Getting business ?...

[flyboy]

I know everybody has either been in my starting out situation or is now starting out so what are some ways to go out and get work? Anybody have some good sugestions? I've heard that the rotary clubs are good. Anybody have some suggestions as well on how to price jobs..... I recently took a vacuum form mold job but there was someone inbetween myself and the customer - hence I recieve $300 on a $800 job. That's my fault, I took it because I have nothing else going. But I need to go out and get my own work. I just need some ideas of where to get started. Signs, molds, whatever.... Thanks in advance.

[tucker-52@charter.net]

Tom,

I'm not a Bothead yet, but your delima is similar to what I will be facing.

Having worked in the sign business for years, I know there is a market there to service smaller sign shops that do not have thier own CNC. Channel letters come to mind right away. Do you know what I'm talking about? A channel letter is is a metal encased neon lit letter. You see them all the time. Just go out tonight and gander at your local strip mall. They are everywhere.

Your market is to cut the "backs" of the letters, usually out of .063 aluminum, and also cut the plastic faces of the letters. Forget the sides.(Refered to in the industry as "returns") That's strictly "in-house" work. Usually the plastic faces are cut slightly larger than the aluminum backs, for fitting reasons you need not be concerned with, other than to get it right.

There are many applications in the sign business that a ShopBot can make you money with. The right software is important, but design skills are not. You will be working with thier designs. All you have to do is cut it. But if you have a flare for good design, it could lead to your own sign company in time. Who knows?

Smaller cabinet shops would also be a good source of business. I plan to pursue this as well, though I know more about signs than I do cabinets and furniture. I imagine that once you get comfortable and familiar with your machine, it won't make much difference.

As for pricing, the going rate around here is $50.00 to $75.00 per hr., depending on what you're cutting. You can make yourself more attractive to your customers by offering free pick up and delivery if that is plausible.(You pick up thier materials, take it to your shop, cut it, and deliver it.) Obviously, if they are 50 miles away from your shop, this is not a good idea.

Times are tough but they WILL get better. There is still business out there. We just gotta go get it. Hope this is of some help to you.

Mark

[bruce_clark]

Mark,

Spoken like a person who does not own a machine! Especially, the "...software is important, but design skills are not."

If you find a shop that gives you ready to machine designs, it will be a first. Any shop that does give you READY TO MACHINE files is on the verge of buying their own router.

A lot of people put too much faith in software. You still need to know how to use it to its fullest potential. The Shopbot and software are only tools. They do not know how to make signs, furnature or build houses. That is where YOU come in. Otherwise, it will just sit in your shop being under used.

Second, with the low entry cost of CNC routers (getting lower every day) this area of business will be a "short" lived one for most folks. Once a sign shop sees that they are sending out >$1000 a month for CNC router work would be foolish NOT to look into buying a router and keeping those jobs (and money) in house.

Just my two bits...

Bruce Clark

[tucker-52@charter.net]

Bruce,

Spoken like a pro! However, I beg to differ. My last employer is "typical" for a small sign shop owner. Busy as heck in a small shop with no room to install a CNC. Takes up a lot of floor space, plus you have to hire someone competent to run it.He subs it all out and still makes money. There are many out there just like him, be it good business or not.

Now, what I meant by "software is important but design skills are not" means exactly that. Sign design, I mean GOOD sign design, is done by an experienced designer who is in direct contact with the customer. You may be a master of CNC, but have a poor sense of design. Dosen't matter. Your job is to cut the material, via a file given to you by the sign shop you are subbing for. Software is important only because you need to be comfortable with it, be it Corel, TurboCad, Rhino, or whatever. Right?

Beleive me, Bruce, I am much more confused than I am knowledgeable. I have much to learn and I look forward to it. I can only speak from my own experiences in the working world and what I've been through, which leaves a lot to be desired considering what I'm fixin' to jump into. If there's no challenge, then what's the fun? If there's no profit, well....that's another post!

Mark

[rgengrave@aol.com]

If you plan on using a cnc machine to make you a good living? You better know what it can and cannot do first.

If you plan on just doing signs and small jobs that is fine but you can make more income if you know how to draw.

I had a shopbot for about 5 years and there is nothing I can’t draw and cut.

It is not fair to say what program to use because I have not tried a few out there that others are using, but in over 5 years I learned to master different programs, I am now able to make anything a customer might want or need.

I stay away from 3D items because of the time it take to cut and see no money in it as a long term job, I just do the things my machine can handle.

I use Turbocad for everything but Text, I use Coreldraw to do that.

Like Bruce said learn how to get the most out of the software you have then you will know what it can and can not do.

Me I know how something works in 1 program and how to do something in another and something in another, I just use all 3 to make my files, then when I have some free time I go and play with the software and see I can cut it down to 2 programs.

I do SIGNS-FURNITURE-ARTS & CRAFT-CABINETS and about 30 other things, I hit every Flea Market, Cabinet Shop, Furniture Company, and a whole mess of other small business, I just let them know I might be able to do the work for them at half the cost they do it for or buy if for.

Now lets say you hit 300 places? And every one of them called you 1 time a month to do some work, lets say it was only a $10.00 job, what is $10.00 x 300? Get the point.

Just my 2cents worth.

Ron V

[flyboy]

Good input. Thanks. I also just got ripped on my first job..... He verbally made a bunch of changes and then when he saw them done said that wasn't what he wanted. So I filled up my shop with dust for nothing. This guy was a Quasi-used to be friend turned jerk, obviously, so I didn't worry about formal arrangements except for %50 up front. Does everybody else use contracts? I used to own a storefront franchise and when I bought the sign the deal was in writing and everything had to be signed off a couple times. What should I put in a work order contract? Obviously I'm going to need one.

[gerald_d]

Tom, I wouldn't bother with a "work order contract" unless you have plenty of money to hire a lawyer to enforce the contract.

Mostly we work without any legal document. If the job is bigger and the client more "fidgety" we do a good CAD drawing first, or cut a scaled sample in cheaper wood and get approval on this first.

If the client is not happy with our result, he pays nothing and gets nothing. There is no half-way, or reduced price for a job that is not to his satisfaction. This stops the guys who want to nitpick to reduce the price. This is the beauty of not having a contract, you can also decide that you can walk away from a job/client.

The tricky ones are when the client has supplied the wood, then you can't withhold the job if he becomes difficult. Good drawings and samples are the way to go.

[rgengrave@aol.com]

Tom good rule of thumb is like Mayo said, me I do all the samples in foam and cost less to nothing.

When doing work for friends and relatives just remember the saying, when you loan money to them you might not get it back.

When I get an order I have the customer make me the plans, or I will draw then up and have him OK them, then cut a sample in wood or foam, I charge an up front fee of the cost of the material and no labor, this is something like a service charge.

Now after you cut the sample and the customer wants to make some changes you just make them on the drawing.

When you get the OK to do it you can ask for half up front and the rest when done, now if he refuses the order just say thank you and good bye, all you lost is you time

Now if it was a big order with many dozens I would ask for full payment up front before I started making them, the customer has seen the sample and gave the ok so if he truly wanted it he will pay for it up front.

Most of the time what happens is he wants you to do the work and then comes across someone that will do it cheaper.

Ron V

[tucker-52@charter.net]

Ron V.,

Now you've forced me to tell the truth. I made a good living for 12 years as a designer for a sign co., but I did it all the hard way....on a drafting table with a pencil and eraser. I never picked up CAD because they didn't have a computer and there was almost nothing I could not draw with a few simple tools at hand. I'm an artist by nature, but my CAD skills are nil. I have AutoCAD 2000 and a manual, but so far I've experienced nothing but frustration. Recently a friend gave me CorelDRAW 6 and "Dummies for 7", and there it sits, on my desk, glaring at me, daring me!

I guess the best thing I can do when I borrow the $$$ to set up this little enterprise, is to borrow enough to live and pay the bills for about 6 months to a year while I figure all this out and get things set.

Mark

[rgengrave@aol.com]

Mark in less then 8 hours I could have you master a shopbot with a $30.00 program, there will be nothing you can't do in 2D.

Everyone assumes you need the $$$ programs to make files, only thing I know of that will cost you $$$$ is doing 3D files, this will start out at $900.00 to $10,000.00 for the software + you will need to learn how to draw 3D if you plan on using other software.

In the last 2 months I had 5 shopbotter come to me for training and they now have no questions and can do anything in 2D with a $30.00 program.

There is nothing hard about making files so never think it will take you 6 months to learn, you should see what shopbotters send me to draw for them, it takes minutes and not hours like they said they spent trying to do it.

Ron V