Anyone have info on the new shopbot due in early feb?

[dray]

Anyone have info on the new shopbot due in early feb?
Is it worth waiting for? What about comparative costs?
thx

[lto]

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It’s gonna be Great !!!

[harryball]

NEW... but I just got this one! Will mine self destruct as soon as the new one comes out? It's probably self loading for plywood and has built in bat house cutting routines... no, I bet it just prints money.

My luck, LOL :-)

On the other hand... used bots may become more plentiful and that benchtop I want will become a reality!

I always advised everyone in regard to computers to buy what they needed when they needed it because the newer better model would always be out tomorrow no matter how long you waited.

Robert

[richards]

Just out from secret sources on the East Coast ... the new Shopbot will have servo motors, tool changer, spindle, 15hp vacuum hold-down, one year's supply of cutters, free training, any software of your choice, and cost $1,995, with steel table and shipping included ... because they are innovative ... and will make up the deficit on volume ... more news to follow ...

[mdebruce]

Steel Table?? Darn why haven't they gone to 304 Stainless and free set-up? For that money they should!!

[richards]

Further information just arrived ... the new Shopbot is a joint effort with a secret company located somewhere in South Africa ... the initial model is being tested at an unknown location in New Jersey ...

[wcsg]

I thought it was made up of some special moon rock?

[patricktoomey]

I got the inside track, it's actually made of unobtainium. It also uses a forced quantum singularity as a power source for the plasma pumped particle accelerator cutter (replaces antiquated spindles) Don't tell anyone else though, it's a secret.

[richards]

Just in ... Ken Susnjara at Thermwood was overheard saying, "What in the world are those guys at Shopbot up to. Maybe it's time to put out the 'For Sale' sign at company headquarters." ... The un-named supplier in South Africa, whose initials are 'GD' was completely closed mouthed about the pending machine, whose design was reported to be his brainchild. However, other participants, whose initials can't be released at this point, had nothing but glowing reports of the possibilities promised by the new design. One of whom was overheard asking, "Is it possible that anything good could come from that part of the world?" ... more to follow. (Remember loose lips sink ships ... but enquiring minds want to know ...)

[richards]

Discouraging news just in ... Sears announced its new CNC router will soon be available for $3,995. They said that even though the price was 2X higher than the anticipated Shopbot, they knew that they owned the market and they were sure that potential customers would equate quality with Sears. Sears had no comment when asked about the countless recalls they had issued for defective products foisted on the American public during the last twenty years ... Reporters are enroute to South Africa to interview 'GD' for his response ... Company representatives and beta testers gave reporters a terse "No Comment" in response to inquiries about the new competition from Sears ... It seems that the announcement from Shopbot may have fizzled, but if further developements occur, you'll read it here ... first ...

[harryball]

More bad news... several execs left over from the dotcom bust have decided they can do better in the CNC industry. They have created a new company called CheapNumericCutter.com and have announced a completely new tactic to take on ShopBot. All of their machines are free. You just have to sign up and use their email service, bit supply service, sharpening service and buy all your supplies from them. They have billions in $$ invested and expect to burn through it in just a few months. All employees will receive a base salary of $500 a month but will have a generous weekly options grant to make up the short fall.

They idea is to sell advertising to support the service. Since CNC shops produce work for many individuals and businesses the idea is to subtly embed advertising in all the work pieces they complete. Some concern has been expressed about conflicts such as a McDonalds ad appearing on a sign for a Mom&Pop burger joint. Exces responded that they didn't feel there was a conflict in such a case since it is obvious McDonalds will crush the small Mom&Pop shop anyway.

It is reported that a major toilet paper manufacturer is watching this "free with advertising" model closely. They have not, however, been able to sign up any potential advertisers. One potential advertiser that turned down the idea stated that they "were just not willing to put up with the carp at the moment"

[trakwebster]

You know, I have actually been receiving a number of emails from what must be this same South African source. As I recall, the fellow is a lawyer, actually a 'barrister', handling the estate of the late Ungawa Umbutto, who had a secret bank balance of $37,500,298.47, which was from secret government kickbacks on CNC contracting jobs, and as I recall he was needing a trustworthy contact in the United States who could cash the various checks for him, in return for which the US contact would receive 25% of the total, which was, as I recall, $67,503,289.72. (I realize that this is larger than the original amount, but it takes into account inflation at the very high interest rates in South Africa. It's probably more than that since I began this sentence, actually.)

I'm not sure, but I think a barrister is a kind of English attorney who maintains an office in a bar.

Anyway, I had to turn the deal down, as I wasn't sure I was ready to handle that kind of cash. I just have a small account with no service charge, and I didn't want to run up a lot of bank charges. I told him to contact some of the folks on this forum.

Perhaps some of you have received his emails regarding this matter.

Perhaps this explains it.

[richards]

Arthur,

I've taken the barrister at his word - and I'm a wealthy man because of it. Sometimes it pays to just trust.

[richards]

Recently overheard in a Sears boardmeeting ... "We'll have to withdraw our CNC offering until we find another color. It seems that Sear's blue is already being used by a company in South Africa named Mechmate that has cornered the CNC market using that exact shade of blue." ... other reporters have stated that a great sigh of relief was heard at Shopbot headquarters ... that's all for tonight ...

[dray]

WTF A "holes" lol I was buying an alpha and the guys in shopbot office said to wait til late jan or early feb for a new model..

Soooo I guess none of you guys know anything about it so thx for the info lol

[patricktoomey]

back to reality, is this actually true? I hadn't heard anything about a newer model. At the last FL camp Ted was showing some video on the insulated panel cutting machine but that was a specialty unit that would be just for that purpose I think. The only thing I've heard lately was the 4G controller, does this have something to do with that or is it really a new machine?

[richards]

Come on guys, relax. Ted promised us that he would keep the Shopbot community current on developments at Shopbot via his blog. Did anyone see any mention of a new model on his blog? He's a man of his word, so if and when they start thinking about a new model, you'll see it on his blog long before rummors start circulating.

[jhicks]

I am not sure if Mike Richards comment was in jest or not but I just received an ad for the new SEARS CNC desk top machine.
When I get back to the office Monday I will get to read it again but I think the price was under $2,500.00
No doubt another hobbiest tool but as predicted earlier the cost of technology continues to decline to new lows. Making CNC technology more available so get ready for more competition from small garage shops with less capability but less overhead as well.
I imagine the "flea market" sign shops will be more active than ever.

[Brian Moran]

I believe the Sear's machine is the CarveWright benchtop specialty router that has been discussed on this forum before.

With regard to pre-announcing new models I think it is unfair to expect any CNC router manufacturer (or any other business for that matter) to pre-announce new models. Many small and not so small firms have gone bust when expectations of 'a new improved' model being just round the corner led to existing sales and hence cash flow drying up.

Also in a competitive environment, pre-announcing details of new models can give your competitors an advantage they are unlikely to be kind enough to afford to you when they plan new products.

Obviously there is a balance to be struck between keeping your customers / supporters informed and commercial considerations with regard to telling your competitors what you are planning, and it’s up to ShopBot to decide where that balance should be. I think most people on this forum would agree that ShopBot are probably the most ‘open’ CNC company on the web, but expecting them to tell everything they may be planning is probably unrealistic.

[Brady Watson]

Yep...Brian is right. The Sears machine is a re-badged CarveWright. It is a very light duty machine that comes in below ShopBot in both price & capability. No doubt that these machines will be the 1st step for many looking to step up to a more production duty machine such as a PRT or Alpha...especially after their limitations are fully realized. Personally, I feel that there is plenty of room for everyone to play in the CNC market at this time...so while some view the Sears machine as a threat, I look to it as a market stimulator and not a threat to ShopBot's position in the market.

-B

[burchbot]

Hi Dan
You wrote
WTF A "holes" lol I was buying an alpha and the guys in shopbot office said to wait til late jan or early feb for a new model..
I can’t believe anybody at ShopBot would tell you to wait until a new model comes out. The alpha is the new model. Are you sure you understood them right? Is it possible they are back ordered two months ?
Perhaps Ted could chime in.
Dan

[richards]

Even though I've been writing a few posts in jest, if we could get serious here for just a minute ... Trust is the keyword in this thread. The Shopbot community is a small group of people who are/were willing to take a chance on Ted Hall and his team. The Shopbot CNC machine, although very capable in the entry level level of CNC machines, does not compete with the big iron machines. That is to be expected. A machine that costs closer to $10,000 than to $200,000 will not have all the bells and whistles of a 'big iron' machine. The question is not what is 'left out', but what 'can it do'. In this regard, the Shopbot can do a lot of things - very well. Except for excessive 'chatter', my Alpha has performed well. In most cases, the experience of the owner/operator, ME, was the limiting factor. Shopbot has made major modifications in other products to enhance the capabilities of its other machines. The G4, although limited in current (amps) is a good solution for some of the PRT owners. Incorporating Gecko products goes a long way towards making their products 'mainstream'.

Now, to the nitty-gritty: Ted Hall has promised to keep us in the loop. I have no idea how many Alpha owners there are, but I would put the number at greater than five-hundred. That may be totally wrong. It may be considerably lower or considerably higher. The exact number isn't really important. However, the important fact is that a large group of people totally trusted Ted Hall and Shopbot to furnish a 'first class, top notch' machine at an affordable price. Ted is a brilliant man. He is totally aware that if that trust were to be breached, he might just as well close the doors to his company. A man's word is his bond. In this little world of Shopbot owners, integrity is everything. Without trust, there is no company. Personally, I believe that Ted would not sell his soul for money. He's just not that kind of guy.

[terryd]

I second that opinion,

TerryD

[fleinbach]

Mike,

I couldn't have said it better.

But I will re-iterate Ted's intentions are for the good of all, his Shopbot is only limited by the operator. Proper use of the tool will produce outstanding results. The company overall is also outstanding and believe me, I deal with lots of companies every day. Everyone I have dealt with at Shopbot is interested in only one thing, and that is to satisfy their customer.

[dray]

Yeah I didnt ask the question for no reason..

I have been on phone with Chris in sales at shopbot 3x now. Him and Frank both said a "NEW" model will out late JAN- Early Feb and that I should wait until then to purchase but I really need to get setup now. Then I went and saw a Techno from a sales company in Tustin Ca but When I got back home and Called the sales guy at shopbot but he had left for the day.

Which is why I asked.. I wanted to know price difference and how it differs from the PRT ALPHA.

I thought that someone on these boards would know and Chris took a week vacation for holidays.

I guess I can call them back on Monday.

[ted]

I think we've gotten up with Danny, but for others who have been following this lively thread ... I second much of what has been said!

Yes, we have a new line of tools coming out. Our problem has been that we wanted to let potential purchasers know as soon as possible that something was in the works. Our feeling is that it is not nice to buy something, only to discover a couple weeks later that there is now a newer model.

Thus, starting over a month ago, we've told potential purchasers that something was cooking so that they would have the option of getting the current tool now, or waiting for a new tool in February, or later. Of course, the first question they ask is how the tools compare -- and our delima is that while we know in general what the new tools will look like, many of their features are not final (including pricing) so it is very hard to really be specific. If we waited until we knew everthing before we said anything, then we would be back in the situation of not providing adequate warning of the impending change ... or of having to go for many months without selling tools.

So, our thought was to let those who are putting money on the line know as much as we can tell them as soon as possible. This allows them to decide if they should delay, or get a PRT tool now. With respect to current owners, our idea is to get as much up on the website as soon as we get details finalized. We know it's a little frustrating that some of the information is vague, it's not a perfect system, but we're trying ...

Hopefully, in a couple of weeks after a little more development and testing, we will have some good pictures and solid specs that we can post.

Meanwhile, those who have been following the forum and other postings probably have a pretty good idea of what we are up to. We are very happy with our current motors, drivers, and control systems. [Oh yes, those belt drives would still be nice, but we still don't have them.] There will be two types of new PRS tools, PRSalphas and PRSstandards. The PRSalphas will use closed-loop alphaStep motors and drivers, and as per my web column (blum for short) they will come standard with 7.2 tapered-hob, gearheads. The PRSstandards will use the Version 4g control boards with Geckodrives, and 3.6, tapered-hob, gearheads. At its price point, each of these systems provides outstanding performance.

The tools differ primarily in having new rails and carriages. All rails are hardened, stainless, BWC motion-system rails. They are terrific. The modular gantry is more open, and based on a Bosch extruded beam that is extremely rigid. The Y/Z car is simple, very rigid, and is engineered to arrive and remain pefectly aligned and rigid. Gantries will be available in 8", 16" and 24" plunge (the 24" has a special table). You will recognize the tools by their familair, ShopBot wireguide.

We've designated them as PRS, representing 'Personal Robotic Systems'. 'Systems' because they will be sold as complete systems: tool, table, prox switches, dust-skirt included.

PRSalpha tools will be priced similary to current PRTalphas. PRSstandard tools will be somewhat less expensive than current tools. The best PRSstandard deal will be on 96x48 tools (and benchtops when we finish them), the best deal on PRSalphas will be on the 96x60 model. These are the tools that we expect to produce in the highest volumes.

Yes, current ShopBotters will appreciate the improved rails and gantries. And yes, as soon as we can get it together, we will create a fairly-priced, upgrade package that will fit on existing tables.

At the moment, we are already well into February with respect to availability of PRS tools.

We will try to get new information posted as soon as it becomes available. The formal announcement of the new tools will be the first week of January. But we will try to get some preview info on the web sooner.

Ted Hall, ShopBot Tools

[jseiler]

" The modular gantry is more open, and based on a Bosch extruded beam that is extremely rigid."

Which bosch section is it? 4590? It also looks like the side rails are bosch as well. Are the 4590 or larger?

[ted]

Here's a link to a preliminary brochure on ShopBot's new PRS CNC tools.

Preliminary PRS Brochure (PDF) (http://www.shopbottools.com/files/PRSPrelimBrochure12_8_06.pdf)

In response to John's question above, the Bosch extrusion is 100x200. The table sides are a 1.5x6" extrusion. (We have been shipping this type of table for about 6 months. See E-Table Assembly in Support>Documentation.)

Ted Hall, ShopBot Tools

[pfulghum]

Ted,
Thanks for keeping us in the loop.
Now for the question everybody is asking...


Cut presision is my primary concern. (no chatter)

Will my $12,000 2006 Model Alpha be upgradeable?
How much of it will I have to replace?
Cost to upgrade? (Rough numbers ok)

-- Pat

[richards]

It looks like a major improvement to me. The gearing on the Alpha model should give excellent speed and excellent accuracy. A vertical gantry will eliminate much of the frustration that exists with the horizontal gantry. I'm a little leary when it comes to the size of the Z-axis and the motor mount, but I trust Ted and those who designed the new machine to have checked various sizes before settling on this particular configuration. Going from the fairly rough rails to B/W rails should add a great deal of smoothness.

One thing that I had hoped to see was having the X-axis rails dropped below the table so that material could easily be loaded from all sides. Since I'm a one-man shop, having to load from the bottom of the machine (or breaking my back to load from the sides) limits productivity.

[fleinbach]

Mike,

I have't had back trouble since I installed my Vacuum sheet lift.

$79.95 for 800lb hoist from Harbor Freight.
$65.00 worth of steel for gantry
$125.00 for Gast vacuum pump from flea market
Saved trips to Chiropractor Priceless

The only thing not inexpensivly obtainable is the $1,200.00 Gast vacuum pump. I got very lucky to find one at a flea market. But I must say after finding out how well this works I would have paid the price for a new pump if I had to.

The gantry allows me to load sheets from my storage rack or the ones I keep under my table. I have loaded 1" 5'X12' sheets and they weight 240lb




8765


8766


8767

[wcsg]

Nice looking, like the less obstructed Gantry. But is it truly AS sturdy as the existing? I've always wondered about other CNC's with that type of gantry, it just looks "frail"

[richards]

Erik,
I know almost nothing about mechanical engineering, but that won't stop me from offering an opinion.

Let's assume that both ends of the gantry are held in place perfectly, both while at rest and when moving, with the stepper motors (one on each end). If that is the case, then we only have to worry about sag along the Z-axis (or the opposite if the force of the cutter against the material pushes the gantry upward), and deflection of the gantry caused by the cutter pressing against the material as it cuts its way through the material.

Sag can be easily figured by knowing the weight of all the mechanical 'attachments' to the gantry (router/spindle, Z-axis, cabling, etc.). There is probably a chart somewhere that describes the amount of sag one can expect based on the characteristics of the aluminum extrusion and the weight hanging from that extrustion. I' guessing that 100-lbs of weight hanging from the middle of the gantry won't cause the extrusion to sag.

Deflection caused by pushing a cutter too hard, too fast, could be measured by cutting a 45-degree diagonal across the material at different feed rates and router/spindle RPM. As long as the cuts were straight, not arcs, I think that deflection could be ruled out.

When you think about it, the current Alpha stepper motors, without a gearbox, don't have a lot of torque when cutting material at 10-inches per second. If the cuts are working now, there can't be much pressure against the cutter, or there would be a lot of stalling (on the part of the motors) and swearing (on the part of the operators).

[patricktoomey]

I will wait for someone else to be the guinea pig to see about flexing of the gantry. It takes a tremendous amount of aluminum to prevent flexing so I'm a little suspicious at the moment. The "big iron" machines with vertical gantries use huge amounts of material to stay stiff.

It looks like I'm getting a Weeke machining center in January. It is a big iron machine and I can tell you that I was astonished at how heavy the gantry is and how much metal there is in there. It has 2 15HP spindles on it so it has to be massive but it is rock solid no matter how hard you push.

I know weight is an issue here due to the drive train but I hope this new system is stronger than the existing one. If it proves to be then I plan to upgrade the rails and gantries on my PRT to the new PRS style. I'll be keeping my ShopBot even after I get my Weeke since it does what I need now and will continue to more than earn its keep. But if I could stiffen it up some and get smoother motion at the same time, it would become even more valuable.

[richards]

Here are some deflection figures for 80/20 supplies aluminum, whose size is SMALLER than the Bosch extrusion. The 80/20 size is 3" X 6" (3060) and the Bosch is 100mm X 200mm (3.9" x 7.8").

Using the formula in the 80/20 book to determine sag caused by a single weight in the center of a beam that is supported at each end (page 37) shows that a 3" X 6" X 72" beam will deflect about 0.0035" with a weight of 100-lbs hanging from it's center point. Reducing the length of the beam to 60", reduces the deflection to 0.002". The much larger Bosch extrusion (in cross section) would be significantly stronger and show much less deflection.

To give you an idea of the difference, 80/20's 1530 product (1.5" X 3") deflects 0.042" with the same span and same weight, or about 12X more than the larger 3060 product.

So, GUESSING a little, I would think that the Bosch extrusion would deflect less than 0.001".

That is pure speculation on my part, because I don't have any data on the Bosch part and I have no idea whether the formula that 80/20 uses is valid or not.

By the way, the 72" figure is the aproximate width of the gantry on my 120/60 Alpha. The 100-lb weight is much more than the spindle and Z-axis parts on my gantry. So, in reality, I'm using inflated figures to show that deflection would not be a problem except for the most precision work. (How many people really expect a CNC router to hold Z-axis deviation to LESS than the thickness of a piece of copy paper?)

[patricktoomey]

I like the bigger machines which are good to half a thousandth all the way around but that is over $100K. For the price of a ShopBot I would be thrilled to get anything under .005 in flex! Those numbers sound really good, I can't wait to see the real thing and to get the prices on upgrades. Another reason I'm anxious is that I would like to convert the bot to do turnings most of the time since my new machine doesn't have an option for an indexer. Part of making that happen will be to get the much larger Z axis available with the PRS. This is going to be great and I'm already drooling just thinking about being able to carve giant corbels using the indexer, Vectric Cut3D and the bigger Z axis.

[harryball]

I have the 2006 alpha with aluminum rails on it so it looks like the new gantry would be a quick fit. However... I'm looking at it wondering how dual Z's would run on the 48 x 96 Alpha. I don't currently have 2 Z's but it's a much desired upgrade. I can't see there would be enough room for both Z's to work the full table width if installed side by side.

Can a second Z be installed back to back?

Robert

[paco]

Face to face instead. It should cover the 48" X 96" area.

[harryball]

I should have been clearer... I meant on the new gantry. It doesn't look like 2 Z's will fit side by side and cover 48 inches.

Will they install back to back on the new gantry?

Robert

[richards]

Robert,
Mounting multiple routers/spindles is also one of my concerns. It seems to me that if the X-rails were dropped below the surface of the spoil board and the gantry was extended about a foot, then at least two routers/spindles could fit side-by-side, kind of like this tongue-in-cheek drawing (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/show.cgi?tpc=312&post=43682#POST43682). Fitting two routers/spindles front-to-back so that they sandwiched the extrusion might also work, but it doesn't seem to be as clean as mounting them side-to-side.

Back to the deflection question. I ran across a Bosch web site at www.boschrexroth.com/country_units/america/united_states/en/products/brl/product_overview1/mge_new/index.jsp (http://www.boschrexroth.com/country_units/america/united_states/en/products/brl/product_overview1/mge_new/index.jsp). They have a deflection calculator that you can download. Using the same specs that I posted earlier, the Bosch calculator shows zero deflection with the 100mm X 200mm extrusion.

[bill_lumley]

Frank , thanks for the info on your vacuum sheet lift . I would like to build one also for my work area . I have one question about your gantry . I see the Harbour Freight winch has two loops to mount to an overhead pipe . How do you move the winch along the pipe ? Do you just pull the sheet and it brings the winch with it ? Have you lubricated the pipe in any way to facilitate this or do you find it works fine with just pulling the sheet along the pipe from below .

Thanks Bill

[fleinbach]

Bill,

The winch slides on the square tube by pulling the sheet. Yes, it is greased and slides easily.I did have a plan to add rollers to the brackets if the greased tube didn't work but after using it awhile decide that wasn't nessacary.

By the way the vacuum puck is nothing but a 10" diameter piece of MDF with 2 holes drilled through it. I put an eye bolt through the center one for the winch line. I threaded an air hose quick connect through the other one right into the MDF. For a seal I used a piece of stick on door seal from Home Depot. And to prevent air leakage through the MDF I used duct tape and a piece of 6 mil plastic sheet. I have intended on making a better one for the past 2 years but this is working so well I seem to never get around to it.

[bill_lumley]

Thanks for the clarification Frank . For those interested in doing this but not sure about a vacuum source or the potential cost as mentioned by Frank earlier check out www.joewoodworker.com (http://www.joewoodworker.com) or www.vacuumclamping.com (http://www.vacuumclamping.com) . A simple and inexpensive vacuum source is a venturi run from a compressor of sufficient capacity with appropriate fittings . Joe woodworker goes into great depth about how to make a great vacuum pump from parts .

[Brady Watson]

There are some neat videos of the new PRS for those interested by following this external link: ShopBot Videos (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=shopbot)

-B

[team08]

Wow, I have never seen an Alpha in person, or a bot moving faster than 4ips but that is SCARY! Sometimes I look over the table at the cut and it looks like I could get knocked out by this machine if I didn't pay attention! Are thos linear slides along the X axis.

[joe]

Partick,

I think Ted's made an excellent decision with the new Bosch gantry.

I agree with you in regards to the big iron, expensive CNC's. They're tried and porven old world, however there's some very attracitve aluminum equipment coming to the market. One is Techno-Isel LLC series. These units are not in the budget for most Shopboters but there a break away from big iron. I expect to see more aluminum in furture of many CNC's.

So my vote is for the new gantry, sight unseen. I predict when we look back in a couple of years the old, bolt together, angle iron, hard to keep square, wobbbly gantry's won't look that good.

Keep up the good work.

J