Painting techniques

[bjenkins]

I want to tap into some the experience of this forum on a topic a little off the mainstream. I am finding lots of interest in simple v-carved signs and am pretty happy with the ShopBot capabilities. I have not found a good way to paint the v-carved letters quickly and easily in a contrasting color. I tried carving through gerber mask, but it didn't cut very cleanly. I've attached an example of a small sign that gives the idea of what I would like to do. Thanks for you help and ideas.
6079

[jay]

Bud, I use scrap vinyl. There is a trick. First I base coat the sign with my background colour and let it dry 2 days. Apply the vinyl that was leftover from another job and give it a day to bond to the sign blank. The next day I cut the v-carved sign. I then use a HVLP with a water based clear finish and shoot the sign making sure there is a good seal between the vinyl and the v-cut. After it is dry I then hand paint or spray the letters with the same HVLP. When the paint is dry I then give the face of the sign a quick sanding to break the seal around the letters and peal off the vinyl mask.

I used to have a problem with the paint in the letters running or bleeding untill Dale Kerr suggested sealing the cut edges of the mask with a clear coat. The same finish that you will be using to finish the sign with after it is all painted.
Good luck, Jay

[Brady Watson]

Jay,
"When the paint is dry I then give the face of the sign a quick sanding to break the seal around the letters and peal off the vinyl mask."

Are you saying that when you are done painting the v-carving, you just sand down to bare vinyl and peel it off? Thanks for the tip on the clear over the vinyl (you too Dale!)

-Brady

[edcoleman]

Jay,

I'll have to give your sealing trick a try. I've used vinyl mask before and found it a bit frustrating, maybe this is the step I've been missing.

I've used a different technique for several signs:

1) V carve your sign blank
2) spray your inlay color across the entire sign
3) using a firm foam roller, and a light touch, roll the contrasting color on the sign.

If you are careful and use light coats you can avoid getting any paint into the lettering.

Sometimes the edges of the V carving are not as crisp as using a mask, but with a little practice the results are acceptable.

-Ed

[jay]

Brady, very light sanding just enough to break most of the clear coat bond around the v-carved letters. The way you say it "you just sand down to bare vinyl and peel it off?" sounds too agressive.

Ed, I have used your method as well but using an ink roller instead,(hard rubber) less chance of the contrasting colour getting into the v-carve. But like you, I have not been satisfied with the lack of crispness.

The best bit I have found is a CMT 60 degree Laser Point Bit either a half inch shank, 858.501.11 or if I can't get the half inch a quarter inch, 858.001.11. $36.50 Canadian. Come to think of it, it was in the basic start-up bits I purchased from ShopBot when I purchased my Bot.

Jay

[stickman]

Hey Guys,

Can you give some of use others an idea of what type of vinyl you use? Maybe a couple on-line places to find it. I've tired it a couple time, using a mask, my problem was, I was not letting have time to set. I do like the idea of a coat of clear coat.

Jay

[bjenkins]

Jay,

Thanks for the great tips! Your process sounds like it would yield the highest quality results. I have a couple questions. What kind of paint are you using-- it probably effects the adhesion and the quality of cut on the vinyl. Is it oil or acrylic base? I'm hoping to use acrylics instead of something like One Shot. Also, have you used lower angle bits-- say a 120 degree for example-- and still got good cuts on the vinyl?

Ed & Jay,

I have played with the roller technique. I was looking for an ink roller, but now I think I have the answer to that experiment.

Stickman,

I'm assuming Jay was refering to sign vinyl. I use premium grade vinyl by Gerber available at the local sign supply house.

Jay,

Have you tried contact paper. Another sign guy told me he uses it to mask. It has good adhesion and is much cheaper. I might try it if you haven't already.

Thanks everyone for the great discussion. This forum is great!

Bud

[jay]

Bud, the largest angle I have used for my run of the mill v-cut signs is 90 degrees with sign vinyl that yes, I get from local sign supply house.

I have tried contact paper but found it did not cut as crisply as does the vinyl.

Paint depends on the effect I want. Premium quality Acrylic, One Shot, etc.

Patience is the key to a good job being better

I am only as good as the last job out the door. I believe if customers get what they want and a little bit more they may tell one or two other people . . .but if they get less than they expect they will bitch to over the 200 people they know.

PS I love foam and epoxy too.

6080

[robtown]

Jay,
What epoxy do you use over the pink foam? And have you tried the blue foam (Dow)?

R

[jay]

Sorry guys for diverting this thread from V-carving.

Opps, the sign above was 4" blue high density foam. In the picture above I had to put on six coats of apoxy as the bottom pieces of the sign are only 5 feet off the ground. But that is what the purchaser wanted so it required extra coats. I also made sure it was well insured as I will probably be replacing the odd part of it. Hmm, manybe I should cut and epoxy some extra pieces during a slow time, just in case.

I wish I could get the picture to better show the letters the ISO letters came out beautifully.

I use West system Epoxy, slow cure, I'm not at the shop at the moment and can't remember the number of the hardner.

But getting back to v-carving here is the results of todays efforts. Base coat sign in Special Walnut stain. Dry for 2 days. Cut sign then HVLP shot it with Exterior Diamond Urathane front and back six coats.
This sign is 28 X 18 inches wide. Will be hung from the top to a standard crossbar sign post.


6081

[bjenkins]

Beautiful work, Jay. Thanks for posting the example.

Bud

[kerrazy]

Hey folks,
I have not chimed in for a while as I have been pretty busy in the shop making ...well frankly a lot of dust.
As far as vinyl masks are concerned, I have had great success with gerber mask 2. it is a really high tack mask that I apply to a finished surface. I will list the order of operation i use and it yeilds very successful results.

NB. Ensure front and back of sign have equal amounts of coatings to equalize stress on substrate.
1. prime substrate, sand and prime again.
2. Sand primed surface smooth, then apply a minimum of 2 coats of surface colour. I use acrylic latex as it has some great elasticity and will not fade or crack over time.

3. Apply vinyl mask, then apply butchers wax to the surface of the vinyl to reduce paint adhesion to vinyl surface.

4. Carve sign as desired.

5. remove dust from carved surfaces thouroghly. Then apply 2 thinned coats of sign blank colour to carved areas, so if paint bleeds under the mask it will match substrate colour, and form a seal of the mask.

6. Apply to coats of primer to carved areas.

7. apply a minimum of two caots of desired colur to carved areas.

(Note if using one shot lettering enamels, you can now remove mask while one shot is still wet and it will give you a nice clean edge.)

8. ease surface tension of vinyl mask by sanding surface and breaking seal of carved areas. With the wax you will find the paint and primer releases very easy.

9. carefully remove the mask ensuring before hand all edges of carved areas are sanded. If not you will infact have an increased chance of pulling all layers of finish out of the carved area.

10. sit back and admire your work.

Any further questions email me and I will be happy to explain further.

Dale

[kerrazy]

Also,
Something else I learned. Try a 90degree or 120 degree v-bit for carved letters, as this reduce the depth of the letter, and thus allows more light to reflect from the letter, rather than getting trapped into the walls of the letter like a 60 degree v-bit.
Your signs will take on a whole new look, and really feature the v-carving.

I will post some examples later today.
Dale

[egastelum@westcoastsignco.com]

Jay,

The sign you posted that you will hang with a crossbar. What substrate did you use for that sign, and my monitor is quarky but is that gold paint or gold leaf in the v-carving?

[jay]

The substrate is laminated 2 x 10 spruce stair stringers. This sign, which is bigger than the normal yard signs, I did not want it to warp so I cut the 2 x 10 into 3" wide strips and laminate them back together. These are very inexpensive yard signs that I sell through a local garden supply store with only their name on any of the advertising material. Because of the low selling price (I think the retailer sold it for $150.00), the letter finish is just the wood showing through the stain.

Cut sign through the pre-stained blank, re-stain the edges, let dry 2 days, then HVLP shot it with Exterior Diamond UV Protected Urathane front and back six coats. Total actual production time 45 minutes spread over 4 or 5 days.

Yes, the picture is deceiving, from the road passers-by don't know the letters are not painted either.

[stickman]

On the subject of sign painting:

What is a good spraying system?

I am using a brush to paint my current sign, I am not happy with the brush marks. I should have sprayed the blank.

What paint do you use with spraying?
a. Are you thinning the paint?

Anyone using an airless sprayer?

What system works the best for quick color changes?