New Purchase - How much should I budget for startup items?

[jlawren6]

Hi. I've been following the Shopbot for a VERY long time and am finally in a position where I have the time, space, and money to consider actually buying one. The latest "New to Shopbot" thread and the upcoming price increase have spurred me along a little bit and I'm hoping to place an order for a Alpha96 (with PC router) this week. At this point, I'm mainly looking at buying one as a hobby so that I can learn CNC and do some things in my woodworking hobby (general stuff like cabinets, bookcases, basic signs, etc.) that I can't do now. Down the road, I hope to generate some moderate side income from it and then see where things go from there. If I can make enough using it to pay off the machine cost in a few years, I will be happy.

Before I pull the trigger, however, I'd like to get a better feel for how much I should budget for the things besides the Bot that I will need to get started and learn the basics. Things like the table and the PC I already have accounted for. What I'm not sure of is how much I should budget for things like bits, trial material (wood), clamps, dust collection, special setup tools (aligning, leveling the table), or anything else that I need to get up and running. I'm just trying to avoid any big surprises or delays.

Could anyone offer any suggestions on the "must haves" and "sure would be nice to haves" for someone just starting out and an idea what they might cost? Thanks for you help.

[richards]

Must Haves:
Hold down - clamps, vacuum, etc. I use a Fein vacuum with vacuum masks (use the 4-zone Shopbot file to machine a vacuum table surface). Clamps and/or screws can be used, but they are slower in operation than a vacuum and don't necessarily hold down a warped sheet of material. Cost for vacuum and piping is about $500 - $600. If you have the budget, try to get the 15hp unit from Shopbot.

Bits: Depends on the type of work that you do. I mostly use 3/8-inch downcut spiral bits ($40-$65 each), 1/4-inch downcut spiral bits (about $20 each), and 90-degree V-bits (about $30 each).

Dust Collection:
I use a 2-hp Jet with a cyclone type adapter (total cost with hose about $400). It works, but an Oneida Cyclone is high on my wish list. The Jet picks up most of the sawdust at the router head, depending on the cut and the cutter, but a lot of fine dust is always floating in the air, especially when cutting MDF.

Leveling:
I used a laser level ($20 on close-out from Home Depot). The trick to using that particular laser level was to measure from the edge of the laser beam.

Material:
I bought several sheets of each type material that I planned on cutting, both for testing the Shopbot and testing my designs. Typically, I wasted one sheet doing speed tests and cutter tests. Depending on the type of tests that you run, you may be able to dial in your speeds after only cutting a few lines.

Z-Zeroing plate:
Buy or build a z-axis zeroing plate. I bought one from Shopbot and built a three-axis plate to facilitate resetting all zero points.

Patience:
A real must-have. At first, I expected too much from the Porter-Cable router (as far as feed speeds were concerned). Retracing my steps and following a systematic approach to finding proper feed speeds, rpm and depth of cut required a lot of patience, but it gave the desired results.

Nice to have:
a Rousseau or Gast vacuum to hold small parts. I have several (about $250 each for the Rousseau and about $700 - $1000 for the 3/4-hp gast - including the necessary filter, gage, shutoff ball-valve and various fittings). Whenever I cut material that is less than 24x48, I usually hook up the small vacuum. It holds small parts better than the Fein vacuum that I use for full sheets.

Mike

[paco]

Mike have included much of what "tools" you will needed to get start though I have invest in cheaper item without affecting the fun and usage of this GREAT CNC tool... clamps is OK to get started, bits; you may consider allowing a good amount to get a good assortment (lenght, diameter, shapes, etc... thoses are what you will enjoy to explore the cutting capacity and possibility out of your new CNC tool), I use, less then often (often working in scrap, lumber, etc...), a ShopVac for dust collection with quite good success, I have used a 4' standard level for installing the machine, don't forget the support/spoilboard!, and allow some money for improvments like zero-plate, "prox. switches", wires and such...
Part Wizard is a GREAT start but you will soon feel it's limit if you plan on using ALL the cutting strategies... plan some $$$ for CAD/CAM... test it right from this moment if you hae'nt yet; so you'll make up your mind...

Good luck and keep looking the forum!

[rookie432]

Jon,

just my opinion, but I know the expense of the bot is a risk even as a hobby. You will get out of it what you put in though so if you want the machine to pay for itself it absolutely will.

I bought mine to use on evening and weekends because I work full time. At that rate I was 3-6 months before I felt fluent enough to produce a sellable product with the machine. This included assembly and learning the software.(keep in mind that I started with Vector software) I believe that Partwizard will cut that learning and fab time way down. Partwizard is much easier to use for a beginner.

That being said I think you should budget for bits,bits,bits.

Based upon your experience with wood and routers you will burn through bits quickly wile learning.
Here's my advice.
Go to pricecutter.com and buy practice bits or ebay. I have purchased a lot of bits from e-bay adn had varied success but for learning they are great. At first I used a lot of 1/4" straight bits. When you are ready for the good stuff research what you like. I have seen a lot of endorsements for many brands. It all depends on your own trial and error I think.
Onsrud is a good place to start.
1/4" straight bits
1/2" straignt bits
1/4" spiral upcuts
60deg and 90deg vee bits
a couple of sizes of corebox or cove bits
maybe a veining bit
these should get you started at between $100-$200

The bulk of your budget will be spent on material to cut. That is totally controlled by you. What your cutting /making etc.

I think personally the best investment I made after the bot was a fein shopvac. $275 and I have used it for homemade vac tables, dust collectors, and general clean up. I have to say it has been indespensable.

I'm sure that you will have a lot of good suggestions from other botters, but I kind of started on a shoestring and this worked for me. My machine payed for itself in 2 years using it part time and this year I will probably clear $10,000 without breaking too much of a sweat using it evenings and weekends.


hope this helps

[billp]

Jon,
Good thinking on your part. The "extras" you speak about will largely depend on the kind of work you eventually decide to pursue. I'm sure you will get a varied response to this one, and as usual most of it will be based on the personal experiences and needs of those of us who went through the same learning curve you are now entering.
I am a large fan of starting out with styrofoam. It's cheap, safe, and gives an accurate representation of your files. When you are done you can either line a dumpster with it, or hang it on the wall for sound dampening.
Two tools I have found indispensible are; a small (3") "engineers square" which I use for aligning
the placement of my bit in certain applications. The parallax effect of looking down/through the Y carraige sometimes makes it tough to really SEE where the tip of your bit will fall, but with the square I know exactly where the "0,0'point is.
Another great device is a simple "circular bubble level"which I use to check the actual orientation of my router, AND material on the table. If you are not using a vacuum hold down it is easy to tighten one or two clamps a little tighter than others, and then when you do your cut you find a portion of your sign/panel, etc. is deeper than the other side. A simple check with the bubble level obviates that problem.
Clamps? get a bunch of them. I like the 6-12"size, but have used larger in some cases. You'll also become very adept at making your own hold down gadgets, and my screw gun and drywall screws are always handy for the unusual shape or added security.
Bits are a combination of personal preference, as well as materials used. There are MANY threads on this Forum regarding our opinions on specific bits, and you should use them only as a starting point while you develop your personal inventory.
I think your dust collector shuld be as large as you can fit and afford, as the old saying is still true that either "you buy a dust collector, or you ARE the dust collector"...One horse power units would be the smallest I would consider, and my 1.5 HP unit is very effective with almost every material I now cut. You can spend anywhere from $175-? depending on just how much collection you want to use...
Of course having said all of the above I also think you should try to get out and see other people's machines and setups. One of the best things about this process is that you get to see "real world" applications rather than theoretical ones. For some people a $5,000 vacuum system is a must, while others have invented some incredibly ingenious techniques to keep their work within the limits of the table.
The Shopbot community is a very diverse group of people who are by nature problem solvers, and the average personality is a blend of McGyver, Rube Goldberg, and Leonardo Divinci. The line between art and engineering gets very blurred quickly, and
while some applications might not win any prizes for style points, the bottom line is "if it works, it's good..".
Ask questions, use this Forum, and get out to visit a Camp or other 'Botters when your time allows.....

[sagreen83]

Jon,

When I bought my system 4 months ago, I sprung for 2 of the bit set packages from shopbot. They were $175 per set. You get most of what you need to start with from these sets.

My practice material was MDF. I did most of my initial cuts using MDF before I moved up to production material. MDF is pretty cheap, and you can do alot of practicing on a 4'x8' sheet.

One thing that I dont see mentioned above is Proximity Sensors. I would recomend getting a pair of these. You can find them in the shopbot accessories page of the web site. You will find alot of different opinions on the forum about these prox sensors, but in my mind they are invaluable for setting your home position (x0 and y0).

As far as the table goes, you can save a bit of money there. I wouldnt recomend going the Wooden table route for an Alpha, but you can take the steel table designs to a local welding shop to build a table for you. I payed $700 to have a local fabricator build mine, and have heard of other people that have gotten it done for less.

Scott...

[jsfrost]

I'll agree and disagree with Scott on the need for a steel table.
I buy all the arguements supporting "steel is better." Still, I think the right choice depends on a cost/benefit analisis for the projects you anticipate.
Once I get the toolpath right, my wood table, Alpha, and homemade hold downs does everything I ask quite well, though slower than the production shops. I expect my tool will not do many large sheets; as I get older they get heavier. And I'm not pushing for speed. Both may change, but If I had priced in the Steel table at the start, I could not have achieved spousal approval on the purchase. Vacume hold downs and steel tables will come from eventual profit, or possibly when I upgrade to a new Beta (with shop cleaning attachment.)
This is a beginner's opinion, subject to change as I get smarter.

[gerald_d]

We started without bits. The first part of our learning curve was with a spring-loaded pencil scribing lines.

Since you aren't under pressure to get immediate paying production from the machine, I reckon that you could keep yourself entertained for a few weeks without spending any extra money, except on bits.

[jlawren6]

Thank you all the excellent reponses so far. There is a lot of good information there and a number of different approaches. That's the great thing about this forum.

So, from what I gathered so far....

Bits - I'll alot at least $200 as a start and stick to the cheaper ones until I get a feel for what I really want to cut.
Scott G. - Do you think the set you bought from Shopbot represented a good value for the money or would I be better off buying them elsewhere?

Clamps/Holdown - I'm going to see if I can swing the Fein vacuum along with some additions to my clamp collection. I've been eyeing that for a while anyway and the holdown flexibility along with the other shop uses make it seem like money well spent.

Dust Collection - I started my woodworking hobby with a Shopsmith many years ago. Since then I've moved to dedicated stationary tools. I still have the dust collector that came with it, however, so I will start with that for now. I ultimately want to go with an Oneida and my shop and new tool layout was built with that in mind. However, I'll have to start paying back some of Bot purchase before I can swing that.

Material - This looks like the biggest expense I should plan for. Starting with foam seems like a smart choice. When I'm comfortable with that, I'll move to cutting plywood for some shop cabinets that I need to organize things. That should be a good learning project.

Table/Accessories - I was fortunate enough to come acrosss a quantity of 3.5" x 3.5" heavy wall aluminum extrusion for the table. This was previously used as bases for production machines where I work and was being scrapped. It is extremely rigid (and heavy) once assembled and I think it will work well. I also got a number of industrial prox switches from those same scrapped machines that should work.

I was guessing that an additional $1000 to $1500 above the machine cost would be a safe estimate. It looks like that might not be too far off.

Thanks again for the replies, but keep the suggestions coming. Never can learn too much...

[jlawren6]

Gerald,

Excellent idea. You posted that while I was typing my other reply. That would be a good place to start also. Thanks.

[sagreen83]

Jon,

For me the bits have been a good value. In this set, the bits that I have used most are the 1/4" spiral end mills. If you were to purchase a bare minimum of bits from this set, I would say get the following...

1/4" Spiral Upcut Endmills. Pretty cheap bit for what you get from it. At some point you probably want to step up to 3/8" or 1/2" end mills.

Spoil Board Planer. Comes in the starter set. I would guess that this is probably the most expensive bit in the set, but you will need it to level your spoilboard. You could accomplish this with a smaller bit as well. But you need something to level the spoilboard.

60 degree v-bit. If for nothing else but to experiment with v-carving fonts into signs, you want one of these. Fun to do, and the first thing I did with my bot.

Scott...

[beacon14]

I wouldn't be without my dial calipers, nothing fancy, $25 at Home Depot, but invaluable for checking dado depths and widths, bit diameter, workpiece thickness, etc. Once you are working to ShopBot tolerances, the tape measure just doesn't do it anymore.

[artisan]

All of the above suggestions are excellent and address the mechanical side of things thoroughly. The thing that is most often overlooked and what you will discover all too quickly however, is that the Bot is only half of the equation. Upgrading and learning new software will be a surprising investment of time and money as the Bot will never do more than you are able to tell it to do. Add Rhino, a better toolpathing option such as Visualmill Basic (or similar) and other design software such as Fonts, Templates and Vectorized Clipart as a place to start. Mastering the Shopbot requires a balance of Hardware AND Software skills. Welcome to the community and Happy Learning Curve.....Best of Luck....D

[andrewm]

Make dust collection a high priority and not just one of the items on the list. You want a good dust collector and air filtration unit. A Shopbot, even with the dusk collector can generate a heck of a lot of dust. In a low humidity enviroment is can also make a lot of static electricity so your dust collection ducts need to be grounded.

A good dust collector and its ducting can take up a good amount of space and you want to plan this out before you begin building your Shopbot. Once the Shopbot is built in place its not easy to move so you want this thought out well ahead of time.

[mikejohn]

Not quite on the subject of the thread, but an allied question.
How much time did you spend between 'practising' and going into full production?
...Mike

[richards]

I did it the simple way. Since there were orders waiting, I picked the one that was easiest, made a few tests and started production. As soon as that order was finished, I did the same on the next most difficult and so on until the backlog was cleared.

So, to answer your question. Some production started on the third day that I had the machine, other jobs/designs are still waiting to be done four months after having received the machine.

It's kind of like learning to play the trumpet. Within a few minutes, and a little coaching, you can make noise, but to make music takes much longer.

Everyday I learn new things and better ways to do old things; a process that I hope never ends.

Mike