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View Full Version : Can SB do MDF doors?



logical@gmi.net
04-27-2003, 12:36 AM
I've seen a number of posts related to cabinet shops, but none that relate to doors only. I build furniture and have a pretty decent shop now. I have been knocking around the idea of getting cnc and pumping out cabinet doors. I have already got cabinet and home builders lined up! 90 percent of all doors are made from mdf anymore and I was curious if the shopbot is capable of making the square cornered rasied panel doors.

I am coming to the jamboree and will be asking to see this done. Thermwood shows a 4x8' sheet of mdf with several doors cut into it. Can SB software do this too?

gerald_d
04-27-2003, 03:38 AM
Oops! (posted in wrong thread)

elcruisr
04-27-2003, 08:41 AM
Wes,
I would say the answer is yes, but.....

The toolpath designing is no problem as is cutting the MDF. Just make sure you have a really good vacuum hold down system and an even better dust collection system. We cut MDF from time to time and it makes a fine dust that you really don't want to breath.

The only consideration would be the tool change part of the door proccess. Unless you add a rather pricey tool change option you will be doing a manual tool change for each sheet and that eats up time. You could possibly run all the cutouts and then run another program of the panel raising on each door.

We looked at making doors and since we have some big shops with big machines in our area already making them we found we couldn't compete. However we are doing well cutting furniture parts that don't require tool changes for the run.

See you at the Jamboree.

Eric

rgbrown@itexas.net
04-27-2003, 08:56 AM
A one word answer is YES. If you can find or have made the proper bit for your profile, a ShopBot can do the same profile as the Thermwood. In fact the parts you saw COULD have cut on a ShopBot and the Thermwood might have been a movie prop.

Someone more familiar with the present software could address the software part - Part Wizzard is the present software.

If you can draw it in CAD the FC, "File Convert" command will convert a 2D DXF file to make things similar to "MDF Cabinet doors"

garyb
04-27-2003, 02:19 PM
Wes,
As Eric and Ron said above "Yes You Can"
We have been running raised pannel on our shopbot for some time and it works well. We do however pre-cut all our panels/doors on a panel saw then do the raised panel on the bot. One bit change for the bead edge which takes less than 30 secs.

logical@gmi.net
04-27-2003, 02:33 PM
Thanks all. That's very encouraging. I don't have to have high volume to make me happy. If I can turn out a couple hundred doors a month, I will make money and grow my business. I plan on making more decorative pieces of furniture than I currently make as well.

I am pretty computer literate. I am a computer world dropout like many woodworkers today are. I do have concerns about the software, but I guess that I will get my answers (unless I forget what to ask) at the jamboree.

Thanks,
Wes

Ted Hall, ShopBot Tools
04-27-2003, 04:56 PM
An idle comment:

I keep believing that there must be some new creative approach to deal with the bit change and production efficiency issue noted here. It applies to many situations, not just MDF doors ...

At the moment, our automatic tool-changer is almost the same incremental price as one is for high-priced tools (we are all basically buying the same components). Which is to say, it is more expensive than the ShopBot itself.

On the affordable side, quick release collets, which might get at the problem, are too flimsy for real production use.

You could also have a 2-Z ShopBot, but this only gives you 2 cutters.

The situation would seem to leave a big 'door' open for some ingenuity ??? (this was a door thread, right ...)

bill.young
04-28-2003, 08:57 AM
Ted's raises a good point. I'm not a cabinetmaker but I'm sure that raised panel doors are the way they are because of the tools that they are made with. With the usual shop tools like a table saw, joiner, and shaper ( and handsaw and plane), it's easier to cut straight lines than curves so everything ends up with nice, neat 90 deg joinery and inside corners.

This is reversed with CNC...it's much easier to cut a curve than make a square inside corner. Has anyone thought about doing doors with curved or elliptical patterns routed into them (or some other pattern that uses the strengths of CNC), instead of trying to simulate the traditional raised panel door?

Just a thought,
Bill

garyb
04-28-2003, 09:23 AM
Yes Bill, our raised panel's are available with Arch Tops, Cathedral, Concave, Convex and anything else in between that helps us stand out from the rest.

Point of note from above post, that we pre-cut our panels/doors on the panel saw first. I failed to mention that radius or shaped panels are cut out on the Shopbot.

Rechecking the web site I don't see any info or mention of the auto tool changer, or am I missing something?

ron_cleaver
04-28-2003, 11:46 AM
I'm making cabinets for my garage and basement using MDF. I used a plunge panel bit to make the "raised panel" with rounded edges, by just using the CR command. I like the way it looks, both with 42" and 29.75" high doors.

raj
04-28-2003, 11:51 AM
Bill,
Your point is suberb. You get the edge with CNC when you start using its power to do cut outs of better desigs. Same piece of wood has a different market value depending on what cuts you make on it. In a different thread I mentioned the example of placing a rose in a recessed panel with ease without the need to go into CAD. Whether it is a garland of roses on the top of a recessed panel door or a leaf ornament in a recess panel of a fireplace, the challenge to put together a beautiful design quickly is really key to be competitive. My solution has ben to design my own spread sheet program which I call the probe file transformer. It has many powerful features which I hope will make it practical to do some really nice things quickly. Currently the design is progressing so that I can "scope" a scanned part : eg the ornament or the outer flat part or the inner flat parts.You can operate on part to create a new shop bot file. Some of the operations are as follows : Trim the part to certain size in XYZ, place it at a certain location in XYZ, Resize XYZ, mirror in X axis or Y etc. What I have as the main vehicle of adding features is the probed data in a Lisp list which I can translate to an appropriate file in minutes and throw some kind of simple GUI button on my spreadsheet pane. Unfortunately at the moment the whole thing runs in a Lisp peculiar environment, but I think it would be a great enhancement. For folks wanting to do five axis work, it would be a simpler approach than CAD to do scan, transform and cut : very fast and covers many appliations where CAD simply kills you. My two cents worth !

bruce_clark
04-28-2003, 08:20 PM
Mr. Dayal,

What you are descibing is something called parametric programming. Basically, it is a family of parts that the basic design stayes the same but the size changes. An example is the door and cabinet panels.

Do a search on the internet for "parametric programming" and that should turn up some CAD/CAM programs that support what you are trying to do. If nothing else, this will at least give you an idea of what is out there and how they approach the data entry.

Hope this helps,

Bruce

raj
04-28-2003, 09:56 PM
Hi Bruce,
I don't know if any CAD programs will allow interface to a shop Bot probed file. Then whether they would allow picking sections of the scan, where you can operate on, flat outer part, flat inner part or the ornament itself or all of it, that is another thing. Certainly I would love to get my hands on something that could resolve the issue of taking a ornamental scan and be able to integrate it easily into products. You need a tight fit with shop bot. After all in end it is a shop bot cut file you need and if there are software tools out there they are likely not going to generate the appropriate move commands for shop bot. Transforming a probed file is intimately connected to Shop bot commands and I don't know what tool will allow such a hook up to take place. If you know of one I'd greatly appreciate your feedback.
Raj

Keith Meicho
04-29-2003, 12:27 AM
Wes,
Carefull planning is all that's needed to master door making, or any other project on the shopbot. I use a prt96 with two z heads. If you home the machine before starting, and use the same offset (0,0) from that point for each operation, you will be able to run the program from exactly the same spot every time. Cut door blanks one day, profile the next. The one important step is to add indexing points in the program. For example, I would add something like 1/2" dowels to the program just outside the edge of the doors (to be trimmed off later when finished) and matching holes for the dowels to go into in your table or fixture board that never change for those special door programs. See you at the Jamboree. Keith

gerald_d
04-29-2003, 01:39 AM
Creative approach to bit changing?

Most of us use the SB's with low-cost routers. Why not change the bit and the router? If the router hung outboard of the gantry, then it can be moved/jogged to a rack at the end of the table where 5 routers with bits are hanging. As long as the interface "cradles" are indentical, they could actually be carrying big/slow routers, small/fast routers, drill machines, whatever.

Alternatively, a big "revolver" head on the gantry carrying say 4 routers/bits and revolving them into position one at a time.

These "multimotor" approaches can be considered because they are basically low-cost motors. With Colombo's you want to change bits, but do WE have to?

mcm444@bellsouth.net
05-15-2003, 10:18 PM
I have just begun making imitation panel doors and they look GOOD! It takes 3 bit changes but if you are proficient it is hardly noticable. I have a 5 x 12 table so i can cut from 12 to 30 doors at once. Also, MDF machines very well so you can cut it relatively fast and it leaves very square cuts. The only dificult part is the logistics of your cuts based on the bit combinations you use.

csbrads@comcast.net
01-25-2004, 04:10 PM
Can someone tell me where you are buying the plunge cutting raised panel bits for making the mdf doors?

Thanks

barrowj
01-25-2004, 05:28 PM
I buy most of my bits from www.mlcswoodworking.com (http://www.mlcswoodworking.com) . I mostly cut mdf sheets for the shelves that we sell which can be seen at www.jlkenterprises.com (http://www.jlkenterprises.com) .

Joe

johntwo
01-26-2004, 09:21 AM
Hey Joe, wouldn't the layer show in the plywood or is their a product you use?

barrowj
01-26-2004, 02:35 PM
John,

Mdf doesn't have layers so it is great for raised panel doors done with the shopbot. Also, the tops on all my painted ledges are 3/4" mdf and i set a sheet 49"x97" on the shopbot and have a cut file cut the ledge, then change bits and cut the top plate slot, then change one more time to cut each shelf out of the board. I can get 11-4' tops and 11-3' tops out of one sheet.

peter.j.meacham@lmco.com
01-26-2004, 03:28 PM
Joe, do you use tabs or some other method to keep the parts in place during the three different operations?

barrowj
01-26-2004, 03:36 PM
No, not on this operation since the last cut is the only cut that goes all the way through. When i use a new or real sharp bit, i get a clean cut. Also, the sequence is important. I would have to show you the cutting sequence so you would understand.

ckurak
01-26-2004, 06:20 PM
Joe,

What are you using for hold-down with your sheet stock? Vacuum table? Screws?

barrowj
01-26-2004, 07:30 PM
I am using several clamps on 3 sides.

weslambe
02-22-2004, 08:30 AM
I started this thread about a year ago and since then have done many houses full of mdf cabinet doors. I have bought my bits from Home Depot for use on my bot.

HDs stuff is almost always the kind with the guide bearing on them, but it simply unscrew the bearing and grind off the shaft that held the bearing on. Works great but be mindful that if you deviate much, you will have a dangerous bit.

I have cut several hundred doors this way. Using Excel I have made square, arched, roman arched, and rounded corner cabinet doors. My customers love them.

One thing about MDF is it's tendency to fuzz though. It doesn't seem to matter how sharp your bit is or which direction your cut is going either. The cure for this is to mix some Tightbond II glue with about 50% water and spray it on the cuts. Let it dry over then sand it down to a smooth, glassy surface.

Tightbond II is water-resistant after it dries, so it is a great foundation for painting.

ps, got mad at my ISP in Sep of last year and cancelled service. I just got back online after all these months in Jan.

I've missed tons I'm sure. I also had twin boys in December. Now I have 2 girls and 2 boys!

Wes
pps. Vote anti-nafta

gerald_d
02-22-2004, 11:43 AM
Thanks for coming back Wes, and sharing those tips. Congrats on the kids too!

stickman
02-22-2004, 07:30 PM
Wes,

I just got done machining some MDF for a customers shelf that she wanted made. My dust collector didn't do as well as I was hoping. But I got a great cabinet out of the deal. I'm interested in your door and you bits. Can you send me a few pictures of the doors you've done, as well as the bits. I'm quite interested in this techinique of grinding off the bearing stud.

I'll post pictures here in a little while... need to make sure they can be posted.

stickman
02-22-2004, 07:44 PM
Here are the pictures of my shelf. I used the shopbot to predrill assemble holes, 1/4" depth stop dado's at each shelf. It took me 1 1/4 sheets. I'm going to fill the screw holes with auto body filler, then sand, customer is painting.


8298

stickman
02-22-2004, 07:47 PM
I cut the top and the base moulding with my router table.

This pictures shows a little edge damage, but I'll fix that with body filler as well...


8299

stickman
02-22-2004, 07:49 PM
8300

weslambe
02-22-2004, 10:08 PM
I use bondo quite often with my doors if I am the one priming them. It doesn't show at all afterwards that way. I would never present a mdf door with pink bondo showing to a customer though.

Nice work. I am going to buy a dedicated moulding machine within the next month or so and am excited to start making more money that way.

As for the mdf doors, I have found that I have to do some finishing work afterwards now more than I had to in the past. Probably because I haven't tuned my machine in quite some time. I guess that it's time to get out the squares and levels again.

I will post some pictures soon.

prosigns
02-23-2004, 11:22 PM
8301
All woodwork in this picture was done (except the floor??) on a cnc machine. Cabinet carcass, raised panel doors, w/ arched top, Light swich openings, flutes, mantle, etc.
This is oak, however I have cabinets in the shop that are MDF also done on CNC machine.

stickman
02-24-2004, 10:56 AM
Prosigns...

Thatis awesome: I love the dentil moulding arches. Are the doors solid with a routed in raised panel or rail and stile doors?

That's a neat project!

Jay - StickMan WoodWorking

prosigns
02-24-2004, 12:57 PM
To make the dentil mouding arches I took a digital picture of the vent above the fireplace doors and then digitzed the design. The cabinets are firewood boxes one on either side of the fireplace. The dentil design in the arch above the doors and on the kick board under the doors is routered way through as a vent for the firewood. I routered a design in the raised panels then cut out the panels styles & rails on the shopbot. Then finished them the standard way with style / rail / raised panel router bit set. I have all kinds of CNC woodworking thoughout the house. All on file on the computer.

prosigns
02-24-2004, 01:19 PM
8302
This is the fireplace clock. I made a plywood plug on CNC machine to brick around. Then used the plug file to make this Oak/Walnut firplace clock, with the same fireplace vent design to tie it to the rest of the woodwork.

kivimagi
02-24-2004, 09:10 PM
Can you comment on digitizing the dentil molding? I'm not sure I'm following how the picture became a tool path.

Regards,

prosigns
02-24-2004, 09:26 PM
I used my sign making software Flexisign Pro that has that option.

This is what the Flexisign file looked like before it was sent to the CNC machine.
8303

prosigns
02-24-2004, 09:37 PM
I call it digitizing. Don't know if that is technically what I'm doing, or maybe I am?? It's not an external digitaizing pen on a pad connected to the computer. I have on screen digitizing tools that I click on and control with the mouse. I scan in the image and then trace it using these tools. Occasionally, if the scanned image is sharp enouigh I can just auto trace it & go.

mrdovey
02-24-2004, 10:01 PM
Oops! Wouldn't upload image - can't cancel msg. )-:

mrdovey
02-24-2004, 10:07 PM
You guys are bad influence on me. The MDF cabinet doors look so intriguing that I think I'm going to have to try some of this myself.

These are based on illustrations for OTS router templates:


8304
8305
8306

but I think it might be much more fun to "play" with Celtic knots, trees, flowers, etc for which the competition /can't/ buy templates (-:

Morris

prosigns
02-24-2004, 10:12 PM
Yup. The Shopbot makes me look like I know what I'm doing. I wouldn't have much luck if I had to build this stuff the old fashioned way.

edcoleman
02-25-2004, 07:43 AM
Morris:

I've found a helpful design aid for celtic knotwork. Check out the following site:

http://www.abbott.demon.co.uk/knots.html

best of all the price is right: a free download. I haven't found a way to use the output of this program directly with the shopbot, but it is useful for designing the shape of the knots.

edcoleman
02-25-2004, 03:32 PM
Another interesting knot site is:

http://www.clanbadge.com/knots.htm

you can actually build the knotwork by typing with this "font". There is a large library of knots from the author and other users.

mrdovey
02-26-2004, 02:12 AM
Ed...

Very interesting. I've downloaded Steve Abbott's software and saved Christian Mercat's URL. I'm probably going to spend too much time going over this stuff. (-:

Here's a middle eastern pattern and cut path that'll be my first go at this kind of thing. If I like the result, I may recut in a dark hardwood and inlay with abolone or mother of pearl:


8307

Many thanks for the URLs!

Morris

tcheney@cox-internet.com
05-12-2004, 02:03 PM
Can any tell me what software you are using to make the cut files for MDF doors? Changing door sizes would be time consuming if it wasn't fairly automatic. Especially with archs such as shown above. Some one mentioned a Excel program. Any info on that?
Thanks,
Terry

Bill Imschweiler (Unregistered Guest)
05-12-2004, 02:48 PM
Terry

Check the post made by Wes Mason dated May 10, 2004

terry
05-13-2004, 11:13 AM
Bill I.
Thanks for the heads up on Wes's new program. I talked to him on the phone and purchased it. It still has a little manual work but the main issues with the programing to cut MDF doors are made simple with this program. As he continues with the program he intends to add more features. I'm going through that with e-cabinets (like a lot of you) and am glad I got on board when I did. It's made me a lot of money by helping me become more efficient. What I couldn't believe is the price. I won't blow his thunder here but I fully expected two to three times the money for what it does. What he says about the guy who's beta testing it for him is true. I garentee I will pay for this program my first set of doors and for all the tooling too. I make 5 peice doors now and made my own set-up for MDF doors with hand routers and templates and even by hand it's much easier and faster money than five piece doors. What I can't believe is that I came in 2 days after he informed us about it and still am one of the first 25!
Thanks for the help Wes.

Terry

weslambe
05-13-2004, 12:40 PM
Thanks for the kind words. I make money using the software and I'm sure you will too.

It does make a pretty nice door.

Wes

john_richards
06-07-2004, 08:43 AM
I have been using Whiteside MDF bits for creating panel effect, which worked well, but I would like to make similar cuts in hard wood. Anyone know where I could find similar bits for hard wood?

olecrafty
06-07-2004, 04:11 PM
have you tried using the same bit at a reduced feed rate?

Kaiwa
olecrafty@charter.net (mailto:olecrafty@charter.net)

john_richards
06-08-2004, 09:51 AM
I did not try that but i were able to get about 15 -20 doors cut with it before it went dull.