Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 43

Thread: PVC or MDO or ?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Delray Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,708

    Default

    My take on the sign trade:

    The introduction of automated equipment and computer design has changed the traditional signmaker's craft both for the better and worse.
    Signmakers now have the ability to turn out a layered or 3-d sign in a fraction of the time that it took years ago, as well as obtain repeatability much more easily.
    The flip side of this is that many have come to view signs as an inexpensive throwaway item that can be made up in a few short minutes. Digital Printers, which have made this fast, down, and dirty method of signmaking so available that we now have shops all over the place being run by people with no or little training in the true basics of the trade, such as layout, balance, font selection, readability, and artistry.
    We have the same thing in my core business of cabinetmaking.
    The relatively small percentage of people making a good living from only well crafted and designed work has resulted from the "mass manufacturing" affordability of product that may serve the function of the user, but has no heart. Many who enter the trades now do so with the idea that in short order they will be a journeyman, and after some time even think they are, when they actually have no idea of what the word actually means.
    It is clearly true that, unfortunately, many of the classically trained sign pros that were on this forum earlier no longer contribute. One big reason for this is their being discouraged by the same questions being asked over and over with virtually no prior research being made by the person asking. I'm sure many of us have been amazed by someone asking a question on one thread that has had the same question already answered further down in the same thread!
    Many of us who paid our dues the hard way get a little touchy at times when trying to get through to someone who is just looking for the easy way out. I know at times I have been more than a bit ironic in some of my replies and sometimes regret letting my frustration show, and other times not.
    For those of you who would like to spend some time on a couple of forums dedicated to fine and/or dimensional signmaking I would suggest the following two sites in addition to Signs 101 mentioned below:

    http://www.3dsignforum.com/

    This site, like ours, has hobbyists as well but also some very good professionals and a great gallery of members works.

    http://creativesignmakers.proboards.com/

    This site is almost exclusively pros and includes some of the finest sign artists in the world. There are many technique tutorials shared there and on their website: http://creativesignmakers.com/

    I have been a member of both forums for quite some years and when I have the time will go through them just for the educational enjoyment of experiencing the level of professionalism shown there, as I enjoy most the displays of some of the fine creations posted here. It is much like going through the galleries of the carvers and jewelry makers on the Artcam forum. You won't often see people who simply download, carve, and varnish a stock relief and call it their artwork!

    Just as anyone, just about, can take a sheet of melamine and build a box with a door and call it a cabinet, one can also cut out a few letters and call it a sign. They are not wrong, but that doesn't make them either a cabinetmaker or a signmaker.


    Personally, I have no problem reading a little rant from a professional once in a while as a small price to pay for the fabulous information shared.

    Sorry to be so long winded on this and hope that the information on techniques below does not get lost to those who have "newest post first" set up.

    Dave

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Norman, Ok
    Posts
    3,251

    Default

    Dave,

    Thanks for the review. It was correct and a fun read. Gene's OK. I get a chuckle out of his muses. He's doing the best he can.

    Lynn has my attention since he's starting back in the sign trade. Fellows like us, down in the trenches making signs find it challenging since there are so many materials and techniques at hand. One wrong move can reduce the profit in a job. For that reason I often offer suggestion in hopes with the intention of helping out. I am guilty of not being all that helpful to novices who don't have any skin in the game. No apology for that.

    One of the shortcuts I've found in sign making is to make as few mistakes as possible. As simple as this sounds it's a challenge. For example, material choices are critical. Finishing techniques can be a profit breaker not to mention installation. At one time we had Journeymen positions where you worked along side the experts. Now it's left up to the forums. Older more experienced artists like myself aren't too good in holding hands. We sure do go out of the way to help dedicated newbees.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Powersign, Brenham Texas
    Posts
    76

    Default

    Thanks Joe,

    Between you and Dave I finally have faith someone feels what it feels like to feel so helpless. Got slammed a few times on the forum for asking newbie questions. I had done plenty of research before I posted but still didn't understand. Backed off and grew thicker skin. I come from the old schools. My professors would rip up your graph paper in mechanical drawing class if it wasn't up to standard. Pissed you off but you sure did learn.

    I'll probably ask further dumb questions but I don't give up easily. I will master this.

    I'm trying to post pics of my "design wall". This has been a Tech failure day. Satellite service sporadic on overcast days.

    Thanks Joe for the encouraging words and Dave for realizing the craft of sign making has gone way beyond paint, brushes, turpentine and a place to lay it all out.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    LaGrange GA
    Posts
    590

    Default

    If you're running a digital printer for a living, please disregard anything I say.[/QUOTE]

    Hey Joe, I run a Digital Printer for a living, among other stuff......lol. I enjoy your posts and read them all. Thank you for all that you share on this forum as this is really the only one I read, and lately not so much because of workload. As you know I am "ONE OF THOSE GUYS" I have no design talent, but have been in the sign business for 25 years.

    Dave R. your post is right on. I started in the sign business at age 15 at a FASTSIGNS franchise back when the Gerber 4b cutting plotters were starting to become popular.

    Its funny to me that back then some of the artists that were hand painting signs and vehicles were telling folks anything they could to discount the "vinyl guy" but now a days some of the vinyl guys that still haven't bought a digital printer are saying anything they can to discount the printed graphics. Next on my equipment wish list in 2017 is a 4'x8' Flatbed UV printer to print directly to most any substrate. These machines are beating the snot out of the solvent printers and screen printing industry in terms of labor savings AND material savings in my opinion for most flat "quick signs"

    Technology is great. I think as long as you are honest with yourself and know your strong and weak points you will do fine. Just as Joe sends out his CNC cutting and digital printing (to a guy like me) I send out my design work to a firm I have teamed up with in my town. (no where as talented as Joe)

    I do the cheap dime a dozen signs every day, but at least in my case with all my expertise in the sign industry I educate the customer. Quoting these type of signs takes seconds over the phone with professional estimating software, and if they want cheap I give them cheap.

    If they want high end, well I do that too. I have good subs for anything I cant handle or don't want to. Its all about pulling from your past mistakes and victories. Over the years I have messed up so many jobs and lost money on some its hilarious. I have hit some home runs too......we all have. That's what gets me out of bed every day (the home runs). I am a sign guy with many hats, that's all. Heck I have even cut a few cabinet door jobs this year on the shopbot. Of course my customer knows I know nothing about cabinetry. I know I will never be a skilled woodworker or an artist but when I need help from that talent it is just a phone call away. I am a business man looking to make an honest dollar.

    I am starting to build channel letters. Just bought LED wizard software from Aries graphics (very good software). Could I do it without that software? No way. I am not skilled enough unfortunately to be able to pull it off without software. Who cares though right? I think diversification is the key to most small businesses of any kind now a days.

    There is even room for the guy that goes to signwarehouse.com and spends $2000 on a vinyl cutter and software combo. If the customer calls him and talks to him then calls me and talks to me I think they will understand the difference. IF they don't then I don't want that customer anyway.

    Back to the original question.....PVC


    Just my 2 cents.

    Dave
    Last edited by David Iannone; 12-02-2015 at 07:34 PM.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Powersign, Brenham Texas
    Posts
    76

    Default

    Back to the original PVC questions. MDO is not available so I have purchased (2) 4x8 sheets 1" and (1) 1/2" sheet. Reese Supply says brand name is Jain America. Looked up the technical sheets on their website and it is primarily house siding.
    Anyone heard of or worked with this brand?

    I still would like opinions about backing. Is the 1" thickness enough along with 3 1/2" aluminum French cleats installed top and bottom? Sign is 4'x4'.

    I have just upgraded to Windows 10 and the shopbot site won't upload my re-sized photos.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    LaGrange GA
    Posts
    590

    Default

    Hi Lynn,

    Thanks for the post. It is a great question and has me thinking like it was my job. I will tell ya how I would do it. Sometimes I fly by the seat of my pants on jobs so take my advise accordingly. Excel is good PVC, what is the color of the background? Is there a lot of material being removed from the main background panel? You said you are gonna do it in layers which sounds good to me. Joe has posted some great pocketing techniques so depending on the layout maybe you do shallow pockets for the layers/letters/logos as you build the thickness up in the design.


    Cut, carve, paint the whole sign in separate pieces/layers. Install the first layer directly to the building with screws in all the pockets before you put on the second layer. Then glue the rest of the layers in place like a nice puzzle. They will be all painted and ready to fit right in. Super clean edges and as long as you have enough pocketed areas in the first layer (like maybe a border all around the outside with the second layer being a border that goes over your hardware) I think it will hold up just fine.

    Dave

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Powersign, Brenham Texas
    Posts
    76

    Default

    Dave,

    Thanks for following this thread. Interesting results!

    Doing my research I learned to stay away from dark paint on exterior applications of PVC. The lettering and border will be a deep royal blue, the routed lines on border white and background will be tan.

    Since I am not up to speed on Aspire this is all being done by hand.

    Background and border are 1" PVC. Letters and accents HDU.

    I know to use long set up when bonding PVC to PVC. What adhesive is preferred is preferred when bonding HDU to PVC?

    Whoops. Two clicks on attachment should turn it around.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by powerlsc; 12-03-2015 at 10:17 AM.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Norman, Ok
    Posts
    3,251

    Default

    I'm in agreement with David.

    Lynn's idea of cutting all the parts for such a complex sign, by hand, out of PVC, is a mistake. This material does not sand well and corrections are difficult. This is a Router Job.
    Dark colors on PVC are not necessarily a problem. Most of my signs are dark but you need some kind of braces just like you would on HDU.
    PVC Gorilla Glue is the adhesive to use.
    Last edited by joe; 12-03-2015 at 11:39 AM.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Powersign, Brenham Texas
    Posts
    76

    Default

    Joe,

    Only the background is PVC. Letters are HDU, yes and cut with a scroll saw. Primitive but works. The HDU sands well. Even got my hands on some "Duna"!

    Thanks,
    Lynn

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    120

    Default

    I'm not a huge fan of Ex-CEL Jain PVC. Compared to Komacel, it's a bit of a step down, which is fair enough because it is a less expensive product. I had three issues with Ex-CEL. It stunk to cut/engrave/sand. I'm not a big fan of cutting materials that literally stink. I found the interior texture to be more grainy/gritty than Komacel. I've found on all 1" PVC there is a "seam" roughly halfway through the thickness. On the Ex-CEL PVC, it was more pronounced. If it's all you can get, I wouldn't be too concerned but if you can get something else, it might be in your best interest.

    The big thing to monitor with PVC is to make sure you get the right stuff. Interior stuff is matte finish. Exterior stuff is glossy. Now this isn't always the case, but it's the case more often than not. If they try to give you a matte finish material, take the time and call the manufacturer and the supplier and make sure you're getting exterior grade PVC.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •