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webbhead
04-12-2004, 04:50 AM
OK... the 30"x30" design was the easy part (see http://www.webbwoodworks.com/images/www_logo.gif), now to figure out cutting & construction. For the base panel & the letters (to be painted metalic gold), I'm using the pink insulation foam paneling at 3/4" inch thick. Letters are to be profiled with a v-bit on the top surface, then straight cut clean from the material. In tests, I couldn't get tabbing to work, & if I go all the way through, the letters get mangled, so I'm thinking I'll leave a 1/16" skin & cut the rest of the way with an exacto.

I'm using Bill P's epoxy technique with some Envirotex Lite to seal/harden all foam parts prior to painting with the gold. Next, I'm using 1/8" thick luan sheets to be stained with these bright Woodburst stains, so the grain shows through nice & sweet. I'll stack & glue the stained 2-d shapes & the 2.5d letters. I'm thinking this polyurethane glue should do the trick, but I didn't know if I should use an additional mount for the letters with less surface area... maybe some dowels or something. I will be sealing everything with Varathane Diamond Spar, which is water based, max UV (or so they say), & non-yellowing. I figure this will aid in binding, so I didn't know if I needed the dowels or not. I figure, if it falls apart, I can just make another one, & try some dowels & some of that Cetol or Pellucid the guys were talking about awhile back.

I was planning on cutting a second brown base panel for the sign's backside (which is not exposed) to create a sandwich on the gold foam & give it more rigidity & weight. Black screws & washers near each corner with washers/nuts on backside could be used to prevent any peeling away from the foam base & perhaps provide chain mounts, but I'd rather not have any hardware show. The sign will hang on chains connected to the holder which consists of two 6' tall 4x4 posts with a cross member joining 'em at 5'6"... all ends coffered at 45's. The sign will have its gawkers (mostly curious neighbors), but for the most part won't be subject to touch/vandalism, etc.

Now the tough stuff... how to do the 3d elements. I've modeled the mouse & chisel in Rhino, but that was a pain & they have meshing problems I'll never understand without wasting a ton of time. I was thinking I could 2.5d the chisel & mouse somehow in wood or foam by cutting the top view for each, then hand shaping the rest or perhaps using ramping techniques in Visual Mill4 (which seems powerful but time consuming on the learning curve). The WWW on the cube will be traced/vectorized & straight cut 2d. The cube... I don't know. From the front view, it was rotated 45 degrees on the z-axis, then tilted forward X- degrees to show the top W. I'm thinking of squashing it's depth to fit a nugget of stock 2x10, then having Visuall Mill tool it. Either that or just hand shape it & paint it... perhaps from some of this "butterboard" stuff the neighbor gave me, which is high density foam he uses to hand tool 1/24 scale classic car body molds.

Any insights much appreciated,

John

letterman7
04-12-2004, 10:42 AM
John,
I would consider using the 18lb HDU for this project. You could eliminate 80% of the laminate work with it. Personally, for spice, I would V-carve the copy and gild it. The cube is easy: glue up a block to size, and bandsaw it to fit. The nice thing about the HDU is you can glue it together with Gorilla Glue or even the foam-in-a-can insulation (provided you clamp the pieces tightly enough). The polyurethane used in all these products is exactly the same stuff- just in varying densities.
But I would carve by hand the mouse and the chisel and even the burst out of the base piece of urethane. It will save headaches later on with delamination and glue-up.
The other potential problem is the gold paint: I've never seen one other than a two part urethane automotive finish that does not fade to brown after 3 months.
As for hanging; drive 6" x 3/8" stainless screw eyes right into the top. A sign this small wouldn't weigh much, and you could always throw another screw eye with a chain to the post to prevent swaying in the wind.
Just some thoughts from a sign guy with many years dealing with HDU!

billp
04-12-2004, 12:48 PM
John,
For the gold paint try "One Shot metallic brass". It looks exactly like gold leaf, and DOES hold up... Their "gold" looks like mustard compared to the brass...
One note that may make this project easier for you ( and others doing occasional signs); as Rick points out above HDU is a much better foam to work with, BUT most of us don't want to buy a full sheet of it for a small job. There will be a company at the Jamboree that is going to market HDU foam in whatever size you need, so you (and all of us) can buy just what we need to get a job done...

webbhead
04-13-2004, 02:06 AM
Thanks guys- some good ideas... Thought about the cut from one piece idea, but I like the idea of not having to do any masking or touch up as with pocketing. I also like the beauty, cost, & availability of the 1/8" thick wood sheets done up in some of these stains.

Called around locally on HDU today & nobody seems to know what I'm talking about. I know I can get the stuff on the web, but ideally I would like to save shipping costs/delays, & implement designs that use "readily available" stock.

I saw some posts on similar materials from Owens Corning or something. Guess I'll be calling them tomorrow. 1-Shot seems to be another popular material not readily available. Where do you get yours Bill? The gold I have is some "24 kt" spray that I picked up at ACE. Was hoping the UV blocker in the clearcoat would preserve the gold tone. Sounds like I'm mistaken...

billp
04-13-2004, 07:41 AM
John,
I have a local Framing shop which carries "art supplies", but I'll bet you can find a One Shot distributor near you from the web.
I also would not totally write off all sprays withut testing them. I've had test strips sitting on my window ledge for 18 months now with different brands of gold, covered by everything from water based polys, to a marine varnish. The colors have held up very well, but some of the finishes are starting to show signs of wear, so there IS a time factor but I haven't reached it's limit yet.

kerrazy
04-13-2004, 08:06 AM
As you apply UV protectant clear coats your gold looses its' luster. Here is some info on a product called Frog Juice. http://www.signcraftersupply.com/product_details.asp?ProdCat1=Paint&ProdCat2=Clear+ Coats&ProdID=21 (http://www.signcraftersupply.com/product_details.asp?ProdCat1=Paint&ProdCat2=Clear% 2BCoats&ProdID=21)
Have a peek at it and you can also order one shot from these folks as well and it is in CDN dollars so you save some dough!
Dale

kerrazy
04-13-2004, 08:16 AM
I really like your design. I would maybe have a look at your cube though and consider what may happen with rain and elements on it. Depending on how far out it projects may cause some concern for rain getting in and causing problems. I would definatly mill the cube and letters seperatly and apply, and seal the edges where the letter meet the cube with calking so moisture does not get into this area and cause them to seperate. Another real simple solution is to get someone to do a 3d Edge print for you so it looks like it is raised from the surface.

Also, Try 23K gold leaf for your letters. Nothing compares and nothing lasts like gold leaf. It is really quite a simple application and will give you a tremendous bang for your buck. if you have questions about applying it drop me an email and I will walk you through it.

I am very keen on seeing it completed it will look great.
Dale

letterman7
04-13-2004, 09:56 PM
John -
Let me know if you want a piece of the foam. I have quite a bit of cutoff laying about, ranging from a few 1" pieces to 2 1/2" (I think - I'll have to check). I would be glad to send you one to work with. Some sign suppliers also have damaged sheets that they will sell at a discount. Or, optionally, ask for their "topper" sheets - the sheets that are on top of the skid, and therefore have some damage from straps and shipping. Typically they are 1/2", but you could probably get a few at no cost and glue them together to work with. Ask me how I know ;-)! I'm not sure where Paradise is in CA, but SignFoam (Sign Arts Products) is based in CA - can't say where a the moment; for some reason Marina DelMar comes to mind, but their number is 800-338-4030. they've got a great little booklet showing how to finish, techniques and whatnot. I'm sure they would have listing on who has the product in your area.
Bill - good points on One Shot, but eventually they will fade. I haven't had success past a year with any of their metallics - how long have yours lasted? Taking into account latitude / seasons and such, of course. Oh, and butterboard is a generic name for HDU. I believe that Precision Board is the equivalant.
Dale - Frog Juice is good stuff. I usually have all my small digital prints coated with it, and it does last. Got to find his formula! As with Dale, if you want help with leafing, let me know. Sooner of later I'll get around to posting some pieces here.
Have fun!

webbhead
04-14-2004, 12:28 PM
Yeesh... I was going to go for the One Shot on the gold, but the leafing sounds like it will last longer. I think I can get gold leaf from Michael's, etc. Gold leaf is essentially like foil, right,... with a micro layer of real gold on top? I also like the caulk idea for top edges if I can be discreet with it. I'll call those guys on the SignFoam & Precision Board. My sign is one thing, but I hate to have a customer's sign fall apart.

kerrazy
04-14-2004, 04:40 PM
Ensure if Gold leaf is the way you are going to go that you choose real 23K gold leaf not dutch gold. Or any less karats either, as it will not last.
Dale

letterman7
04-15-2004, 08:24 AM
John,
The "gold" from the craft stores are rarely the real thing. I agree with Dale; make sure it says 22 or 23kt gold.
For years I have bought gold from Art Essentials of New York - 1-800-283-5323 www.artessentialsofnewyork.com (http://www.artessentialsofnewyork.com)
They have everything related to leafing, and the prices are right. A full pack (box of 20 "books", 25 "leaves" to a book) runs at the moment $337.oo. Gold doesn't go bad, so you can store the rest until you need it. You'll need a small tin of gold size; essentially a varnish. I have used spar varnish in a pinch in the past - you just have to time it right.
Another idea to spin off of Dale' (for your cube) is to mill each "side" of the cube out of one piece of foam/wood/whatever, with the letter raised from the background. Hand bevel the edges to it fits together (not to difficult - test with some scrap)and glue it with poly glue.
I think the most basic thing here is it's your sign - you can get to experiment a little. If you have the time, make two or three at a reduced scale and see what works for you! There's nothing written in stone how a sign should be made (local ordinances excepted...)and that's the beauty of this biz and what makes one sign guy stand out from another. Have fun!

letterman7
04-15-2004, 08:45 AM
Let me see if I can upload some photos...all showing with gold or variegated leaf.
All these signs are HDU, by the way
6023
6024
6025

kerrazy
04-15-2004, 09:17 AM
Nice work Rick.
Lefranc Gold size works well, you can use slow size (12 hour drying time)and quick size(3 hour drying time) or combine the two for a medium paced size 6-8 hour drying time)....Food for thought. Also you will need to invest in a guilders tip, a busrnishing brush and some sort of talcum powder or clay to dust the entire surface before applying the size. you can also by just single books of 25 leaves for about $30.00 USD. I would also suggest some OneShot Chrome yellow paint to add to the size so you can easily see where you applied the size. Mack sells some great brushes for applying the size and painting oil based and waterbbased paints.
When it was all said and done I set up our shop for sign work with these accessories for about $600.00 intially, with all brushes, gold leaf in 23K and 16K, slow and fast size,smalts (crushed glass), smalts honey, several mack oil and waterbased brushes. This intial investment will last for many years with the exceptiuon of the gold leaf and smalts products as they are consumed with each sign produced. The other tool (brushes, Guilding supplies ) will last for years if properly cared for.
Dale

webbhead
04-16-2004, 12:24 PM
What about brass leaf, silver, & copper leaf?... Longevity?... also- smalts, where do you buy the stuff? This is about the only site I found that sells the stuff... for glass blowing... http://crloo.com/Products/Overlay_Colors/Q-Colors_4/q-colors_4.html. What about art sand as a reflector? Anyone doing this?...

On the leafing- I assume the foam letters will be epoxied first, then gold sizing, then leafed. Or should I go sizing, leaf, then epoxy...?

letterman7
04-16-2004, 05:53 PM
John,
any leaf other than gold has to be cleared with a lacquer or other clear or it will turn. I've had good success with auto lacquer with copper leaf - lasting four years or more. Smalts can be obtained thru the website I posted above. Check out www.signweb.com (http://www.signweb.com) for other discussion forums, manufacturers and whatnot. Also www.signindustry.com (http://www.signindustry.com) has similar stuff.
HDU only needs primed and painted. I've never epoxied anything, never saw the need. Never epoxy over real gold, you'll risk the leaf lifting. I've always primed my foam with a sandable spray primer, followed by a color coat of my choice of finish. Latex, oil, lacquer, whatever all work well.
Keep asking questions - the only dumb one is the one not asked!
Have fun!
Rick

Brady Watson
04-17-2004, 08:50 AM
There is an excellent UV resistant clear laquer called Permalac. It has been tested outside and lasts about 10yrs. I have been tinting it with dye and using it over metal as a sealer. Nice stuff!

http://www.peacocklabs.com/pdf/permalacdescription.pdf

-Brady

kerrazy
04-17-2004, 10:53 AM
john,
Not to discount Rick's info, as it works well, I would suggest using acrylic latex paint. Sand the HDU surface and ease all the edges then apply a product called Jay Cooke Primer. It is a high build primer that adhears to most surfaces and will fill in the pores of the HDU. I would strongly suggest two coats of this primer. Set up a good fan to blow air across the surface to help cure the surface. Then apply two coats of your finish colour in an acrylic latex. The reason I and many other sign people have chosen acrylic latex is that it breathes and as it ages it does not harden , so as material expands and contracts the acrylic latex has enough elasticity in it to expand and contract with the substrate and thus does not crack. It also has great UV protection and does not fade as easily as oil based products due to the pigment formula. From here you then appply your gold leaf size and wait for it to cure then apply your gold leaf.
Again, as Rick mentioned I would only recommend 23K gold leaf, as any other form of leaf has metal alloys in it and will tarnish and break down very easily. and Laquer just does not cut it in my humble opinion. I would if you choose another type of leaf cover it with frog juice.

Joe Crumley, gave me a great tip of using an epoxy applied with a syringe on raised letters, It will offer you a very smooth surface to guild too and thus increase the brilliance of the gold leaf.
Dale

kerrazy
04-17-2004, 11:02 AM
john,
Not to discount Rick's info, as it works well, I would suggest using acrylic latex paint. Sand the HDU surface and ease all the edges then apply a product called Jay Cooke Primer. It is a high build primer that adhears to most surfaces and will fill in the pores of the HDU. I would strongly suggest two coats of this primer. Set up a good fan to blow air across the surface to help cure the surface. Then apply two coats of your finish colour in an acrylic latex. The reason I and many other sign people have chosen acrylic latex is that it breathes and as it ages it does not harden , so as material expands and contracts the acrylic latex has enough elasticity in it to expand and contract with the substrate and thus does not crack. It also has great UV protection and does not fade as easily as oil based products due to the pigment formula. From here you then appply your gold leaf size and wait for it to cure then apply your gold leaf.
Again, as Rick mentioned I would only recommend 23K gold leaf, as any other form of leaf has metal alloys in it and will tarnish and break down very easily. and Laquer just does not cut it in my humble opinion. I would if you choose another type of leaf cover it with frog juice.

Joe Crumley, gave me a great tip of using an epoxy applied with a syringe on raised letters, It will offer you a very smooth surface to guild to and thus increase the brilliance of the gold leaf.
Dale

kerrazy
04-17-2004, 11:43 AM
John here is some more usefull info about HDU sign material:
As taken from Signweb: http://signweb.com/dimensional/cont/hduexposed.html

Another potential gaffe is applying paint too soon after priming. Because HDU is entirely nonporous and doesn't absorb moisture, drying occurs from the outside in. Because it dries quickly on the surface, it's possible to apply paint or a sandblasting mask before it's completely dry. Applying either paint or mask to undried primer will result in the paint blistering when it's placed in the sun. Also, maskant will pull off primer when it's removed after blasting.

"I recommend always placing a large fan across from the substrate for at least four hours prior to applying paint or mask," Miller says. "The frictional heat of the air rolling over the surface will slightly heat the surface and draw out moisture."

I recommend reading the whole atricle available at the above link.
Dale

webbhead
04-18-2004, 04:42 AM
Man, I love this forum. You guys have been a great help. I've ordered some HDU, but for this sign, I've already cut the letters in the pink foam, & epoxied them. They look great on the top & side beveled surfaces, but there's a few boogers I'll need to sand off the side faces here & there. I will prime them tomorrow, & then hit them with the metallic brass from One Shot, followed by the UV sealer after layer assembly.

I'd love to pursue the gold leaf, but the time/money factor comes into play, & I haven't hit a satisfying rhythm in this learning curve yet (w/ day job, home, & family, I've got only a couple hours a night to devote & weekends are largely consumed by home projects). There'd be a significant challenge in leafing the crotches of the Woodworks' W's for lack of access, on top of the inherent challenges of learning leafing.

I can see Rick's point in the value of cutting it all from one piece in HDU. Cutting out the individual letters was time consuming cuz I couldn't go all the way through, & SB tabbing doesn't seem to work with text. I had to use a long razor/craft blade to cut the remaining 1/16" of skin I left. Next time, I think I'll build a final cut drawing from the original, that has tabs built into it using Draw's trim function w/ intersecting box shapes for tabs, then remove segments for unwanted cuts to letter interiors.

Applying the epoxy also took a good chunk of time (the night owl in me had me apllying from 11pm to 1am last night). The result appears fantastic with the smoothness, but now, I'll have to use the long blade to cut them from the drying pedastools (upside down spray paint lids), as the excess epoxy has grabbed onto them too.

HDU would eliminate all these steps, but I can still see using the pink foam/epoxy for a few 3d graphics... just not text.

kerrazy
04-18-2004, 08:19 AM
A trick on the epoxy, that you can use next time.
Cut a few strips of plywood (1/2" thich) - 3 inches wide 2-3 feet long and then nail finishing nails (1 1/2 long) through it in two rows roughly an inch a part. The next time you need to epoxy something set the item on these racks and epoxy should not get caught up on the surface as the item you are epoxing will suspended by the bed of nails.
Dale

webbhead
04-18-2004, 03:29 PM
Yeah... thought about that but was worried I wouldn't have it level, so epoxy would runoff & not self level... I realize that's just paranoid thinking now, & I could eyeball it good enough - & save more cutting time!

wayneo
02-20-2006, 02:04 PM
OK Guys, I need to tap into the wealth of knowledge and experience here.... I am experimenting with making some embossed paper prints (made by pressing wet paper-heavy against a relief carved wood block). I would like to try printing the outline of the carved area on the paper with a gold leaf type of ink or acrylic paint. The idea here is to result in an embossed print with metalic finish.

I don't know if it is possible to do this type of thing with "Real Gold Leaf" or not. Maybe some of you expert sign painters would be willing to guide me in the process I am trying to achieve???

Any guidance or suggestions for type of ink, paint, processes and suppliers - greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance, this forum is a truly great resource!

Wayneo

joe
02-20-2006, 11:29 PM
John,

Good to see your design. I like it!

Here are a couple of suggestions.

Insted of carving the Chisel, & Mouse, use the real thing. You can prime and paint them for impact. Saves lots of time.

Thicken up the outside border. This will visually hold your image together.

Every good piece of art has one dominent area. You can make a better statement by reducing some elements.

It's good to see you joining the sign trade.

J