Want to start new Shopbot-based business, but would like advice/ guidance...

[dana_swift]

... and spent many years as a software programmer...

Hello Tex. For the last few years I have stopped posting on here, just read when I get a chance. That note about being in the software business before caught my attention and I though it worth comment on. As my background is Electrical Engineering/Software/Mathmatics. If you worked in software, probably your understanding of the computer is way above average already. In CNC it really pays! That will shorten your learning curve when it comes to understanding how the various programs use files, where they are stored and how you can manipulate them to your advantage. I certainly do. What I found is the quality of the Vectric products makes the quality of the Shopbot products shine. It gets you most anything you want done easily and quickly. (After the learning curve that has been mentioned many times already.) But having my background, I wanted more than what Vectric offered. This may happen, if you know woodworking, software, and math. (You didnt mention math, so Im guessing there) But I have found writing my own tool path generators is something that has provided great improvements to my own results. Creating SBP files from your own programs is a great way to create much scrap and create a friendly relationship with your bit supplier for a while. But for me it was well worth it. There are many toolpath options I wanted that no commercial CAM program generated. 4d with a rotary axis, for instance. I have written toolpathing programs that consider the direction of the grain in the stock. The paths automatically avoid tearout. Vectric products have no consideration of such an important aspect of the material. (Why?) If you know software, you can have all those features and others as you see the need for them. I have, and have created about a dozen toolpath types for my own use that work perfectly for my needs. When I am going to make hundreds of something, its worth the trouble to do custom toolpath design. If I am making onsies of something, Vectric is the only way to go! Having both options is like owning a buldozer. You can go anywhere you want, but be careful because not all destinations are without consequence. Fun? CNC will be very fun, at any level. But if you go for the deep design as I have, expect it to be thrilling. And that learning curve? Im not done learning yet. +++ To all my old readers on here- hello! I have been enjoying reading your posts.. I may even post again in a year or two! Who knows? Tex- good luck and best wishes with whatever path you take. My best advice is stop paralysis by analysis: Buy what you can afford and start learning. Sell things and see how well they sell. What ever makes you the most money, make more of em. You will only regret not starting sooner. That is my only regret. D

[bking1836]

Welcome!

I have many more questions than answers, as I am a new ShopBot owner with hopes of making a living through a combination of CNC and traditional woodworking. It has only been a few weeks since my PRS Standard 96-48 has been up and running, but it has been an eventful few weeks and I will share some thoughts:

1. This is a high cost venture -- both in terms of money and time/energy. Learning VCarve Pro, which is the quickest route to bring a design to life, is absolutely critical. I am finding that it comes relatively quickly, but I wouldn't say it has been "fast."

Moreover, your time and materials costs add up quickly. There's a reason anything not mass produced in a factory costs so much. Especially as you are learning the software and the tool, prototyping your ideas is a must, and prototyping is expensive and time consuming. Last week, inspired by a photo I saw online, I designed/tried to reverse engineer a chair, and I wanted to be able to cut it from one sheet of 3/4" plywood. My first cut-ready prototype took 5+ hours of design time on VCarve. I am probably 3-4 iterations from being ready to make something commercially viable. That investment of time and money is ultimately small IF I can eventually sell a bunch of chairs. Otherwise, it's a fun and expensive way to learn new skills. The point is that it's going to cost a lot of money -- and take probably a good year -- for me to achieve a level of proficiency that is required to have a chance at commercial success.

Similarly, holding down material is tricky, except for vacuum tables -- which are lovely but expensive. Everyone on the forum tells me I will eventually cave and get a vacuum table....If they're correct and the same holds for you, well, the venture just got even more expensive.

And finally, if you like a clean(ish) shop, an oversized DC system like the 3HP Gorilla Pro from Oneida will pay dividends. My CNC runs almost entirely dust free, which justifies the extra cost in my mind. Even surfacing the MDF spoilboard produced essentially no airborne dust, which amazed me.

2. Use forums and YouTube extensively, but also double and triple check ideas. I simply could not have gotten this venture off the ground without forums and YouTube. This forum has many excellent members who are generous with their time and wisdom. The Vectric forum is good too.

3. Unless you're happy as a hobbyist, none of this really matters unless you are fully committed to branding, marketing, pounding the pavement, networking, etc. There are a lot of really talented woodworkers, CNC operators, etc out there who can make some amazing stuff but don't/can't market and sell their creations.

I was a hobbyist woodworker with a decent shop and decided to leave my career in education back in June to pursue this dream. Then I spent the summer generating business ideas, researching, watching YouTubes, and reading forums. Through that process, I came up with around 8 different revenue streams that I thought I would enjoy. Now that my shop is up and running, I am in the process of rapid prototyping of those ideas, and hopefully this process will illuminate which ideas have real promise, which ones are duds, and which ones require further inquiry before making any decisions.

Although I am not "retired," thanks to my wife's steady job, I am fortunate to have the ability to spend money while earning nothing for an initial 1-2 year start-up period. Otherwise, I can't imagine how anyone could do this unless that person (1) was retired with some financial flexibility (you?), or (2) started very slowly as a hobby while maintaining another real job, gradually allowing the hobby to flourish and turn into a going concern.

Best of luck, and keep posting!
Brian

[dlcw]

Welcome!


1. This is a high cost venture -- both in terms of money and time/energy. Learning VCarve Pro, which is the quickest route to bring a design to life, is absolutely critical. I am finding that it comes relatively quickly, but I wouldn't say it has been "fast."

Moreover, your time and materials costs add up quickly. There's a reason anything not mass produced in a factory costs so much. Especially as you are learning the software and the tool, prototyping your ideas is a must, and prototyping is expensive and time consuming. Last week, inspired by a photo I saw online, I designed/tried to reverse engineer a chair, and I wanted to be able to cut it from one sheet of 3/4" plywood. My first cut-ready prototype took 5+ hours of design time on VCarve. I am probably 3-4 iterations from being ready to make something commercially viable. That investment of time and money is ultimately small IF I can eventually sell a bunch of chairs. Otherwise, it's a fun and expensive way to learn new skills. The point is that it's going to cost a lot of money -- and take probably a good year -- for me to achieve a level of proficiency that is required to have a chance at commercial success.
Brian

When people ask me how much to make a part, that they want to order in small quantities, but get China pricing, I tell them, the first one will cost $50,000. Each one after that will cost $1.25. They always choke on that because they don't understand what goes into making "just one part" and then "mass producing" in quantities of 5 to 10 per order. They seem to think that they can get China container pricing when they order 5 or 10 at a time. It is a big education effort, which takes time and adds to the overall cost.

When customers ask why things from China are so cheap I tell them that first it takes a long term, high volume commitment on their part to even get a manufacturing organization to even talk to you. Second, you have to order at least half container loads at a time, second, it takes 60 to 90 days to get the order, and if anything is wrong with the order, to bad, you get to start the 60 to 90 day lead order time all over again and eat the bad product. If the mistake is your fault (wasn't what you expected, but initially designed), they will charge you to fix the design and all the processes that go into the production. They also don't understand the time it takes to design the product, design the manufacturing process, design the material flow process, design the product packaging, design the shipping process, do prototypes, arrange for raw materials in bulk, and then refine all the above processes to make it a viable venture. That is mass production. It takes time and Chinese manufacturers are not willing to embark on a venture that nets them 5 or 10 per order. So if that is the business model someone is aiming for, good luck getting China container pricing. It just ain't gonna happen. It takes big $$$ investments to get volume pricing.

[Brady Watson]

Brian/Don

My first cut-ready prototype took 5+ hours of design time on VCarve. I am probably 3-4 iterations from being ready to make something commercially viable. That investment of time and money is ultimately small IF I can eventually sell a bunch of chairs. Otherwise, it's a fun and expensive way to learn new skills. The point is that it's going to cost a lot of money -- and take probably a good year -- for me to achieve a level of proficiency that is required to have a chance at commercial success.

Yeah...that (and the China mentality) for sure are challenging. I think that the downfall began with dollar stores. Just cheap fodder nobody really thought about because the junk was literally disposable. This sort of thing has migrated into every aspect of manufacturing - and the knock offs have gotten quite specific. (E.G. - I was looking for one of those long ball mills that FrogMill sells and I got web results showing knock-off CNC machines from China, same color combo and everything)

Another problem is society and the fact that few people are producers; as a matter of fact, it's generational with many families not even related to anyone who does any kind of manufacturing - they are so far removed from grassroots that I wonder what a lot of people do for a living...unless they are just on the dole. Don't get me started. I guess the hipster maker movement or whatever may show a small glimmer of hope in terms of youngins understanding the trials and tribulations of even small scale manufacturing via CNC routers and 3d printers. We can only hope...

Don't think you're alone when it comes to the time-consuming task of creating a viable product. Few truly understand that the end product has actually been created at least several times before it was given the stamp of approval. First, there's the vision - in your mind - and all its iterations before you even sit down and sketch it out. Many times there are a number of paper sketches. Then there's all the different versions that you created in CAD - both before and after you have tried to machine/make one of them. This dance is no different whether you are new to CNC/CAD etc or have been doing it for years. Aesthetics and good design isn't even mentioned and that's a big part of things on the front end too...

I sometimes wish I could be the person my dog thinks I am...although, some days I wish I could be the guy that 'just pushes a button' and the customer's dream part comes out perfectly with zero effort. I mean, that is ALL WE DO, right? RIGHT??!!

-B

[Brian Harnett]

I have posted this information before, since the subject of holding parts has come up a few times I put some links to my pneumatic system for holding parts suitable for production.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j3e6WJxbWs

And an old thread http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/sho...-for-dovetails

[bking1836]

Brian/Don

Don't think you're alone when it comes to the time-consuming task of creating a viable product. Few truly understand that the end product has actually been created at least several times before it was given the stamp of approval.

I have thought a lot about the business side of CNC and woodworking. Best I can tell, the traditional woodworkers who seem to do well financially either make cabinets, remodel houses or have managed to carve out a niche in the high-end furniture or art market. Or their businesses are diversified to include teaching, consulting, YouTube, milling/kiln drying, etc. in addition to shop work.

The CNC is just another tool -- albeit an expensive, powerful and unique one. Its value proposition is a combination of precision, easy repeatability, and the ability to do complicated tasks that are either too time consuming or downright impossible by hand. If you plan to make things for a living and use a CNC in the process, it had better leverage one of those value propositions. Otherwise you're just prolonging your ROI unless you already have an established woodworking business in which the addition of a CNC will create efficiencies and drive margins higher.

I don't have an existing woodworking business, and I decided to turn my hobby into (hopefully) a profitable business by leveraging the power of digital fabrication. I realize it's a steep hill to climb. So from the beginning my plan has been to go after the high/higher end market, in part because my previous professions have helped me create a significant network of people in my area who fit that demographic; but mostly because that's where the margins are. But even without access to a wealthier crowd, I just can't see myself producing and selling $79 items unless they literally cost $5 in materials and take less than 20 minutes total to produce. The question, then, becomes this: where's the sweet spot of market price vs. design time + production time + materials cost + overhead? I have some ideas, but I would love others to share their experiences.

[dlcw]

You're right. The CNC machine is just a tool, like other tools in your shop. I think basing a business around a CNC might not be a good business plan. There are a lot of things that other machines do better and more efficiently, like flattening a board with a jointer, or thickness planing with a planer or ripping pieces on a tablesaw. Yes, these can all be done with a CNC, but why would you? I use ALL my shop tools on a daily basis. Once I get done cutting anywhere from 60 to 90 sheets of plywood for a cabinet job, the CNC sits there. I use my other tools to build faceframes, doors, drawer faces, trim, etc.

As far as the "sweet spot", I know, I for one, do not have an answer for this. I guess it would come down to a LOT of market research to determine if your product is viable at a price you can make a decent living at. Each person, who wants to undertake this vocation, will have to determine that. In my area, a $30-$40 cutting board made from any wood (exotic or domestic) will not sell well. High end cabinets with all the trimmings would not sell well, art furniture won't sell. My cabinet work is not low end. They are medium-high end. I've stayed out of the low-end cabinet market. To many other cabinet makers in the area servicing that market.

I've had to go outside my area (about 50 to 100 miles) to find builders I can work with to build cabinetry (I've been quite successful at this). I would much rather be making high-end - but functional (not art) - furniture, but there just isn't a "make a decent living at it" market for it here. So I pay the bills with cabinet work and dally in furniture and other stuff. Combine that with the fact that I'm approaching retirement, I'm not all that motivated in spending my retirement years beating the bushes trying to build my business any further then I have. I certainly wouldn't entertain trying to develop a "product" and bring it to market at this point in my life. That proposition can take years. I'd rather be out kayaking, 4-wheeling, camping, traveling or hiking. LOL

So, each person needs to determine if they have the time and energy to undertake the daunting task of creating a product that they can make a decent living at and convince people that the sign on the door does not say "Santa's Workshop". It's a tough proposition and I wish anyone undertaking this venture the best of luck!

[bleeth]

You nailed it Dave. Tough enough to make it as a well trained pro. At least 50% of time and money invested in a business goes to marketing or the business flops.
Nobody is gonna buy your mousetrap if they don't know you have it!!

[woodshop]

Thanks, bleeth. Yes, marketing!!!

As a side note and possibly pertinent to this thread, we took our web site down. Why? The Chinese were snooping around too much. (We watch the hits and where those hits come from carefully.)
People steal ideas.
I am usually a target for "Idea Thiefs" at the craft shows around here.