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Thread: Problem with glue and water based clear coats

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
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    Harbour Grace Newfoundland
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    771

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    Wayne his formula is right on
    We sand between coats 320 takes about 4 coats there no way around it even with solvent .I want to switch to General i can get at wood essence in Canada

    I won't use imported veneer period .We had separation or lifting which is good to happen in the shop not on site .Water base can be the canary in the coal mine .Always better to happen in shop
    I only use Columbia forest products had one seem lift fixed no problem

    On vertical i spray with 1.5 tip a trick i use is spray wait 10 mins let it get tacky then spray another coat I do this on the final never had a run .Great equipment at spray gun world
    I was fortunate at the airport to work with a master told me more tricks then i can remember .Lacquer yes you can spray blind folded .But polyester is hard to spray like water based


    High humidity can leave a haze but goes away after full cure does not affect finish
    Oak is a pain if you want a water flat smooth finish use grain filler also great for walnut etc

    All finishes will shrink when fully cured

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Timmins, Ontario, Canada
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    1,825

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    I dont consider myself "a follower" lol. I have tried many finishing products from several of the bigger companies, and have always gone back to Canadian made post cat lacquer, from John E. Goudey's in Toronto. Based on my own testing it is still the best finish I have used, for furniture and cabinet work. For a "small" custom shop, weve turned over at least 200+ kitchens, too many tables & chairs, etc to count. My finish is MY livelihood. And I can say with complete honesty, I can count on a few fingers how many finishing issues we have had in the past 25 years weve been using post cat laquer.

    Some of the other tradespeople I know in the woodworking business like a certain brand of finish - but the vast majority still consider a solvent based pc lacquer or a cv the better finish, in all around use (application) and durability etc. afterwards.

    I recall back in the mid 90's when I was finishing college - we did some extensive testing on some water based wood finsihes that the companies selling them were claiming as superior to the staples of the industry. Well, they failed miserably in our testing (standarized finish tests). I know, again, from speaking regularly to others in the business, that water based product is getting better all the time. BUT... and again, this is my opinion and that of many, many in the business - it is still not "better" than solvent based.

    I recently had a discussion with one of my finishing suppliers who sell both materials. He also agreed that water based is not yet "there". However, things might force out the solvent based materials in the next 10, 15 years (no real time line) and we all might have to use water based some day whether we want to or not.

    As far as health concerns go - with proper facilities and PPG - you should not have any issues.

    Those of us who have decided what works best for us do so for many reasons. My posts are more to give the newer guys another opinion - and that is before you decide what might be best for you, talk to several suppliers of both materials, talk to reps from the companies who make the product, go to trade shows and talk to people - and most importantly talk to guys who make furniture/cabinets/millwork for a living and see what they have to say. Then make a decision on what product to choose...

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
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    Timmins, Ontario, Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    .Lacquer yes you can spray blind folded
    I find this statement quite hard to understand... Ive been spraying at least a few days a week now since 95' (and started spraying in around 90'). I consider myself pretty good. However, spraying furniture - chairs, tables, cabinetry with varying openings. etc is what I would consider a skill no matter WHAT you are spraying. LAcquers are very forgiving once you get the mix right, and get the gun and pot set up. But, if you can spray with your eyes closed, I will hire you tomorrow for a very good wage! lol.

    Anything flat is easy. Larger vertical surfaces are pretty much a no brainer. But when you have to spray things like a completed railing, etc and you have to attack it from various angles and up down, etc it takes a lot of experience.

    I find chairs pne of the most difficult to get "perfect". And if youre spraying tinted coats, then you really better know what youre doing...

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Harbour Grace Newfoundland
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    771

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    Andrew go out and buy a gallon and try it your self then post your experience and try polyester at the same time .


    "I recently had a discussion with one of my finishing suppliers who sell both materials. He also agreed that water based is not yet "there". However, things might force out the solvent based materials in the next 10, 15 years (no real time line) and we all might have to use water based some day whether we want to or no"

    Asking a salesman who is not a chemist is not the best person for advise

    There a lot of wife's tales about water based made out of hear say not facts or experience
    Heath money can't buy as I get older i know deep down you will pay .Sucking lacquer fumes through a bag will kill brain cells there is no debate on health

    One of the big plus for water based s that it will last 5 years longer than lacquer I've seen first hand .Mainly because water based will burn off as solvent will peel off .

    Is the graft wrong ?

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    near Atlanta, Georgia
    Posts
    117

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    Kevin - Sorry for being a word 'nazi' but what you have posted is a GRAPH, nor a graft, technically a bar graph.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    ny
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    834

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    Thanks for bringing this subject up I have used water base on floors and it works better than solvent finishes in my experience, have even sprayed furniture and it worked out well. But I have been using solvent based lacquer mostly, I will give it a try on some of the live edge tables I have been making for inventory. The less nasty stuff in the shop the better.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Kennebunkport, Maine
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    4,419

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    Slightly off topic, But both our shops are VERY small and not set up at all for lacquer fumes so we leave the shop the few times we have to use Laq(Deft/Watco Brushing Lacquer).
    Just ordered this to test and Totally ignorant
    ANY idea of dry times before I sand and put carpet tape on the blanks? NOT the actual finish and will be sanded off.
    Any tips on using this on exotics like Padauk/Bloodwood/Purpleheart?
    MIGHT it make a "dipping" finish ?
    Sorry for interrupting thread.
    https://generalfinishes.com/retail-p...turners-finish
    scott
    scott P.
    2013 Desktop/spindle/VCP 11.5**
    Maine

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
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    Timmins, Ontario, Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    Andrew go out and buy a gallon and try it your self then post your experience and try polyester at the same time .


    "I recently had a discussion with one of my finishing suppliers who sell both materials. He also agreed that water based is not yet "there". However, things might force out the solvent based materials in the next 10, 15 years (no real time line) and we all might have to use water based some day whether we want to or no"

    Asking a salesman who is not a chemist is not the best person for advise

    There a lot of wife's tales about water based made out of hear say not facts or experience
    Heath money can't buy as I get older i know deep down you will pay .Sucking lacquer fumes through a bag will kill brain cells there is no debate on health

    One of the big plus for water based s that it will last 5 years longer than lacquer I've seen first hand .Mainly because water based will burn off as solvent will peel off .

    Is the graft wrong ?
    Kevin, now I will say you are grasping at straws. We have kitchens done in the 80's from customers I see regularly that are in pristine shape. And that was with a pre cat lacquer we were using before switching to post cat around 88 or 89. Peeling is generally caused by improper prep work on the wood or something with an incompatability with stains etc. Peeling is definitley NOT an issue with a properly prepped and applied lacquer. No matter how long.


    I have dining room tables out there in heavy use that look brand new 20 yrs out. I have never had any issues with finish peeling that I know of. Doing 90% of my work in the local community I certainly hear about any issues that come up, trust me. Our reputation is built on our quality and service and I have done free repairs on work my father did in the 70's (not finish related, lol).

    I do talk to chemists - and every other person I can. Please, I have been in this business maybe not quite as long as you but long enough -and I do think I am very knowledgeable and I am not "easily sold" onto a salesman's slick talk.

    I am entitled to my opinions as well as anyone - and I appreciate your reasons for using a water borne product. I simply dont agree with some of the things you say, and I am entitled to that as well I believe.

    We used to do a LOT of hardwood floors. I dont touch many now, I would rather be building furniture. We used to use a moisture cure urethane that was super tough and very expensive, and was very smelly (the people would have to leave the home). Once we tried the water based Varathane (diamond finish) and boy oh boy it was no where near as tough as that urethane. No way no how.

    And to clear things up for some who might not know - be aware that there are three familes of lacquers. Straight nitrocellulose - which is the original, air drying kind that is soft and not water resistant, easily scratched etc. It is the stuff they sell in hardware stores.

    Next in the line up is a pre catalyzed lacquer which is formulated with a hardener - and usually has a limited shelf life. It is a much tougher version which has greater scratch resistance, resistance to staining and houshold chemicals, etc.

    The top of the lacquer "food chain" is post catalysed - which is a synthetic lacquer to which an acid hardener is added before you spray. It has a very short pot life (usually a day or less). It is thye toughest and best in terms of wear, etc.

    The conversion varnishes are a similar product in the urethane family - and are supposed to be even more wear resistant but have some different characteristics as well.

    If you are comparing something to "lacquer", make sure it is a post cat lacquer as that is the stuff to use if you are looking for the best durability and hardness.

    On that note I will refrain from further posts on this topic. I think I have expressed my opinions clear enough.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Pickering, Ontario, Canada
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    43

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    As a fellow Canadian I am smiling ear to ear at my two bothers. Both Kevin and Andrew represent what it means to be Canadian. We are polite, courteous and typically quite reserved but if offend something we are passionate about, God can't help you. We will rip out your heart and eat it for dinner.
    The best part of being Canadian is we have a choice to use what we want. To each his own boys!

    Regards
    Mark
    Regards
    Mark Owen
    Woodpecker Manufacturing

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Timmins, Ontario, Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Owen View Post
    As a fellow Canadian I am smiling ear to ear at my two bothers. Both Kevin and Andrew represent what it means to be Canadian. We are polite, courteous and typically quite reserved but if offend something we are passionate about, God can't help you. We will rip out your heart and eat it for dinner.
    The best part of being Canadian is we have a choice to use what we want. To each his own boys!

    Regards
    Mark
    OK one more but nothing to do with the "topic"..

    I agree Mark - we should be all able to express our own likes, dislikes and passions in an adult manner without getting our personal feelings hurt.

    For the record I admire everything Kevin has posted of his work and really think his shop turns out top notch stuff - both in design and construction. I am thankful to have a place (this forum) to discuss our trade and it's issues, with such a great group of people. Sincerely!

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