe had begun this thread with a reference to Mike's CD's. Sorry Mr.Crumley - just mark it up to my old age.

[joe]

Richard,

It's not that they are welded together, it's the way they were made. Each file, and it's parts are double lined and contigusious. If you delete either the outside or inside line the image doesn't work very well. I think these were made for printing.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[rcnewcomb]

I believe the link is:
http://www.goldenstudios.com/

[joe]

Thankd Randall!