Problem with glue and water based clear coats

[kevin]

This was a thread about canister contact cement

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forum...pl?read=774323

Also I use only water based mainly i like my brain cells .But its also easier to apply .I only had a problem one time

Water based clear coat is superior to lacquer i can write more why water based is more production friendly below is a graft written 12 years ago .When using a product do your own research find out why its the best NEVER ASK A SALESMAN
I've had a couple of failures on my own projects trying new things
Is Water Based Tough Enough ?

To demonstrate the hardness and durability of clear water-based finishes, Hydrocote conduced a Sward Hardness test to compare Water based Polyurethane to solvent-based nitrocellulose lacquer and oil based polyurethane.
The finishes were sprayed on metal plates and the films were subjected to abrasion from a swinging stainless steel pendulum at interval during the course of a week.

The chart to the right shows the hardness developed of the four products tested. The hardness values given are based on 1.5 mil film allowed to dry at 76�F and 45% relative humidity (Scale: Hardness of glass =100) .

One important note on the test. Water based Polyurethane doesn't reach its full strength until after 30 days. This test was done 4 years ago water based is a lot stronger now.
Hardness: Water-Based vs. Solvent Based

Drying Times	Oil based Polyurethane	Water based Polyurethane	Nitro-Cellulose Lacquer
1 hr	15	3	20
2 hrs	27	8	27
8 hrs	38	22	30
24 hrs	40	42	30
48 hrs	43	56	30
1Week	45	63	30

[Burkhardt]

Maybe I should try that again. I used water based PU varnish many years ago on some projects that are exposed to the sun and they all turned grey after a few years. Never tried that again. Similar surfaces with oil based PU usually just darken/yellow over time. But probably not all coatings are alike and I forgot which brand I used back then.

[jerry_stanek]

Years ago I installed fixture for Revco Drug stores and Toledo Store Fixture switched to water based contact glue and every store they shipped out the glue failed. Had to go in and reglue the cabinets. real pain in the a$$.

[dlcw]

The one thing I worry about is elasticity of the finish when cured. As we all know wood moves. Can't stop it. I use MLCampbell Duravar conversion varnish and have never had a problem with the finish being able to accommodate the wood movement. I tried water based finishes a few years back and had some projects come back that the finish had cracked on large surfaces (tables). I'm assuming it was wood movement. I stripped the water based finish off and applied conversion varnish and have had no problems.

Is there something I'm missing with water based finishes?

[Sk8MFG]

We use water based clear coats exclusively in our skateboard manufacturing. Wonderful stuff.

[Ajcoholic]

Is there something I'm missing with water based finishes?

No you are not missing anything, lol. If you are using conversion varnish then you`re at the top of the woodworking finish chain, so to speak, already.

As you probably know, Conversion varnishes and Post-Cat Lacquers are still the tops in furniture coatings.

If water based product was superior - then all the big manufacturers would be switching. However, in many cases shops are forced to switch for environmental reasons or others. I know some smaller shops like mine, who just dont have the space for a proper paint booth and use water borne finishes since they cant spray a solvent based safely.

If you read the trade magazines and specifically follow whats going on in the world of finishes - the water borne lacquers and urethanes have come a long way in the past 20 odd years. Some of the catalyzed water based finishes are supposed to be really, really good. BUT... solvent based is still KING..

Im not trying to argue Kevin, but this is according to what I know.

As for contact cements, that might be a different story.

[kevin]

"Varathane" Diamond Latex Finish that's what i used

I discovered the above product in 1992. I was working on a kitchen, refinishing it, and a customer used the product for a cabinet side with a foam roller. At the time, i was using oil based clear coat with a $20.00 brush. I could immediately see the benefits of water based and I was hooked. Easy to work with especially on site renovations.
Fast forward to 1997, took a job in aircraft in aircraft interiors. Before that aircraft interiors were done with chroma clear which is an automotive clear coat. The company had a contract to do 36 planes. The clear coat the company was switching over to was polyester. I never worked with it nor did anybody else. I saw lots of failures on aircrafts mainly with rosewood, zebra wood, teak, the oily woods. Sometimes when looking at the bulkhead, the clear coat looked like it was going to come right off as just one sheet. The first year of working there, I seemed to get sick a little more. The second year, they would close the aircraft hanger doors in September and it would take me until December for my immune system to start working. The third year was the same thing. I put 2 and 2 together and quickly realized that this was obviously hurting my health but we were also exposed to high silica.
I left in 2000 to start my own business in Montreal, i quickly went to water based clear coat. I have not had 1 failure. The drawback is you have to be skilled at spraying. As for the other furniture manufacturers, I presented a graph above. Remember the basic chemistry for all 3 clear coats are the same. Nobody has really reinvented the wheel. They perfected it but it is still the same chemistry. As for thinking that: "OK! I have a great spray booth and all the fumes are leaving my shop", as soon as you finish spraying, as it is curing it is give off gases. Even when you covered up spraying, it can go through your eyes.
Furniture or anybody has ever used water based on any production are quickly realizing they are not being forced and that it is an easier product to work with. I use quartz lighting in my spray booth. It dries faster than we can keep up with.
Myths of water based, it does not turn yellow. It is ideal for maple or holly and keeping it natural. It will not warp doors. If it is warping doors, you have bigger problems.
With all clear coats, your shop has to be a minimum of 65 degrees. As for trade magazines, do your own research. Most of those magazines are written by guys who have never worked a day in their lives in a cabinet shop who are interviewing salesmen promoting their products.
My health is good, I don't think I had any long term damage. Before 1992, I sprayed oil, I have a long history.
On failures be name time and product

Either you can be an innovator or a follower.


All polished 12 coats




Foam brush 2002 all water based

[Kyle Stapleton]

We work a lot will oak and try to stay way from the water based do to the fact that it raises the grain so much. Is there a water based product that we can use that will not raise the grain and make use have to re-sand our project?

[jTr]

Have sprayed hundreds of gallons of water-based and solvent based finishes.

Numerous nightmares/complications with water based finish:
- Excessive coats needed to achieve a smooth surface - even with maple (veneer panels) due to grain-raise
- Very sensitive to atmospheric conditions - one day it dries in a flash, two weeks later, humidity has changed and now it's sagging/running
- Oak + high humidity= fish hook finish = 5 or more coats and excessive hours sanding
- Cherry - turns grey/green under water-based finishes
- High humidity location caused softening / peeling on a bath cabinet

I have a neighbor who has successfully converted to water based, but only finishes trims/doors flat. He refuses to spray furniture as I do, because of the difficulty laying down precisely the right coating thickness on complex surfaces.

Love this planet almost as much as my lungs, but got tired of working my fingers to the bone and burning through 1.5 times the amount of product to get acceptable results.

Conclusion: Really wish I could make it work and struggled for several years with different products and bought several of the latest & greatest spray equipment. Perhaps UV curing equipment is the answer to locking down that first coat or two before the grain can swell. Sadly, for now, I am unable to commit to water-based finishes.

[waynelocke]

I grew up around refineries and hit my petroleum quota early. I used to use an oil varnish wipe on but switched to water based in the mid 80's. The finishes are much better now but I don't think that I have ever had a finish failure on a delivered piece though I have certainly had my share of dammit moments in the shop. I have also done conference tables without issue.

I have always sanded after the sealer coat, even before the water based came along and that takes care of the grain raising. I use oak all of the time th water based and have no issue after sanding the seal coat. The grain raising should only be an issue with the sealer coat. After that the water base is not hitting bare wood.

I don't consider myself a great sprayer and sand out most finishes, especially table tops. I use 400, 1000, 2000, and 4000 grits and get a great looking rubbed out looking satin finish. For glossy I buff the surface. The surface is much nicer that straight from the gun.

In my experience, I use General commercial finishes, the water based is clear and doesn't yellow. I have also used the water based two part catalyzed finishes.

Bottom line...I don't miss the solvent at all.