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Thread: Need to resume cut-file tomorrow: how to do it?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyc View Post
    Unless there is an impending electrical storm, there is no real reason to turn off the control box or computer. Ever. We all do, but not because its needed.
    That's not really true, Gary. I use a higher end PC running XP Pro with 16 GB of RAM and a fast processor and large HD, and I still find that preplanned hard shutdowns preclude accumulated errors on long runs. Microsoft's operating systems are not designed to stay powered up indefinitely and benefit from periodic hard shutdowns (by "hard shutdown" I mean turn it completely off, wait a minute, then turn it back on...not just do a reboot).

    Like Joe Johnston I also do long runs of 20-plus hours spread over several days. As noted in several posts above, the key to perfect multi-day runs is to maintain machine position. To do that I use the S-key to stop the 'bot, then quit, exit SB3 and shut down the computer. I leave the control box powered up. THIS IS THE KEY IN MY EXPERIENCE. I don't re-zero the 'bot, move it to 0,0, or anything else. The next morning I power up, warm up, and use FG to restart the run. It works perfectly for me.

    During the day I also reboot the computer at lunch. To do that I follow the "overnight" routine I just described, only I restart the computer after turning the computer completely off for one minute. In years past losing position between reboots was an irritant that I had to deal with, but since settling on my current technique I have never been disappointed.

    Oh...one more thing. I never zero off the work piece, since I often carve its entire upper surface. Instead, I always zero off the waste board at a position that I write in my log book for each piece. That way, no matter what happens I can run C3 to get a consistent 0,0, then go to the exact same X,Y time after time to z-zero after tool changes. Also, ditch the 0.121 aluminum z-zero tool...its CoTE is large enough to produce noticeable marks in the work piece after zeroing just a few hours apart (as the day heats up or cools off). Instead, use a .25 or even .5 or 1" steel z-zero tool...it is much more thermally stable.

  2. #22
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    It seems that my previous post upset some folks enough to warrant sending a PM/email to take me to task, so I thought I'd address some of their concerns. First, my PC doesn't have 16 GB of RAM. While preparing my post I looked at its specs and thought it said the computer has four 4 GB DIMMS. I was incorrect: it "has four connectors for installing dual inline memory modules (DIMMs) that provide up to a maximum of 4.0 GB of system memory." My bad...sorry. My point was that my PC is not memory deficient, which could be an explanation for why it might need shutting down periodically. Thank you for catching my error.

    Second, some of you think I was disrespectful and incorrect to differ with Gary's statement that we should not have to ever shut down our computer. Well, I don't know how I can disagree more tactfully than the way I put it ("That's not really true, Gary."), but I won't argue the point. Instead I'll just suggest you do a little digging over on Microsoft's support website (support.microsoft.com), where I found the following statement:

    Performance, architectural limits, and RAM

    On any computer system, as the load increases (the number of users, the volume of work), performance decreases, but in a nonlinear manner. Any increase in load or demand, beyond a certain point, causes a significant decrease in performance. This means that some resource is in critically short supply and has become a bottleneck.

    At some point, the resource that is in short supply cannot be increased. This means that an architectural limit has been reached. Some frequently reported architectural limits in Windows include the following:

    2 GB of shared virtual address space for the system (kernel)
    2 GB of private virtual address space per process (user mode)
    660 MB of system PTE storage (Windows Server 2003 and earlier)
    470 MB of paged pool storage (Windows Server 2003 and earlier)
    256 MB of nonpaged pool storage (Windows Server 2003 and earlier)

    This applies to Windows Server 2003 specifically, but this may also apply to Windows XP
    I underlined the significant part...your computer's memory gradually fills up with retained information to the point where performance is significantly degraded. This fact is inherent in Microsoft operating systems and cannot be avoided. The practical solution is to periodically do a complete shutdown to ensure the memory bank has time to bleed down (in an electrical sense) before restarting with a full reservoir of memory. Merely clicking "restart" doesn't always bleed down memory completely, and so your computer can end up starting up with part of its RAM already full and not available, which kind of defeats the purpose.

    Don't take my word for it. Don't take Gary's word for it. Take Microsoft's word for it...your computer needs to be shut down periodically to continue to function normally. Moreover, this is exactly what Shopbot's technical support personnel told me several years ago when I called asking about how large a program I can run on a computer with a fixed amount of memory. When I bought this computer it had 512 MB of RAM, and would lock up after several hours of cutting. I was routinely running toolpaths of hundreds of thousands of lines of code, and Shopbot's recommendation was to max out the RAM in my computer and to periodically do a shutdown and restart.

    There were other points of disagreement, but this is enough for one night. As I noted in my post, which after all was intended to assist the OP asking for help, if you have to stop your computer leave the controller powered up and the tool in its paused position, do a hard restart when you're ready to work again and use FG to resume where you left off. This technique works very well for me, and I trust it will for you, too.

  3. #23
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    I didn't read every word, just breezed thru so i don't know what was or wasn't said re:differing opinions, so i'm not taking sides but in my experience on my in home computer, i use it during the day then i just put it to sleep, wake it back up work, put it to sleep. It does use up memory and even after you close a task there is residual fragments taking up memory. If you have a boatload of memory it won't affect you but if you have a limited amount you will notice it.

    Every 3-4 days i have to shut it down completely so that the memory dumps itself and things run faster and smoother.

  4. #24
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    Stan, don't forget that the use most of us put our ShopBot PC's to is very different to anything most Windows users do.

    Most 'botters run the control software and nothing else with the PC stripped right back.

    Compare that to "normal" users who would be opening and closing several different programs and doing all sorts of varied operations every day.

    Also you're misinterpreting what Microsoft are saying. They're not saying you need to do a hard restart to gain that memory back, merely reduce the number of users attached to it or the amount of work that pool of users is doing. Not to mention that the way a server operating system handles it resource pool is very different to a desktop one.

    Most people who experience "ram drain" are running programs that have memory leaks and/or don't release memory problem when shut down.

    Flash is one of the worst offenders for this which is why people who browse all the time have to shut their PC's down every few days to get the memory back. There are other ways of doing it but a shutdown is by far the easiest.

  5. #25
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    The issue is not your total memory or disk capacity, the issue is pesky little fragments of non-useable memory. The non-useable memory is not permanently non-useable just non-useable while the system is currently running. In example 1 all of the useable memory is packed in pretty good. In example 2 Program B has terminated and left a good size hole in the available memory, but the next program to run is Program E but it won’t fit in the space so it gets loaded up higher in memory, like example 3. This leaves a fragment of memory vacant. In example 4 the next program loads into the small fragment space but creates an even smaller fragment of unused space. Over a period of time the available memory gets eaten up with more and more of these little unused fragments. When you turn your machine off and then back on to restart the programs they get reloaded like example 1 and there are no fragments to start with. The longer the machine is on the more fragments will get created. This also happens on your disk drive and that is why you should frequently DEFRAG your disk drive, to use up all of the little fragments of empty space. Defrag of the disk drive is similar to turning your computer off and then back on. The defrag disk process is actually re-writing the data from front to back to use up all those spaces. I hope this makes since, thanks for listening. Russ

    Last edited by chiloquinruss; 03-12-2012 at 06:18 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianm View Post
    Stan, don't forget that the use most of us put our ShopBot PC's to is very different to anything most Windows users do.

    Most 'botters run the control software and nothing else with the PC stripped right back.

    Compare that to "normal" users who would be opening and closing several different programs and doing all sorts of varied operations every day.

    Also you're misinterpreting what Microsoft are saying. They're not saying you need to do a hard restart to gain that memory back, merely reduce the number of users attached to it or the amount of work that pool of users is doing. Not to mention that the way a server operating system handles it resource pool is very different to a desktop one.

    Most people who experience "ram drain" are running programs that have memory leaks and/or don't release memory problem when shut down.

    Flash is one of the worst offenders for this which is why people who browse all the time have to shut their PC's down every few days to get the memory back. There are other ways of doing it but a shutdown is by far the easiest.
    You're correct, Adrain. The Shopbot control software's load on the machine is very different to virtually any consumer software. I run a stripped down version of XP on my computer with no consumer software on it at all, except for Adobe Reader. No browser. No email client. No wordprocessor, spreadsheet, CAD/CAM...nothing. Not even a LAN or internet connection. (I have to "sneaker net" my toolpaths from another computer to it.) It's also true that server OS's are very different to consumer-grade OS's, even though they often will readily run the same programs. They have better memory management, among other things. XP, Vista and Win7 are designed with the consumer experience foremost in mind, while server OS's have different priorities. The bottom line for both is that they can use up their memory to the point that performance degrades, as articulated so clearly by Russ. For me the solution has been to periodically do a hard shutdown and restart. I always start each toolpath from a freshly booted computer, and do a pause and shutdown every 4 hours or so on long runs. This has saved me a lot of headaches and ruined pieces, and I trust it will work as well for anyone else who needs to leave a toolpath incomplete for whatever reason.

  7. #27
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    Wink Stand-alone or die?

    I couldn't imagine running a Shopbot from anything other than a dedicated computer
    standing in complete isolation from the internet and other browser/email/etc software!

    So you have to sneaker-net the cut file from the design computer to the SB computer.
    We do that via USBkey, but the untold hardship is worth the while.
    It involves moving all of about four feet to the right of where we make the cut-files.


    Our SB computer runs the pared-down Mini-XP used by developers
    (ideal for running the SB.....no frills) and it has no other software
    apart from CCleaner utility, Eusing Registry Cleaner and Perfect Disk v.11 for file management/defrag.
    .
    ________________________________________

    You don't have to be half-crazy to do CNC
    but it sure helps...

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhunt View Post
    So you have to sneaker-net the cut file from the design computer to the SB computer.
    We do that via USBkey, but the untold hardship is worth the while.
    It involves moving all of about four feet to the right of where we make the cut-files.


    Our SB computer runs the pared-down Mini-XP used by developers
    (ideal for running the SB.....no frills) and it has no other software
    apart from CCleaner utility, Eusing Registry Cleaner and Perfect Disk v.11 for file management/defrag.
    .
    Yes, I operate by sneaker-net...only I have to walk about 30 feet! But my OS is not as early as yours. I use a Service Pack 1 XP Pro package from 2002 on my computer. It's incredibly stable given that I am not exposing it to the interwebs...

  9. #29
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    Wink Some months later.....

    I had a similar situation where I again had to stop a long cut-file overnight.

    I halted the operation at Line 7363 and turned everything off for the weekend, leaving the machine right where I halted it.
    This was Friday at 5 p.m.

    Came back Monday morning, after having re-read all of the above entries over the weekend and doing some thinking..
    someone mentioned Command FG, and that 'rang a bell' vaguely.

    So I came in this morning, fired the whole thing up again ..to find my X,Y and Z coordinates exactly where I left them on Friday p.m.
    hit FG, identified the file I was cutting, followed my nose further, typed in Line 7363 and then Start from Here or whatever it was
    -and I've just saved myself about 2+ hours of having to retrace Friday's cutting from 0.

    Success!...feels good
    .
    ________________________________________

    You don't have to be half-crazy to do CNC
    but it sure helps...

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