Post cat lacquer VS conversion varnish

[Ajcoholic]

Just thought I'd ask this here, as there has to be someone else who has gone through this before..

We have been spraying a post catalyzed lacquer (John E Goudey's Beautylac III, a Canadian made product) for about 25 years now.

When I was a teenager we switched from a pre-cat, to a post cat and have never looked back. I believe the finish we use is a very good product, and on furniture, we have never had any issues. On cabinetry (kitchens and vanities) I have noticed that long term, there have been a few call backs to touch up some doors/fronts around the sink mainly. I believe it is to do with long term water damage, or moisture getting under a scratchy and lifting the finish around either a scratch or a worn through area.

I have wanted to try a conversion varnish - being told that they are "better" in terms of adhesion and also durability when it comes to moisture resistance.

To be fair, on tables (even my own dining table which was built in 2006) I leave sweating glasses and moisture all the time, without issues. I think the moisture has to get under the finish to cause a lifting failure.

Anyhow, I am trying some Valspar vinyl sealer, and their conversion varnish that is recommended for kitchen cabinetry. I am a little nervous - after using a product I spray hundreds of gallons a year on for decades - to try a new finish. I am spraying a small job - a fridge cabinet and pantry - with the CV. We'll see how it goes. I sealed things today and will spray the top coat(s) Monday.

The main plus of the CV over the PCL that I can see it that it is more solids, and requires one to two top coats over the single sealer coat - vs the two or three lacquer top coats I usually put on over the sealer. Plus if it is more moisture resistant and has better adhesion as they say.

Disadvantage is it costs more, requires scuff sanding between each coat (I generally spray my lacquer within a window that doesnt need to be scuff sanded as it is still active) regardless of how quick you re-coat.

I also think from what Ive read, that CV is less tolerant of inaccurate catalyst ratios, down to even 1/2%.

The CV does have a longer pot life after mixing, claimed to be 48 hrs. vs the 16 for my current product.

Anyhow - anyone who has used both types of finish, and cares to comment I'd love to hear what you have to say.

Thanks!

PS the PCL is a great product and I am generally reluctant to change unless there is a noticeable benefit. From what the tech guys I spoke to, and salesman have to say, what I am using now is garbage, and the Valspar CV is amazing. I dont like that, since I know from experience what I am using is far from garbage.

[kevin]

Andrew i don't think lacquer is garbage but you are limited in certain situations .With all cat there is human error I've seen polyester shrink in aircraft interiors l mean lots of planes we did .This is a good time to look around yes water there is lots more work meaning i always sand between coats
Check out www.woodessence.com you also need on site clear coat for molding .The rest about soilds etc is over kill on kitchen doors you need a finish that can expand and contract let the wood breath

Also its no joke I have no more tolerance to chemical I get head aches.I was on the yaht where were working on they where painting with the same paint as they used in aircraft .2 days I came home with head aches just not right its no coincidence .I alo get head aches if exposed to fine dust like mdf .You talk to people about these you'll get all kind of answer health etc .Ask your wife the hard question
As a cabinetmaker where exposed to a lot dust .i see in your shop you take it seriously i think you have all power hookup

[dlcw]

Been using MLCampbell Durava conversion varnish for about 8 years now. Have never had a callback on furniture or cabinetry. I even put it on a set of Douglas Fir interior doors (HEAVY, HEAVY use) I did for a hotel in BC, Canada and have not had an issue.

I only warrant finishes for 1 year from delivery. I've seen what people do to furniture and cabinetry and don't want to be called back in 8 years saying the finish is wearing or there is water damage. That's a service I provide (at $60/hr) to do.

[jTr]

Andrew,
I've tried conversion varnish produced by Sherwin-Williams on some commercial dining tables. Unfortunately, no experience / feedback from service is possible, as the business closed after first year. What I can say is that it looked terribly lumpy at the outset, but after a few days, settled in fairly well. Always concerned about repairs down the road, as almost nothing adheres after curing.

My current favorite is an "Acrylic Conversion Coating" from Sherwin-williams, (T77-F-6X). It is a C.A.B. acrylic. Five gallon buckets are catalyzed at the store upon ordering (or by end user if you don't mind stocking a quart of catalyst), and good for 5-6 months shelf life.

Pluses to note:
- Optimal build and leveling with no reduction needed.
- Cured and ready for packaging within 4 hours(!)
- Non-yellowing, as it is an acrylic, making it "optimal for pickling and light pastels" I've had no issues laying over flat latex base coats that have been glazed and need a clear, non-yellowing top coat to seal it all in.
- Optimal heat and water resistance
- Self-sealing with one to two subsequent coats maximum.
- On Walnut- greatly reduces it's tendency to amber up over the years, particularly when compared to pre-cats and nitrocellulose based products.
- Recently found Mohawk offers a CAB Acrylic touch-up aerosol. It does burn into this product, as opposed to standard lacquer aerosol touch-ups, which do not adhere and can be easily peeled off.

I imagine the post varnishes may be measurably more durable, but always concerned about future maintenance, and find the trade off for a less fussy product is more advantageous, especially now that I can retouch.

From what the tech guys I spoke to, and salesman have to say, what I am using now is garbage

Hearsay is irrelevant compared to your extensive personal experience with the product you currently use. I find most times a machine or product is scoffed at, the real issue is improper use or application.

Best of luck,

Jeff

[Ajcoholic]

Been using MLCampbell Durava conversion varnish for about 8 years now. Have never had a callback on furniture or cabinetry. I even put it on a set of Douglas Fir interior doors (HEAVY, HEAVY use) I did for a hotel in BC, Canada and have not had an issue.

I only warrant finishes for 1 year from delivery. I've seen what people do to furniture and cabinetry and don't want to be called back in 8 years saying the finish is wearing or there is water damage. That's a service I provide (at $60/hr) to do.

Don,
We tried some ML Campell CV several years ago at the insistance of the sales rep. She was in the shop for a day, while we sprayed test panels and did some testing weeks after full cure. It was no better than what we were using but much more expensive (we had to deal though a retailer not wholesale). I know several people in the Southern ON region who swear by it.

As for warranty - I am a sucker. I've repaired stuff years after it was done (like 5,6 or even longer) at no charge for good customers. Stuff like small water marks around the sink cabinet, etc. I know wear and tear is not a warranty issue but I guess I feel obligated to take care of my customers, perhaps better than I should.

I have one lady we did a white lacquered kitchen for, 9 years ago, that just this past winter (which was very cold and dry) had some checking occur. Im supposed to go look at it, but I am not going to refin that one for free. There is a limit I guess, there has to be.

[Ajcoholic]

Andrew,
I've tried conversion varnish produced by Sherwin-Williams on some commercial dining tables. Unfortunately, no experience / feedback from service is possible, as the business closed after first year. What I can say is that it looked terribly lumpy at the outset, but after a few days, settled in fairly well. Always concerned about repairs down the road, as almost nothing adheres after curing.

My current favorite is an "Acrylic Conversion Coating" from Sherwin-williams, (T77-F-6X). It is a C.A.B. acrylic. Five gallon buckets are catalyzed at the store upon ordering (or by end user if you don't mind stocking a quart of catalyst), and good for 5-6 months shelf life.

Pluses to note:
- Optimal build and leveling with no reduction needed.
- Cured and ready for packaging within 4 hours(!)
- Non-yellowing, as it is an acrylic, making it "optimal for pickling and light pastels" I've had no issues laying over flat latex base coats that have been glazed and need a clear, non-yellowing top coat to seal it all in.
- Optimal heat and water resistance
- Self-sealing with one to two subsequent coats maximum.
- On Walnut- greatly reduces it's tendency to amber up over the years, particularly when compared to pre-cats and nitrocellulose based products.
- Recently found Mohawk offers a CAB Acrylic touch-up aerosol. It does burn into this product, as opposed to standard lacquer aerosol touch-ups, which do not adhere and can be easily peeled off.

I imagine the post varnishes may be measurably more durable, but always concerned about future maintenance, and find the trade off for a less fussy product is more advantageous, especially now that I can retouch.



Hearsay is irrelevant compared to your extensive personal experience with the product you currently use. I find most times a machine or product is scoffed at, the real issue is improper use or application.

Best of luck,

Jeff

Jeff,
The one thing I love about my current product, is there is no recoat issues and I have over sprayed stuff Ive done years ago (that was worn but still in fair shape, and didnt warrant a refinishing). I did use some pre catalyzed lacquers at one time, that had a 6 month window. After that you couldnt over spray without getting wrinkling. That is one reason we dropped it in favour of the post catalyzed. Ive never had any problem measuring 10:1 ratio, its pretty straight forward - and I guess pretty automatic after so long.

SW is a big player in the industry. However, where I live determines what I will use as I have to be able to purchase through a wholesaler to make it worth my while (even than the finish is expensive enough, especially solid colours) and also dealing with a supplier that I can get stuff shipped quick, and custom colours mixed, etc is important.

The reason I am exploring Valspar, is due to the fact Richelieu Hardware is a dealer now in Canada, and my main supplier for hardware, lumber, sheet goods, and a lot of other stuff I use. I have a long standing account with them and they treat me very well. I see the regional and provincial managers often, as they come visit my shop at least once a month.

Anything new makes me both excited and cautious. I know the sales staff's job is to try and convince me to change. I dont take what they say too close to heart as of course they will say it is better than their competition.

Oh well, I guess Ill see tomorrow how I like spraying this stuff. The Goudey post cat lacquer I know so well, I mix it with two strengths of solvent in varying ratios throughout the year to get it to spray very nicely, no matter what the temperature. Right now, it is 80 degrees in the shop. In the winter, I heat to about 66 F. That is a wide range of temp to deal with. I dont know how the CV will differ in this regard.

The vinyl sealer sprayed well. Dried fast too. I tried sanding an hour after spraying and it went to dust, no rolling up or balling. The post cat lac I use is self sealing, and I leave it 24 hours to sand well, or it gums up.

[kevin]

Sometimes we think having a bullet proof coat is the best.I had my start doing antiques in Montreal is a hub for antiques .I worked on art noveau arts and crafts Victorian you name it wood of every type quilted mahoney rosewood .Most came to the shop with original finish cracking off but remeber they where stored in basements they looked like ****.We would strip sand very lite rarely there would be large repairs .They made over a hundred years with a couple coats of clear coats what was there secret hmm.I'll get back
Fast forward 8 years later I'm working on aircraft interiors remember Montreal is the world hub for private aircraft the Changer was the most we worked .I was expressible for setting up a department from the ground floor for finishing no experience .We used polyester 12 coats polished the finishing takes 3 times longer then to make .We redid 36 aircraft because of clear coat failure it was an insurance job .The clear-coat was used was hard I mean the hardest crown metro[they are out of business] .The planes would come back scratch chips with very little use average flight 10 hrs a week .The reason is wood is soft compared to metal you give a blow or drop something it gives .Like an egg you can't stop that fact .The industries is chasing this supper coat i have the best the strongest .Does it make a difference yet antiques lasted years because the wood was allowed to breath . Cat I 've seen huge failures are we over killing ?

[bleeth]

Conversion varnish is absolute hell to repair if there is a chip or scratch. If it is not applied just right and it blushes you are truly screwed. If you want a finish to be bullet proof than I suggest you laminate it with Kevlar. Good quality post cats are both user friendly as well as reasonably repairable and quite hard and easily maintained. Pre cats are softer, but still very hard and easy to maintain and one parts are softer yet but the easiest to repair. Those beautiful antiques ( and I love them dearly) that need basic sanding and recoat to make look like new were done with finishes that are unpopular today as they are some of the most easy to scratch or damage. But in those days the folks who bought them didn't treat them like cr-p. Our family dining table, that we used daily for many years, was mahogany veneer with rubbed varnish. As kids we learned very early that G-d help us if we didn't treat it with respect. So many of todays clients think that our wood furniture should stand up to absurd abuse that it is ridiculous.
Andrew: I stopped using CV years ago unless a client demands it. And when I do, I jack the finishing price 50%. Even at that, I don't think it is worth it. At this point, even if doing a conference table, I tell my client point blank that it is furniture and is NOT impervious to damage by stupidity or carelessness.

[Ajcoholic]

Conversion varnish is absolute hell to repair if there is a chip or scratch. If it is not applied just right and it blushes you are truly screwed. If you want a finish to be bullet proof than I suggest you laminate it with Kevlar. Good quality post cats are both user friendly as well as reasonably repairable and quite hard and easily maintained. Pre cats are softer, but still very hard and easy to maintain and one parts are softer yet but the easiest to repair. Those beautiful antiques ( and I love them dearly) that need basic sanding and recoat to make look like new were done with finishes that are unpopular today as they are some of the most easy to scratch or damage. But in those days the folks who bought them didn't treat them like cr-p. Our family dining table, that we used daily for many years, was mahogany veneer with rubbed varnish. As kids we learned very early that G-d help us if we didn't treat it with respect. So many of todays clients think that our wood furniture should stand up to absurd abuse that it is ridiculous.
Andrew: I stopped using CV years ago unless a client demands it. And when I do, I jack the finishing price 50%. Even at that, I don't think it is worth it. At this point, even if doing a conference table, I tell my client point blank that it is furniture and is NOT impervious to damage by stupidity or carelessness.

I was not aware of the difficulty in repairing CV's. The post cat lacquer I use is very much repairable (been there done that..) especially within the 10 to 14 day period it takes to achieve full strength.

Im definitley not interested in going back to a pre-cat. Im very satisfied with what I have been using. I just like to keep an open mind - and I guess I just thought it was worth it to investigate the options of a CV.

That being said, I sprayed a gallon today on two cabinets, 4 doors and 5 drawers (and some misc trim). I had mixed feelings. It sprayed more like the automotive paint I have used - very sticky and the overspray is like honey. The post cat lac I use, turns to dry dust within seconds. This stuff seemed to stay sticky. The finish dried just fine, and on the flat surfaces (like the doors, shelving) looks fabulous. The gables and vertical surfaces look OK, but I like spraying my lacquer a bit on the thin side to get a really good flow out. Easier to get runs too, but after 20 odd years I am used to it.

The solvents are very harsh. That is to say, even more so than the PC lacquer (which also uses an acid catalyst) but after a few hours the smell dissapates. This stuff had me turning the booth fan on as fast as I could get to the switch and get my respirator on.

All in all - my gut thinking is the benefits (better adhesion, less affected by moisture) probably wont warrant the disadvantages. This was mainly for kitchen and bath cabinetry. Again, for my furniture and millwork I have never had issues with the finish - ever.

My customers are great - and I rarely see abused or very hard wear and tear on my stuff. AFter all, they are paying premium $$'s for a custom job and most of them, if not all, do take care of their stuff.

I appreciate your thoughts...with you having used both products - and that was feedback that I was hoping to hear.

[kevin]

The big problem with lacquers also polyester is they don't expand and contract that's why when they break down they crack the most you can hope is 8 to 10 years .its worst with cat because of being harder .Any one who been around kitchen will notice on 5 piece doors crack on the panel expanding and contracting
I think in choosing a finish is contraction and expansion of wood UV exposure easy touch ups damage on install
I learn a lot on these form I love the signs guys for trying new things and getting a better understanding of paints
Most customer are not changing the oil of there lawn motor on there kitchen table alcohol resistant yes
There has to be a respect for the care of fine furniture.I think its an education for the customer not telling them my finish last 20 years the strongest in the world its better business sense less call backs. I've seen kids do home work on the kitchen table with a pen and no backing no finish can stop those scratches
Ill post the yacht where almost finish 5 bathrooms its huge the company that's doing the work are real pros[from the Bahamas] We had a conversation on post cat there are major problems he has seen do you need it that hard or has Dave suggested laminate it