Ideas for sale?

[ccmarsh]

First off I would like to just say that I love this forum. It's great to watch all of you bouncing ideas off each other and helping each other out with things like troubleshooting, where to find deals on materials, giving advice. It's reminds me of family helping each other out.

I quickly noticed however that when it comes to sharing files...the conversations ended abruptly. I quess my question is why isn't there a Forum on Shopbot where people can sell the files of the things that they have created? I know there is one for Shopbot's that are for sale or accessories for the machine but no place for files. I also know that you can go to Vectric and other places to buy cut files. I've seen the work that many of you have done and have been amazed and I bet many of you could make some very good money selling your files. I'd buy some.

I appologize if this is the wrong place to post this question.

[steve_g]

Chris

Something I seem to do when presented with a good idea is instantly become "Devils advocate" and look for problems rather than see the possibilities... It's a personality characteristic that has served me well but often been misinterpreted by others as negativity. I see it as reality.

Just some random thoughts here... I'm inviting comments on them.

I have been criticized by family and friends for "giving away" ideas here... At this stage in my life that's all I want to do.

Most folks with ideas or plans to sell do it on their own web sites...

I'm glad this site isn't like some other CNC sites where blatant copyright infringement is going on...

Any project I've posted can be reproduced, changed, improved or customized by anyone familiar with design software (PartWorks Etc.).

Often its not the designs but the customizations we've made to our Bots that make us unique...

I can see rip-offs and hurt feelings galore... sometimes we act like little girls here! It's the ladies at headquarters that keep us focused... (Hi Nancy)

Plans are easy... it's the explaining that's hard to do. A simple box rapidly becomes a magazine article or treatise. Most of us woodworkers do what we do because we love the smell, feel and look of wood... not pen and paper.

Non sticky postings soon fade into oblivion. The article I edited about router bits will soon be forgotten by all but skilled searchers. (not griping, it's just an example of a fact)

I'm sure others will have thoughts too -- SG

[dana_swift]

@Chris, the Shopbot site has "ready to cut" files. Go try them. What I expect you will find is that after one or two of these, you find you want to make it "your way".

Each of us has our unique shop setup, capabilities, skills and talents. Posting the files is of little value to me. If I decide to make something, I would rather re-think out how it is laid out on the table. That makes me think about how it will go together later. If I just have cut files I dont know what the intention is.

I cut a lot of parts out that become a fixture for holding the other parts during assembly. How do I explain that to anyone else? They cant read my thoughts and would end up with some strange left-over parts. They become firewood after the project is done.

At first just cutting the project parts seems like a huge hurdle. Later you will start thinking.. hmm I could use one of these over there.. and one of those over here.. hmm.. yea.. and hold it together with a thingy.. etc.

A photo of a finished thing is all I need if I want to copy it. Perhaps even less.

Setting up the layout and assembly for my methods is presumably happening with every reader of the forum. I would find it surprising to find any senior member of the forum to want my files. They might like the product ideas.. which I sometimes post.

Once I post a picture of anything, I figure I have just given away the idea. Any skilled person can look at it and come up with an equivalent quickly.

What to me is more valuable is techniques. The fact I use an obscure belt sander three inches long and 0.3" wide. Most of the users of the forum don't care and cant see what they would do with one. I couldn't live without it, and I did freely tell about it in a very recent post.

@Crhis & @Steve

Giving away ideas. I have never seen any of my ideas for sale in my market area. I suppose sooner or later one will show up. There is an old saying about imitation and flattery.

When I go to a craft shop or flea market, I just look at stuff and go.. hmm if I need one of those I will just make my own. And I will build it better, whatever my definition of better is.

@Steve Your excellent tutorial on router bits is a standard handout of mine when I teach people how to run the shopbot. I recommend it highly and keep pointing new users to it. Shopbot should get a copy and put it on their site.

I am surprised that people would rather post a question than go to google and so a good search.

Unfortunately I see some questionable advise posted here sometimes. Yet when I go to google I seem to find good information quickly. Not necessarily on the first page of search results (mostly ads now.) When a new forum user asks what kind of bit for a specific application, another person will give them an opinion. You gathered the best-of bit information and put it into a single document. The new person has no idea that such good information is easier to get than the unqualified answer they accepted. Search first.. ask second.

So Steve- thank you for your efforts. I hope to slow the fade-to-oblivion of your fine efforts.

D

[Brady Watson]

I quickly noticed however that when it comes to sharing files...the conversations ended abruptly. I quess my question is why isn't there a Forum on Shopbot where people can sell the files of the things that they have created?

Chris,
I'll tell you why from my perspective, which is very different from most. I have been active in the CNC community long enough to observe a few things. There are few people who actually have created 'from scratch' original files that they can claim are truly their own - who also share freely from the goodness of their own heart. The cold hard truth is that there are very few people out there doing original work, and those that do, put in all the time and effort to create said original work & don't want to give away what they did to 'charity' and/or want to maintain exclusivity by keeping posession of the file. It really gets dicey when you start selling files, because you have to know the source of the file you are buying - otherwise, there could be legal problems. There are copyright free files available for purchase online, which seem to satisfy the needs of many & there are many of us out there who create files from scratch or derivative works of your original hand crafts for a fee. The 'selling files' thing opens up a whole can of worms, which leads into other things like 'sharing' (which is a watered down way of saying stealing).

I have strong thoughts and feelings about the idea of file sharing. I think it is great to have some files of various projects that we can all share - like Bill Young's rubber band racer, saw horses etc., which in cutting is sort of a ShopBot initiation exercise. I think this is healthy for the community and encourages (or should) people to come up with their own ingenious 'CNC only' projects - and there are a few of you out there who do share their hard work willingly. Thank you!

What I have a real problem with is the hording and sharing of 3D relief files - for 2 reasons. One, it takes real talent, skill and an understanding of aethetics to pull off good relief creation. This means that someone had to put in the time & energy to create it in the first place. As time goes on, there seems to be less and less respect for artists who create reliefs. The sharing of files that you didn't pay for is outright stealing. Same goes for 3D clipart that you buy...this should not be shared on the internet free-for-all. It is stealing. The 3D clipart that is available now is fine for most who lack the talent to create it themselves - and in most cases is cheaper than creating it yourself if that's what your clients want. Spend the few bucks on actually buying these files - Don't share them! Actual people with families make these files...in case anyone forgot that little tidbit!

The second reason is more philosophical. As a fellow craftsman, I know what it takes to sculpt things from scratch and hammer away at something that is truly original. 10 years ago, I could barely draw a stickman. But...I saw an ArtCAM demonstration, and dreamed, wished and hoped that some day I could also learn to sculpt. I wanted it really bad. I put in the time, day after day, night after night - working through the frustrations until I 'got' it. I cut my teeth and sharpened my proverbial chisel during these hours and days of intense trial and error and made $2/hr doing it as my customers paid me to learn... I think everyone should have to put in their time to properly learn the craft. YOU ARE STEALING FROM YOURSELF when you get lazy and share files, or take credit for something you didn't create yourself. Have a look around at those who repeatedly say, "Can I get a copy" - They have stolen from themselves as they will never get the joy or satisfaction of their own work - and that my friends, is the ultimate crime in all of this. It erodes the craft away until you are all cutting out the same eagle file looking for a trophy for your efforts.

Lastly, in recent years I have noticed the 'flavor' of people new to CNC change quite a bit. In the early years, there was a lot more original work being displayed and even shared on the SB and ArtCAM forums. Then I noticed that this file 'sharing' thing was becoming a normal occurance - an expectation, as if buying a CNC router somehow bought your way into also gaining free access to other's artistic merits - an entitlement. Knowing how much effort goes into creating something original makes, "Can I get a copy of that file?" WORSE than saying something snide about your mother. It says, "What you do is cheap and worthless - give me a copy - I'm entitled to it." This rampant disrespect for the craft and craftsman lead to a HUGE exodus of people's participation on some of these forums - which is why you don't see the same level of talent being displayed and shared anymore. Sorry to say, but most of the work I see now is a watered down mimeograhed copy of the talent of days gone by. It's not the same. I don't say that from sour grapes, but more of a "Hey you kids need to kick it up a notch if you want to be 'on the level' with your work." There is real money to be made when you create your own files & put in the time & effort...you get the BIG jobs. Excellence is not achieved by mistake!

You don't see as many high quality files out there because many of the really talented producers of these files are afraid of getting ripped off. Imagine putting 40 hours into a relief sculpture and you plan on selling 100 copies to make up for the time you invested. Then you sell only 10 copies, but find that you can download YOUR FILE(!) on some internet warez site. There is no recourse other than to stop selling the files...and we all lose as a result.

Anyway...those are a few reasons why file sharing and selling is not more prevalent on this board.

-B

[danhamm]

Amazing, when I read CCMarshes post I had this feeling in my gut,

Brady Watson, you just climbed to the top, with that post and you emptied the feelin in my gut, you are one damn good writer..

Salute'...

[ccmarsh]

I obviously have stuck a nerve with some of you and for that I truly am sorry. Make no mistake I do understand the hours it takes behind a computer desk designing things in cad/cam (Mastercam). However the things I create aren't even close to the beautiful work that I have seen on this forum so I have never had to worry about people "stealing my files" because, quite honestly, they are not that good. I also would never re-sale, re-distribute, or take credit for anyone elses's work however I forget sometimes that there are people out there that do. I am retired. CNC routing is a hobby for me, not a source of income. I don't even have my own machine I have to use the one at the college. My intention was to simply find a way to buy a cut file so that I could create the item for myself. To have in my own home nothing more.

Once again I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

[steve_g]

Chris

I don't think you offended anyone... just sparked open honest discussion of feelings and facts! Some, like Brady, have been around long enough to see the consequences of others actions. I personally was not aware of the 3D file hording mentality... I'll watch for and avoid this practice. Personally I've found few customers willing to pay for 3D work and have been honing my V-carve techniques and skills. I'm currently working on a V carving treatise I'll some day share here...

SG

[Brady Watson]

Chris,
No worries. No offense taken. Welcome to the ShopBot Forum.

I think this topic needs to be discussed and understood by all, so thank you for starting it. I prefer to give people straight up answers rather than sugar coated ones...and I also know that a lot of things I discussed were outside of your sphere of knowledge - so don't take what I wrote personally. I think that if I wasn't as verbose in my reply, I would be leaving out a lot of information & dancing around the proverbial elephant in the room - and that just isn't me.

-B

[bruce_taylor]

Vectric and many others have reliefs for sale, cheap and ready to cut, Most people use the machine to make things and most files are quick and custom so not much value to the people in the cnc world. The design software is so so advanced you can design most things very quickly until you get into 3d which is another animal altogether. Thats why you can buy a 3d relief pretty cheap ! Feelings are strong when it comes to people stealing other people intellectual property, like music, software etc. And you are amongst artists in this realm, You will find your imagination is the best developer and if you have a need and ask for help it is sure easy to come by on this form, I have had a great many people assist me in the past and makes me feel good about human nature when I think of the forum in todays world of so much evil. But people still need to protect what they have worked so hard to achieve, So the help is out there but you need to still do the making not just cut it out. Good luck in your adventures in cnc !

[shilala]

I'm a staunch believer in "teach a man how to fish".
There are people who wish to share of themselves freely, to share ideas, help, and the joy of collaborating is it's own reward.
I've also learned everything I've learned shopbot-related by studying very hard. I've taken job after job only to tax myself, forcing myself to learn more.
There are many here that have helped me, and for that I'm not only eternally grateful, but I'll do the best I can to pay it back tenfold over time. If someone wants my knowledge or files, they're theirs. That comes with a caveat. There are those of like mind, and there are mooches who are simply looking out for themselves. I don't mean anyone specifically here, not by any means. I'm speaking of the world at large.
One of the greatest joys in woodworking is to share what we've learned, but some simply like to take.

Brady covered a lot of things that are very important, especially in protecting one's income. It's important to be careful and protect the mouths you have to feed with your work.

Chris, you'll find who you can share with and who you can't. Eugene King and I help each other out a lot. We share our projects, knowledge and resources as brothers. He came up to hang with me for 3 days to help move him along with his software, and he taught me more than I taught him. Bottom line, for him and me, we're all in this life thing together. When I'm looking out for mine, I'm looking out for his, and vice versa. There are many, many people who are so minded, and wish to work as a group, not an exclusive entity.
I won't cast any judgement on which is better or worse, I just find myself happier in the latter. I like to look out for my brothers and have them looking out for me, and to a very large proportion, that's exactly what happens here.
In some cases there has to be a tempering, though. If my existence is on making specially designed whatsits, I can't tell everyone in the world how to make them. On the other hand, I know the gentlemen here are all talented enough to look at what I've done and recreate it at will. I just know they're not going to, or not any more than to maybe make a whatsit for the wife and maybe some family members, which is exactly why I would have shared the files in the first place.
I don't think anyone would start selling my whatsit unless they asked me first, and odds are I'd tell them to please have a go at it if it will help them out.

The moral of my story...
Listen to Brady, and temper with love, just as he does. He doesn't help people all day long because he doesn't love them. Make friends that you are like-minded with, and share your knowledge with them. We make out better as a group, because we all have something special to bring to the table. We also have to watch each other's back, just as Brady suggested.
Stick around, make friends, and learn from them. You'll be amazed at how much these fine gentlemen will teach you and share with you, but it'll take time. I can't begin to express my gratitude, it's beyond words. I'm certain you'll feel the same.