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jhicks
01-11-2007, 09:55 AM
We have our shop inside another Company that buids custom cabinets with 10 people. In working together with them, they have asked us to help out with their labor scheduling,and feedback on actual time vs estimated time, and to help achieve a better estimating/costing system to help make customer commitments, on their completion and installation dates.
Is anyone out there using a specific software or even a basic manual time clock system to track and measure these variables that they might recommend?

Brady Watson
01-11-2007, 10:23 AM
Jerry,
In every manufacturing environment that I have ever worked in, there was always somebody with a clip board and stop watch that stood by each station once a month to gauge cycle time. Granted, this was for a finite number of varied product going thru the line, but that seems to be the standard method for getting real data.

In a previous life I used to set up manufacturing execution systems that logged in operators to a station, via ID card. The operator would then scan in via barcode each product sleeve at the beginning of the line & enter any defects etc at the end. When the run was complete or it was lunch time, the operator would log out with the ID card barcode. All data was written to a database. The biggest feat was getting them to actually do it...which took a good solid year to get everyone on board.

For your setup, you could create a simple MS Access database where each operator would log in via name, ID # etc, enter the project number etc & then log out when complete. By taking that data, you could create a report & get the number of man hours needed to complete a given project. This only works if people actually use it. Again, the hard part is getting people to use it consistently...the database/system part is easy.

-B

jhicks
01-12-2007, 09:36 AM
Thanks Brady, Our experiences are similar in small vs industrial environments. I have seen some software packages advertised for cabinet shops that incorporate labor, material etc but haven't seen any demos yet.
I am not proficient in data base creation so spreadsheets are the method of choice but data collection and summation for analysis is a royal pain in the rear.
I was hoping someone may have such a software system, package or their own creation that might have been debugged vs reinventing the wheel.
It never hurts to ask but maybe its just the nature of the beast with small staff & modest budgets.

myxpykalix
01-12-2007, 11:27 AM
I'm just thinking outloud here but a couple things popped in my head. Didn't someone write a small program that gave you the time that the shopbot runs, maybe bill young, shopbot labs? I've never downloaded or used it but maybe you could modify that in someway to break down by the job or some other way?

Also don't some of these programs give you an estimated machining time? I wonder if there is any way to compile those statistics into a seperate file?

fleinbach
01-12-2007, 01:57 PM
Jack,

Yes, several programs will give you estimated machine time. And when cutting with the shopbot it automatically creates a log file of the machine runtime but I don't think this is what Jerry was looking for. If I understand him correctly, he is looking for the full picture, including the labor necessary to load parts and remove them from the machine when finished.

jhicks
01-13-2007, 10:43 AM
Thanks Frank & Jack, I guess I didnt explain myself too clearly. In fact we have everything we need as far as shop bot work goes. Its the other woodworking conducted here that is NOT shop bot related.
Conventional cabinet making stuff. When a Kitchen is estimated, lets say it was estimated to take 500 hours of labor for everything from cutting, sanding, trimming dry fit hinges & doors, finishing and reassembly.
When the job crosses the floor it goes through several hands with each major step being a hand off from one person or team to another.
In the end its finished in stain, paint, toned or whatever is called for.
Then its reassembled, leveled etc in significant carcases suitable for loading and installation.
What i was trying to find out is how do the cabninet makers out there track actual vs estimated time for labor to dial in actual costs and update estimating where necessary for future bids or shop productivity improvements?
All help is appreciated

richards
01-13-2007, 11:35 AM
Jerry, since there is no system in place right now, you might suggest a very simple time clock system. If you color coded some time clock cards for each job, then all that an employee would have to do is to grab a time card for the proper job, write his number or initials on the card, write a code for the type of work he was doing, punch in when he started that particular function and punch out when he finished. Each card would only have a single punch-in/punch-out time stamp. Each card would only have a single code/department. Each card would have time billed to one job. Each card would only have labor costs associated with one employee.

At the end of the day, you might have 100 cards to sort through, but it would be a simple matter to handle.

If the concept worked, you could expand on it with a computerized system with a database, Java GUI, and barcode readers so that a work order could be scanned into a department and then out of the department.

I wrote a work flow program years ago for a large photolab that had hundreds of customer and thousands of work orders in process at any particular time. The program tracked orders through the photo lab, automatically showed the status of any order, generated an invoice automatically, and showed the performance of each worker. Unfortunately, the program was written using Clipper5 and only ran on a Novell Ver. 4.1 platform.

The good news is that any computer science student in any major university could do the same thing on a Linux box using PostgreSQL as the data base and Netbeans (Java) as the programming language. The computer would cost well under $1,000. PostgreSQL and Java can be loaded free of charge. A simple but functional program patterned after the time clock, but with the ability to tally the numbers, could be written in a few hours. Endless enhancements would follow as you discovered new ways to track information - but it wouldn't necessarily be difficult or expensive.

GlenP
01-13-2007, 11:29 PM
Jerry, My idea for is similar to Mike's idea. I have a day sheet that I made on microsoft excel. It has the employee's name and date on the top and rows down the side for the job number and description on task completed (e.g. sanding, assembly, finishing etc.) The columns across the page are for the time started and time stopped. The employee can simply fill in the job, description and when he started and when he stopped. If he is working on the same job but a different task, they should record the time they stopped the first task and then enter the time they started new task. (e.g. if the were sanding the job from 8-8:45, then went to finish work from 8:45 - 10:00. This will allow you to see how long they are spending at each task within the project and decide if they are being productive or taking longer than expected. This is their daily time sheet that they get paid by, so they will fill it out to get their pay cheque. The payroll dept can simply keep track of the time for the job and tasks and give a report for future quotes and references. If you like I can upload the sheet for you to get a better idea.
This sheet is handy even for one man shops as it gives you an idea on how productive you are yourself and for future quotations.

ckurak
01-14-2007, 02:04 AM
Jerry,

I do the same thing that Glen P does: a spreadsheet with start and stop times for each task. I am a one man shop, so I don't fill out a daily time sheet, but I keep a time card for each project. At the end of each project I do a post mortem analysis, adding up the task times and total time spent and comparing it with my original estimate. I use this information to adjust future estimates as needed, or to determine where I can improve my processes.

Charles

myxpykalix
01-16-2007, 03:16 AM
I saw this link, didn't read the whole thing but it a lead...
http://www.brucerayne.com/papertrail.html

dingwall
01-16-2007, 01:33 PM
I've spent years going the stopwatch route. That's real good for measuring on-task times, but in my shop at least only represents a fraction of actual time.

The problem with punch clocks is getting people to remember to use them. And when they forget, fixing the mistakes.

I've heard of shops where the last 15 minutes of the day is spent filling out a sheet with the day's activities. I've done this myself using a spreadsheet with the day divided into 15 minute segments. If you have a Description column, then a time column for each job, all you have to do is type a "1" into each 15 minute time segment cell in the appropriate job column. As an example a 1/2 hr task would be two cells with a "1" in each, one hour task would be 4 cells.

Divide the total "1"s by 4 for the total hours.

charles_o
01-16-2007, 11:54 PM
Good data to base time estimation on is th key element here. Whether you stand around with a stop watch use a time clock that can track to a job/task (http://www.timeclockplus.com/products/software/prof/prof.aspx) or use historical experience you need good data to estimate future jobs. Once you have a handle on how long task should take then there are countless software options out there. Some good some useless, some cheep some very, very expensive.
I use MS project for job planning/tracking. It allows you to build schedules of task, assign resources, link dependent task, track cost...and on and on... There is like many things a learning curve, but anyone familiar with other MS products can learn the basics without spending too much time. One of the Community Colleges here has an online class for $89.
Good luck

webbhead
01-17-2007, 03:18 AM
I haven't worked with it, but Vakcer Project Tracker has been around since 2000 http://www.vakcer.com. The developer, Alex Vakulenko was key in my learning of Corel Draw automation, & he's written many slick plugins & tutorials for that app. I'd give his software a try anytime.

Anyway, VPT automatically tracks application/document time spent on the computer & allows you to track non-computer time via Custom Activity setup. Custom activities can be tracked via manual data entry or via VPT's activity timers. Someone will still need to click to start & stop these timers though. Multiple timers can be opened up at the same time, but only one can be active... so if you're multi-tasking you'll still need to come back to the computer & switch between timer windows.

I tried working with MS Project back in the Win95 days and it was a major pain to learn & setup. I was spending more time on it than managing my team. VPT looks pretty simple by comparison, but I didn't see where the scheduling component was.

OroTimesheet, WorkTime, and Timeless Time & Expense, are a few others that look decent if you want to go the software route. Check 'em at download.com

jhicks
01-17-2007, 10:45 AM
Thanks for all the feedback. here's one I'm looking at the demo on.
www.alliancemillsoft.com (http://www.alliancemillsoft.com)
It seems to have a lot of desireable attributes specific to cabinet manufacturing, including job standards, labor, and material estimating etc but I'll need to research further.Probably adaptable to other types of fabrication concerned with general material, labor, etc.
The quote I received was $4,000.00 for the base single seat plus $700.00 per additional user and a $500.00/ year maintainance, service, and upgrade subscription.
For those interested, the demo and on line info will fill you in on more details.
Still an open investigation so please keep posting any suggestions you have or find out about.
Thanks

charles_o
01-17-2007, 06:49 PM
Jerry
Looks interesting
Have you looked at the KCDW program. It would give you the estimates but also can render the cabinets, create cut list and shop drawings, create cnc code for the shopbot...
http://www.kcdw.com/cabinets.htm
Good luck

jhicks
01-18-2007, 11:18 AM
Thanks Charles, the cabinet software used here is cabinet vision and its great for whats needed here. It may even have a labor component I need to look at as well but its so complex, the guys here have spent months and a bunch of $ to just get it going and spitting out proper drawings and Bills of materials. Very nice though. It does a complete kitchen virtual tour video and allows one to set up libraries of everything to plug in and modify.
I think it was $20,000.00 or so plus training so Its not for everyone.
Guess I'll need to research the labor and estimating aspect for it and maybe my question is already answered.DUH!! Why didn't I think of that sooner?

charles_o
01-18-2007, 08:29 PM
Jerrry
I don't know how much estimating/costing functions are included in Cabinet Vision, but Planit does have a Business process management software that will link with Cabinet Vision.

http://www.planitsolutions.com/us/enterprise/intro.default.aspx

oddcoach
01-19-2007, 09:38 PM
TRADESOFT has a package geared for woodworkers http://www.tradesoftinc.com
i use microsoft project to do the estimating and scheduling. standard time is a timetracking program that integrates directly with project.http://www.stdtime.com

oddcoach
01-19-2007, 09:42 PM
TRADESOFT has a package geared for woodworkers http://www.tradesoftinc.com
i use microsoft project to do the estimating and scheduling. standard time is a timetracking program that integrates directly with project.http://www.stdtime.com
it has a palm and pocket pc version. it eliminates the clipboard so i actually use it during the day rather than trying to remember at the end of the day

oddcoach
01-19-2007, 09:43 PM
sorry about the double post i forgot how to edit a post