any info on this brand of cnc?

[Davo]

They have them on Craigslist for an excellent price, they include a ton of features.

They appear to be huge stout machines, I know someone who is getting one so if they work well this may be the next one I get.


http://www.cnc-warehouse.com/CM-1212_CNC_Router.html

[harryball]

It would have to be REALLY cheap before I'd touch it.

Solid cast Iron gantry = HEAVY and all ramps will have to be slow to accommodate the momentum
T-Slot Table Shown = not included
Machines pre-checked State side = I bet they are
Max moving speed is 8000 mm/min = 315 in/min = just over 5 in/sec. That's the MAX move speed... plan on never cutting over 3 in/sec and with those slow corner speeds I predict it would double my current cut times.
Water cooled spindle = nope, not interested.

Now, Chinese made would be my guess. Let me tell you something about China manufacturing. Welding and Steel is CHEAP. There are companies there that will duplicate anything made out of large plate steel CHEAP, very CHEAP. If a backhoe frame made here costs $6000 there it will run about $1000 to make there. The guys sit on cement blocks, use all manner of wood blocks, clamps, clothespins and weld often without masks or gloves and accuracy during assembly means you can grind off the excess and it still fit. Large companies like Cat, Dannmar etc... have some quality control over the manufacture and have long term contracts and even they have serious problems at times. These small knockoff companies have no quality control to speak of, once it reaches the US it has to be adjusted and often cut free and re-welded.

I know about this. I was asked to be involved in a up-start company manufacturing a hospital beds to compete in the US market. A major hospital flooring company was going to back it and I was asked to join the engineering team back in 2005. I checked it out and we received a dozen beds from the manufacturer in China. Those were perfect (samples) of what the plant could produce. These were to complete with Hill-Rom and Stryker the only two major bed mfgs. Those beds start at $15k new and up from there. Well, when we investigated the plant in China the above is what we found. They were making backhoe frames, lift frames, hospital bed frames and more all in the same place. The guy welding the beds had no helmet and was blind except when the welding arc was active... the point of all this is don't expect quality in this large chunk of steel. Our subsequent "production" beds were less than perfect. I bowed out on the opportunity. So far as I know, those beds may still be sitting in a room at Georgia Tech where the incubator program was going to house the new company. They did go on to build the hand washing reminder appliance that some hospitals are using, but the bed program was abandoned.

IMHO, for a new CNC'er my advice is "Run Forrest, Run!"

But that's my opinion based on my experience.

/RB

[2006prt]

A buddy of mine has a similar Chinese machine sitting in his granite shop. He has had it for at least 6 months and can only move it around with the pendant. It isn't functioning as it should, not because the hardware doesn't work but because the software and user interface is difficult and support is difficult. How good is the deal if you can not use it. I bought a used shopbot for the same money he paid for his machine. His may look more rugged than mine but mine works well and makes me money.

[Brady Watson]

Here's my honest opinion on the matter:
That machine looks decent from a hardware and electronics standpoint. I can't really see the chassis, so can't comment about that. It has ballscrews and HiWin rails, which are both pretty good. The drives and motors are good.

There are a few sources of contention for me when I see these types of posts and machines:

1) The fact that it is Chinese specifically, means nothing to me. However, the bulk of the components aren't made here in the USA (I be willing to bet none or very little are) - and that means taking food out of your fellow man's mouth. I hate unions as a general rule, but some of their original intentions were noble. Exporting money from this country for big ticket items that we pretty much invented as a society really ticks me off.

When I was in the union I, and my fellow workers, were FORBIDDEN from driving a foreign car. You'd be booted on sight. No joke. There is something to be said for that principle as it relates to loving your country and doing your patriotic duty. You cannot have a full discussion about this subject without bringing politics into it because that is the sort of thing that has made USA machines (and most things) less competitive than imports. The numbers are skewed in the import's favor. In today's society it's all just a big free-for-all with morality, honor and patriotism completely out the window. That is sad. There are WAY more people not working right now than you might imagine.

As far as I know currently, only the spindles (Italian) and stepper motors/drives (Japan) are imported components on a ShopBot. Everything else is made here by your fellow countrymen. There are probably a few exceptions, but the majority of the components on these tools are made here.

2) Who are you going to call for support? Do they speak your language? Is there a true line of accountability if things go wrong? What hours are support available? Is there a professional forum or is it like the wild west where most answers end in arguments - 49 pages deep? I've gone out to plenty of shops running XYZ brand hardware with Mach as the control software because support just pointed the finger at the PC. The customer couldn't get what he needed from the Mach forum or CNCZone & he was desperate to get into production. Here's a guy trying to save a buck only to shoot himself in the foot with no support. Everything has a price. What's downtime costing per hour?

3) I find it in bad taste to pose such a question on the ShopBot Forum - This would be like asking about a Mitsubishi on a Ford sponsored forum. It's a bit audacious.

-B

[Simops]

Here's my honest opinion on the matter:

There are a few sources of contention for me when I see these types of posts and machines:
- and that means taking food out of your fellow man's mouth. I hate unions as a general rule, but some of their original intentions were noble. Exporting money from this country for big ticket items that we pretty much invented as a society really ticks me off.
-B

Amen to that!
Australia has just about lost its manufacturing base. We have allowed cheap Chinese imports to basically decimate the manufacturing industry here. It's too late now to ramp up tooling and manufacture here plus the loss of those skills. We are now slaves of the Chinese import. If the Chinese stopped importing to here Australia would fall apart!!!��
Cheers

[Davo]

Brady - like you said there is no support for those types of machines so there is no place for me to ask these types of questions other than this forum, since I currently own a shop bot and they have the reputation that they do I figured this is the best place to ask because you guys have a lot of experience with this.

Poor taste or not if anything it makes shop bot look that much better but people can also learn valuable information about quality.

I would assume all information is valuable for CNC not just information that has a shop bot logo on it, I would rather keep my questions here instead of joining 1000 different forums

But thanks for the information I agree 100% with everything you said which is exactly why I wanted to ask y'all guys opinion y'all have the knowledge

[richards]

I agree with Brady on this. The specs (what little are published) don't look bad. The "jog" speed is slow and the "cut" speed is even slower, but with the correct cutter and the correct feed speed, most materials could be handled. The big QUESTION to me is who is going to support you? Who is going to help you get the machine running? Who is going to help you work out all of the "bugs"? Who is going to help you get your idea into the computer and out through the CNC program?

Unless you know how to install and use MACH, run as fast as you can away from that machine. Even if you know how to run MACH, can you modify it to do exactly what you want it to do?

I'm a programmer. I've been a programmer since I bought my first IMSAI (when the original Altair was released). I know my way around computers and programming, but I would never encourage anyone to use MACH if he had the choice of using SB3 instead. SB3 allowed me to do anything that I could think of that was within the limits of my 2004 Alpha machine. It was a joy to use. (I have more than a little experience running MACH 3 from my test bench. It's a good program, but it is not user friendly. You'll need an excellent pre-router program to make MACH usable.)

I would have welcomed the linear rails and the ball screws on my Alpha. They would have reduced or eliminated the "chatter" that was a serious problem, but after upgrading to a belt-drive gearbox and then after I installed the 7.2:1 geared Alpha motors that Shopbot provided, most of the chatter was eliminated.

Final advice, if you know exactly what you're doing and if you know G-code inside out and if you are both mechanically and electrically inclined and if you like troubleshooting complex machines, you might find the CM-1212 interesting, but if you want to USE the machine from day one, just buy a Shopbot.

[danhamm]

The best part of "shopbot" and its continued success is the shopbot forum, my first machine was 1998/1999 a angle strut machine and my last new one was in 2006 just before the prs design and a couple of used ones after that.
But I have drifted away the last few years.