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Thread: Problem with glue and water based clear coats

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Piedmont, SD
    Posts
    653

    Default WARNING: 4 coats of pre-cat solvent can = DISASTER

    "We sand between coats 320 takes about 4 coats there no way around it even with solvent"

    In keeping with the spirit of Andrew's message, I must clarify for those newly venturing into pro-grade levels of finishing, 4 coats is not typical for solvent based finishes, and is plainly discouraged if you follow directions on any can of "pre" or "post" catalyzed topcoat.


    Solvent based topcoats that employ an acid catalyst WILL CRACK EVENTUALLY if applied too thick, which is why going beyond 3 coats is flirting with disaster. These are cross-linking finishes that will continue to pull molecules together, and if dry-film thickness is exceeded, they literally tear themselves apart, given enough time.

    And please understand, just because water-born finishes don't smell bad doesn't mean they're good for you - read the directions and wear a respirator, especially if spraying.

    So ...

    Point #1: AHA! solvent based finishes are not perfect either!!!
    Point #2: Costs associated by increased volume and sanding labor is very wasteful, regardless the product being used,in my opinion.
    Point #3: Just re-visited the MSDS sheet on the CAB Acrylic conversion finish I use - Yikes! I'd quit this stuff today if I could. (Hopefully a safer, high quality/ high performer presents itself soon!)

    I welcome future opportunities to do myself and the planet a favor and try new products as chemistry advances, provided the results are in harmony with my quality and efficiency standards. I am required to run my business with this level of responsibility, as my clients are relying on me to be here for a good long time, ready and able to provide the quality and value they've grown to expect. This is the same for all the other passionate, talented craftsmen who've engaged in this discourse, and well beyond. I too am grateful this discussion was initiated - many very good points have been posted and should be weighed seriously by anyone wishing to advance their finishing processes.

    If it was easy, everybody would be doing it!

    jeff

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Timmins, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    1,825

    Default

    Jeff,
    Every finish I have used specifies what the dry finished film thickness should be. A wet film generally will dry at 1/4 to 1/3 the thickness, since my lacquer is around 35% solids out of the pail, and thinned out to probably 25% solids. Spraying a 4 mil wet coat ends up somewhere in the 1 mil dry range - so 4 coats gets you where I want to be.

    The number of coats is slightly confusing as it also depends upon what/how you spray. For instance, in winters here (which are brutally cold) my shop stays around 60 to 64 F). I mix a lot more thinners in my lacquer to get the proper viscosity to spray, than when it is 90F in the summer months (briefly!). Therefore I end up spraying a few more coats in the winter due to the fact I am applying less solids per coat.


    Yes, if you build up a thicker finish you certainly can increase the likelihood of cracking! That is the price we pay for a harder, more durable finish - you give up flexibility.

    Too little or too much is not good. I would assume that is the case for any wood finish.

    I always said, as a small custom wood shop - the finishing aspect of my business is the most difficult to master, and also what can ruin an otherwise outstanding piece of work. A great finish on a piece of garbage wont make it look better. But a poor finish on a great piece otherwise still looks horrible.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Timmins, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    1,825

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jTr View Post
    [I]
    If it was easy, everybody would be doing it!

    jeff
    Amen! I wish I could buy one of those spraying robots..

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Harbour Grace Newfoundland
    Posts
    771

    Default

    Jeff good point I realize spraying water base is still charcoal filter mask.This is a good topic sometimes we get to comfortable we have to look around also a look at solvent

    Andrew I have nothing but respect weather where Canadians or not .To keep your door open as a small shop takes a lot of faith.I hope to have the tools Andrew has {he who dies with the most tool wins} .

    Still suck at typing its very hard for me i try to give back in the sprite of Joe

    Scott that finish look easy to work with look on you tube .I think padding can work give an amazing finish

    Brain what I like about about water base is we do a lot built ins we use 6 inch crown no matter how good you are at at the cuts there still sanding to cut the edge.We use a foam brush after install the crown look like one piece no lines what so ever.Same with base and under mount


    Wayne i will switch to General any thoughts on these as a one two combo also any other comments good or bad ?.

    http://www.woodessence.com/Enduro-Sa...r-P215C61.aspx


    http://www.woodessence.com/Enduro-Pr...e-P190C61.aspx

    New spray gun looking at all stainless steel interior .Love using 2.5 gallon pressure set up just drop a gallon in
    http://www.spraygunworld.com/product...itHVLPHTE.html

    Last edited by kevin; 03-21-2015 at 08:39 PM.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Kennebunkport, Maine
    Posts
    4,076

    Default

    Thanks Kevin,
    Play with it next week
    scott
    Scott Plaisted
    2013 Desktop/spindle/VCP 9
    Maine

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Harbour Grace Newfoundland
    Posts
    771

    Default

    I figure I'll finish these post .Why I stared this post was I was in the process of doing a yacht I wanted to move up a bit in clear coat also look around .

    I received the new gun from spray gun world second gun from them they never failed this gun is simply amazing .The most I was impressed is the fan control .

    You can see in the photo the shop is now General finish I believe post-cat is over kill for kitchen cabinet what I 'm looking for is flex moving with the wood on site touch ups .I don't kid my self I have to use protect from the fumes

    I don't care about the customer there not my friends .I'll do whats right for the job PERIOD that I take deadly serious

    So now i need a scheduled [SHAKER DOORS WHITE] for the yacht the uv from the windows bouncing from the water are a concern .I don't want any yellowing just crystal clear white but I don't want scuffing that can happen with latex white paint so I approached General below this what they said

    What is the purpose of this request?
    doing a boat interior in white want to use Enduro Pigmented Polyurethane then final with Exterior 450 Clear Varnish i need a finish for high humidity and keep paint white Please let me know of better system buying thought wood they told me to contact to find best method

    Exterior 450 over any of our whites will give it a slight amber tone.
    What would work better would be our Snow White Milk Paint followed by our High Performance Poly. As long as it’s the interior and not get constantly wet you should be ok.

    Rob Szwedo
    General Finishes
    T 800-783-6050 F 262-642-4707
    2462 Corporate Circle East Troy WI 53120

    So I follow the advise I'll use 2 coat of primer first will give a solid white .All cabinet made for the boat will start in few weeks the wood work we have till August

    Its degavu in the
    late 90's did an aircraft interior in white same system using polyester went yellow then pink total nightmare. So this time I'm ready with oil or lacquer this job would be a nightmare

    I'll keep posting pictures as the job goes along I encourage other pros to post there project .What helped a lot is doing sign work [asking fro help]they are the most creative in my opion

    All above post is my experience
    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Harbour Grace Newfoundland
    Posts
    771

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Clayton, NC
    Posts
    439

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin View Post
    more pictures
    Those look like something out of Star Trek!
    Daniel E.
    ShopBot PRS 48x96 (2010 Model)
    Porter Cable Router
    Vacuum Table w/ 2 Fein vacs
    Aspire 9.0

    What I do when I don't mess up wood: http://www.pathhome.net

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Harbour Grace Newfoundland
    Posts
    771

    Default

    I finished the yacht we did 4 bedrooms kitchen etc
    I used some of the things i learned here the windows where done with exteria one piece on the cnc they worked out well there where 14 windows .The window are a high moisture area with hot and cold .At first the owners didn't see it my way on a lot of thing but realized water based was the way to go .I didn't have the budget for polyester
    The ship will be leaving in a few days for the Bahamas its for sale .It was a great project yes it was stressful i was 7 days a week for a while
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Harbour Grace Newfoundland
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    771

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