Copying the Work of Others...

[stump]

Just looking for some thoughts on what is acceptable policy. Eric had the following post when asked about sharing his design:

David,

Thanks for the compliments on my signs.

But, being as I'm marketing my signs nationwide, I'd prefer if you didn't copy my designs or layouts.

I share my sign making experiences with the ShopBot forum community freely because there are so many other folks sharing their experiences too. Like others, I freely share set-up information, feed rates and types of bits used, etc. I've shared the type of paint and finish I've found to work the best, and I've even shared some of my marketing ideas that have worked well for me. I share this information with the forum because they inspire me to be better at what I'm doing, not because I want people copying what I'm doing.

I'm not the first to be making the carved "Welcome to the Cabin" signs. There are tons of folks making these small, affordable, personalized wood signs. But, I tried as hard as I could to make mine look as different from the rest as I could. I want my signs to have a unique look to them if possible.

Hopefully, some of the information I've shared has helped others with projects they've been working on. I'm very happy that I've inspired you to try your hand at making some small signs. There's plenty of business out there for everyone. But, please don't copy me. Thanks.

I totally agree with him on this. His signs are original and look great. That said, I did copy one of his designs as a gift for my Mom last Christmas. I don't see that as being a problem, it was a one off and a gift. But where do you draw the line? If I make 10 and give them away is that okay since I am gifting them? Or what if I only sell one or two, does selling them make a difference?

I am in the same boat with the puzzles we make. There are similar puzzles all over the place, we hardly have a monopoly on the design. Some of our puzzles are based on designs that are hundreds of years old. We try to distinguish ours by making them better, a higher quality puzzle. Still, I know that I would be bummed if someone else copied them and started competing with us.

That said, competition is part of capitalism and makes the system work. Thank goodness for that, or I wouldn't have a Shopbot! Their secret is this forum and support. It is what made us choose a 'bot.

Okay, enough of this rant. What are your thoughts? What is fair use in a business sense? Is it an email to the original designer, making a modification, or just taking another person's lead and running with it?

Maybe I am making more out of this than necessary, maybe it's that "Minnesota Nice" we are infected with around here...

[chiloquinruss]

My personal feeling is that it is a matter of your attorney versus my attorney! If what I was coping for whatever reason was something that I saw some other crafter made at a craft show, it would probably not pay them to go after me. If on the other hand what I was coping was from Disney or Mattel or NASCAR, then I would be very very careful to document that they were simply giifts and have all of your oiriginal art saved to show how you got your copy. I would diffently NOT sell any of the objects listed in the second case shown. Again that's just my opinion! Russ

[steve_g]

Miles

I don't copy others work but am clearly influenced or inspired by other peoples work.... an act allowed by the "fair use" laws of the USA. Now, I'm irritated when some people use a font that you can also legally use, compose words from the English language that you have every right to use, add a graphic from a clip art source you may also own and claim it as an original copyrighted work. Some may claim the composition is original... Well so is yours!

Steve

[CNYDWW]

I've had a few nasty e'mails from people saying i've copied their work. It's recently been on the victorian gingerbread trim i've been working on. I was actually nice to the guy i showed him the blog i found with the very design he was complaining about. It happened to be about the restoration of an old victorian house. The pattern came from a lot of 60 or so balusters the gentleman bought from a salvage yard. The reply was, "But it's MY design". With that i asked if his design was up to code as far as child safety and if he had a matched set that was modified to make sure that with proper spacing it was in fact up to code. I haven't received an e'mail since. In reality, anything like this can be copied. A slight variation of the original which "improves" the design makes it a whole new item.

Regards
Randy

[wardsa]

This has been a real issue for me. I do not post much but this struck a nerve. A couple years ago I started doing a little suppliment product to keep my "Bot" running when cabinets were slow. I will be the first to admit, I did not invent or was the first to make these. But what I did do was research and make sure I didn't step on anyone locally. I invested $1000.00's into marketing, show's, website......... I brought a few to "camp's", explained my process (which I worked many hour's to perfect) to anyone interested only to find a few other people in MI doing the same thing now. Even as far as their font's, layout's, marketing material and verbage is the same. I've had people at show's looking at my work and when I ask if they have any question's, they say "No, just trying to figure out how I can make these myself". Maybe I'm a "wise ass", but I will explain exactly how to do it. Buy a $20,000. CNC, buy $5,000. in software, spend $1000.'s on marketing, spend weekends at shows and you too can make a $200. carving! I have no idea if they are fellow "Botter's" or not. They could have just seen it at a show or on the Web, but it's very frustrating! It is a VERY small market and now I feel like none of use will make money at it. I have nothing against hobbiest, we were probably all hobbiest at one point but none of us can compete with a guy that has a "Desktop" in his garage and makes things in his spare time(not implying any of you fit that). Sorry for the RANT, and I know it is one but this was a product line I was hoping to build and be able to do as my body gives out from doing cabinet's for years. It's true, almost no one does truely "original" work anymore. I get it that idea's or processes are alway's borrowed. What I've learned on this Forum is immeasurable. I just wish people would take a step back and say " Can I make it different/better and is there room in this market for me too?" I won't give up though, I've invested way too much.
Again, sorry for the rant.

[Brian Harnett]

I try to make sure what I do is my design but there are so many designs similarities will come up, I have never looked at another piece of work and copied it and passed it off as my own, notwithstanding the legality, morally it is just wrong.

Years back I worked for a company that made teak outdoor furniture I did most of the CAD and prototype work. The boss decided to branch into indoor and literally had me copy Original design mission Furniture from a very well known company, when I said we need to make the design different he told me "There is no copyright on furniture".

Fast forward about a year we got sued by That well known company, this is after catalogs had been shipped nationwide 70 percent of what we had in the catalog had been ruled by the court we could not make.

It was a very expensive lesson on arrogant copyright infringement.

[Brady Watson]

This is a sticky and nebulous topic that covers quite a bit of ground.

There is no such thing as an original idea. Some people are 'tuned in' and pick up 'unique' ideas at the same time...as was the case with Guglielmo Marconi and Alexander Bell. We all like to think we've got something unique and 'original'...but the truth is, you just picked up on it with your 'antenna'. It already existed. I know that does little to comfort the ego...but we really aren't as crafty as we think we are.

Here's where things get 'muddy'....If I see something that someone has developed, refined and put themselves into, there is a certain amount of respect I have, as a craftsman in appreciation for what that person made. I recognize how much time & effort went into it, because I have done similar projects in the past. "That" is 'his thing', and I respect that. Perfect example is a product that one of the members on here put the time in to make, with profits going towards a charitable cause or endeavor...then another member copied the design and undercut the original guy, basically squashing his charitable efforts. I'm all for laissez faire, but integrity and conscience also play a role - especially if you have self respect & respect for your fellow craftsmen. This sort of 'ripping off' is disrespectful in a 'small pond'...and you shouldn't poop where you eat.

I've thought long an hard about making instructional videos for a lot of things ShopBot related...and if you have ever made a video properly, you would know how many hours and how much effort goes into making a 1st class production that is truly valuable. What turned me off to doing it is the fact that a few copies would be sold and then uploaded to the net for a free for all warez orgy on Pirate Bay or something. With countless bootlegs of CAD/CAM out there, what makes me think that my stuff won't get 'jacked' as well? There is no way to really protect the info long enough to make it profitable & get paid for all the time I would have put into them...so, the incentive to do this is low...and that is the price we pay for doing the things we collectively do as society. How many other people are keeping their light under a bushel basket because of this?

Craft shows are ridiculous. Count on having everything you have duplicated in 1 or 2 years by other vendors. That is the nature of that arena & it is not much different than any other area of the marketplace. You have to keep creating and making new things to bring to market to keep your competition at bay. You cannot get hung up on the copying thing...You have to let your babies go & press on and make new ones. That's just the way it is. No matter how great you think your trinket is, in hindsight it probably isn't that great so get over yourself, don't rest on your laurels and make some new stuff.

Business ethics and integrity plays a major role in my day to day business. People send me many things to laser scan/digitize. Most of them are things that they hand carved, which makes them unique because it is their interpretation of what they saw with their eyes & translated with their hands. There are also other items that are commercially produced, and some of them require express permission from the copyright holder or owner before I will copy. I am certainly not going to be scanning Coke bottles unless I get documentation directly from them. There are certain guidelines that have to be followed in order to 'walk the line'. If I had no ethics and scruples in my business, then I would be selling my customer's data on a 3D clipart site and making a fortune...but what good would I be for my customers who want to make some money on their work before it is eventually copied by someone else? What good would I be if I didn't keep my customer's data and images private? Probably not much...which is why I don't & customers depend on my integrity for that.

Ideas are a lot like food. You are essentially renting them. You don't get to keep that steak you had the other day...but you get to use it for a while. Same goes for ideas. Use them, get what you can out of them to sustain you, and move on to another one.

-B

[waynelocke]

I agree with Brady that it mostly comes down to personal ethics. While nothing is wholly original, specific designs are an original response to a problem. I get paid for my designs and I put a © on all of my drawings, photos and renderings knowing full well that I am not going to pursue any action if someone copies. It merely and hopefully makes "personal ethics" a more conscious thought on someone's part.

I am constantly befuddled and mildly outraged when I see an otherwise high end woodworking or furniture show and see knockoffs of Maloof rockers. Maloof freely shared his chair designs and techniques, but, come on. If you have the skill to reproduce it and respect for the design — then respect the design and the designer and and at least change it in some significant way that doesn't require a curator to discern. Or at the very least, acknowledge that it is a copy.

I remember a story where Robert Rauschenburg asked Willem de Kooning if he minded that artists copied his work. de Kooning smiled and said, "They can only copy the good ones."

[michael_schwartz]

If somebody were making a living off a book they authored, it would not be ok to go buy a printing press, start printing their book, to sell for a profit.

Same thing applies to the furniture manufacture who has a design patent on a CNC produced table. It would not be ok to buy a CNC router, and copy that work.

Now the question is if your lawyer said it were ok to copy a work because it were not protected by law, would it be acceptable to do so from a moral standpoint? I don't think it would be ethical especially when you consider intellectual property protection that is available to small shops is limited, and the creator might have the intent to protect their works, but no obtainable legal means within the scale of their work to do so.

We do not have the same mechanisms available to protect our work, that a photographer, painter, architect, author, musician, or recording artist may have. I feel this is unfortunate, and it sets a bad precedent. In many circumstances, it does come down to an ethical choice and not just a legal decision. I have to agree with Brady's comments.

To some degree copyright protection is a available but the law is vague in regards to furniture, and many do not even know this is possible.

If somebody were to ask me directly for my permission to reproduce my work for (1) non commercial use, (2) charitable work, or (3) limited resale, in non competing market I will generally provide permission to do so long as they agree to provide full attribution, when promoting said reproduction. In certain circumstances I may not grant permission, or I would ask for a very reasonable licensing fee, and I would ask that my choice be respected.

I do have products that I sell that I avoid showing on woodworking, or cnc related forums, or even my own website, because they would be fairly easy to copy.

[billp]

For those delusional few who still think that they can "fly under the radar' remember; EVERY key stroke you have EVER made on your computer is recorded somewhere, by someone, so the idea that you 'thought it up all by yourself' may not be such a great defense in the Cyber age...
PS- http://www.democracynow.org/2012/4/2...e_surveillance