Cutting 3D signs

[john_r]

I recently visited a shop that was cutting signs out of foam and wood, on a Techno Router. They were using ArtCAM Pro, not sure which version? Anyway they were cutting a 2X3 sign that had about 10 letters and a bunch of flowers, leafs and texture on it. It was just moving back and forth cutting in one direction, it seemed to take for ever, I asked him how long does a sign like that take, he said about 6 HOURS for relief carving! I was looking at purchasing ArtCAM Pro, but now I'm thinking you can't make much money if a 2X3 sign that takes a full work day to cut out? What am I missing? Is it easier to cut inlay pieces into the back ground and cut reliefs out seperately and glue them together to make a 3D look? I didn't want to ask him a lot of questions, I didn't tell him I had a SB. Any advice from the sign guys or 3D guys? Is ArtCAM worth the money? How about ArtCAM classes? 300.00 bucks a day, anyone find value in these?

Thanks,
John

[bob_reda]

John,
I just recently got artcam 8. It has a very steep learning curve, but I understand if that is the type of thing you want to do that this is the program to use. I bet if you asked them how much this sign was going to cost, it would probably knock your socks off. I don't know how thick the foam was but if it was signfoam about 2" thick, that runs about $400 a sheet.

Bob

[joewino]

Also, remember that you are not standing there watching the router work for six hours. Just like having an employee, you allow the ShopBot to work on its job while you are working on something else.

Cutting the pieces separately and then applying them to the background might save some time because of the painting process, but not very much. We do a lot of the layered signs just because of the convenience of not having to be so precise with painting color to color.

A 2' x 3' piece of HDU cost about $75 and that size sign would sell for about $900.

[harryball]

Speaking of costs, prices and so on, is there a pricing guide for CNC work, signs, carving etc... ? Sort of like "The Woodworkers Guide to Pricing Your Work?" While that book covers some of the details it focuses on conventional woodworking.

Now to share a story about signs and pricing... yesterday I volunteered to make Visitor signs for the Church. Three small 12 x 18 signs that say Visitors and has an arrow on it. I figured I'm cutting stuff out for educational experience anyway, may as well be something useful to someone, I'm running out of things to add signage to around the farm.

I get a call this morning... "wood raised letter signs are too expensive, they really wanted to stay with metal for the cost."

I say "these are free" followed by a pause...

"but the metal ones cost less, wood is really too expensive... could you price metal ones for us?"

"Nope, they'd have to be wood, maybe next time, bye"

The metal ones must come with cash taped to them! LOL, I draw the line at paying to give away signs.

Robert

[patricktoomey]

Signcraft magazine makes an excellent pricing guide...
https://www.signcraft.com/secure/cart/items.asp?cat=9

I agree with the posts above, I charge $100-$150 per square foot for relief carved 3D not including the design charge or any extras. It takes many hours to carve most of my 3D jobs but the profit is still great.

[thecustomsignshop]

We are about the same, slightly lower. Patrick, does this include the cost of materials?

[joe]

John,

I've been routing for several years and like you I haven't been too interested in 3D because of the dreaded long routing time.

I've changed my mind completely after trying it. First you don't need to do a complete sign with 3D. Only the images that justify this kind of detail.

Last week we made a sign for an academy which had a 30" Eagle. It took an hour and half. I did an area clearance for the body of the sign, leaving letters, border, and platform for the bird. The whole sign took a couple of days, due to painting and drying time. There was plenty of time for other work.

I would encourage you to consider using James Booth, www.carve3d.com (http://www.carve3d.com) to make your relief file. He will save it for you in SB code. That way you can down load it and away you go. It's fast and easy.I had the eagle completed in a couple of hours after receiving the email file.

Ok, I confess, I had to call Beckwith for a little encouragement. Everyone know I taught him everyting he knows about routing! Ha

I'll send a photo if you like.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[john_r]

Wow! I guess I had no idea how much these signs cost. I guess thats true, your not really doing anything except letting the machine cut. Joe I'd love to see your recent sign. What your saying is you inlay carved pieces into the background? Is that right?

Thanks,
John

[joe]

John,

Pehaps you could toggle down to "New Project" under the sign heading. I've posted a few examples on a step by step process from drawing to finished sign. These were done in real time. It was a day by day progress right up to installation.

Pricing. Most of us charge around $150. per square foot for this kind of work. Ground signs of this kind price between 4K & 8K. Depends somewhat on the amount of gilding.

Pricing by size has it's short comings. Signs that are small or very large don't come out right. For a example: A one square foot for $150. isn't good for business.

J
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[patricktoomey]

Jim, that usually covers the materials as well depending on what I'm doing. I typically don't do signs, my 3D work tends to be custom millwork for kitchens or themed environments (indoor). I generally do it on hardwood, Trupan or Corian although I've routed other stuff too like foam. I agree with Joe about the square foot thing only working for middle sized pieces, little pieces I charge differently by adding setup charges.

[joe]

For those fellows starting out, and who don't have the latest 3D software, there is plenty of creative room by doing plain old routing.

I not suggesting you shouldn't look forward to 3D images, but there plenty of great stuff to do with what you have now.


6283

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[joe]

Woops, the above sign was done with plain old Parts Wizard.

[john_r]

Very impressive stuff Joe. An hour and a half for a 30" eagle? How much detail did it have? I'm gonna have to learn better tool pathing. All of my stuff usually has tool path marks in it and takes forever to cut even at 3" per sec. On the Rumors sign, how many different files were used for cutting it out?

[joe]

John,

I look forward to posting a photo of the eagle. It isn't very detailed. Since it was to be installed at the exterior eve of a building, detail wouldn't be seen.

In the mean time I'm posting a the photo show one of my techniques to get deminsion. Again, if you will review the step by step process in the "New Project" post below, I think you will get the idea.


6284

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[john_r]

Joe, I looked at you prior post. Very nice work any chance your ever coming to Arizona...

[joe]

John,

Well I finally got a chance to take a photo of the Eagle which I promised some time back.

This file took a little over an hour. Gary B. set it up to be cut with a 1/4 bit on 2" HDU. We choose this size bit since the file had a minimum amount of detail. The outside limit was 30"

James Booth made the digital file from a sketch we emailed him. He only needed a general description of what I wanted. We received the file back in a SBP extension, so it was ready to run.

Once completed I took another half hour with a rifle and V chisel. By doing this you can easily increase the sharpness. 3D images often look too shot for me. Every time I see one, I want to get out my carving tools and make them right. It's now a phobia.


J
6285

[phil_o]

Wow!!

[jsfrost]

Thanks for the Photo, Joe

Wow is definately the right word. Is James Booth the copyrite owner, or someone else? I would be interested in purchasing the art file if the price was right.

http://www.vectric/VA3D/comp_1/free_models.htm has some new free models, including a different but nice looking eagle.

[joe]

Jim,

I'm guilty of assuming everyone knows who James Booth is. Well let me explain. I first met him, years ago, when he was working/designing for ArtCam. At that time he was very helpful getting me up to speed with their product. Now James is offering his services on his own. http://www.3dcarve.com/.

The above file was part of a sign for the Millwood Art Academy. I received a rough copy detailing their expectations. From there I refined the drawing. I then contacted James, and together we agreed it didn't need much detail since it was scheduled to be high on the face of the building.

I can't say enough about the quality and price of his service. He doesn't claim to be an artist but I have to tell you, there is plenty of artistic ability in interpertating these files. He's patient and easy to work with.

This venture opened new possibilities for my work. Wish I hadn't waited so long.

J.
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)