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Thread: Communication Error

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6

    Default Communication Error

    Hi,

    I'm about at my wits end trying to solve a communication error.

    I bought a (lightly) used PRS 4896 recently and it has suffered from USB connectivity errors since I got it. I have tried:

    5 different computers. The current one is a core i5 with 8 GB ram and has a fresh Windows 10 install with nothing other than vCarve and the ShopBot (SB) control software. It connected to the internet when I bought it long enough to install all the updates and then I put it in Airplane mode. It has only USB 2.0 ports.

    I put ferrite cores all over the place.

    I've replaced the USB cable a couple of times with brand new ones, never more than 10 feet.

    I put an AC line filter on the incoming AC.

    I've turned off updates as much as you can in Windows 10 and disabled sleep as given in the Windows Notes that SB provides.

    I'm only running it with the router off and the shopvac dust collection off. I zero it at home for x and y, and in the air in z so it's just the SB motors running.

    I replaced the controller card with a brand new one from SB.

    I have ordered a USB isolator that will be here next week.

    It will often fail at the same line in the same file, but sometimes not. I once did a test where I ran the same file 10 times and it failed on one particular line 8 times and a different line the other 2 times.

    The latest thing I've noticed is that when it fails, input 2, 4, 7 and 8 are on. Outputs 1 and 4 are always on for some reason.

    It's taking up half my garage and I'm pretty frustrated. A raspberry pi ought to be able to run this thing but I can't get more than several hundred lines through a program before it loses communications and has to quite. It's a giant boat anchor unless I can figure it out.

    I've seen people mention "make sure it grounded well" but the instructions I've read don't mention anything other than grounding the incoming AC which is securely attached to the ground bar in the cabinet. There's only one other wire that goes to the ground bar and that goes to the stepper drives. It's secure. Can't figure out what else to ground.

    Any suggestions for what I could try? I was super excited to do so many things with this but now I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of it. I can't rightly sell it if it doesn't work.

    Thanks for reading, and any suggestions would be welcome. I should note that the SB support guys have been very nice, but I've tried every thing they can think of and no changes.

    Cheers,
    Steve

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    iBILD Solutions - Southern NJ
    Posts
    7,986

    Default

    Steve,
    Forget running these machines on a Raspi - ain't happening. It *must* be a Windows PC. Win10 is OK but Win7 is better in my experience.

    Be sure to go into Power Management settings on the PC and leave the monitor and hard drives on always. Also, scroll down the list in advanced settings and make sure USB Selective Suspend is not on.

    In terms of the USB, make sure that the cable is not longer than 12 feet. If you need one longer than this, get a USB active extension - but get it working with a regular cable first.

    The next thing I am going to tell you will seem odd, but it does work for cases where there are COM issues. Get any USB self-powered 4-port hub (NOT Belkin brand) and plug it into the PC. Then plug in the USB to the control box into the hub. This will create a USB Enhanced port in the Device Manager and give priority to the ShopBot over all other ports.

    Give it a whirl and check back in.

    In terms of grounding - search on this forum for the proper way to ground the dust collection system.

    -B
    High Definition 3D Laser Scanning Services - Advanced ShopBot CNC Training and Consultation - Vectric Custom Video Training IBILD.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Clayton, NC
    Posts
    449

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenblake View Post

    I've seen people mention "make sure it grounded well" but the instructions I've read don't mention anything other than grounding the incoming AC which is securely attached to the ground bar in the cabinet. There's only one other wire that goes to the ground bar and that goes to the stepper drives. It's secure. Can't figure out what else to ground.

    Any suggestions for what I could try? I was super excited to do so many things with this but now I'm trying to figure out how to get rid of it. I can't rightly sell it if it doesn't work.
    Had lots of communication errors until I grounded my Dust Collector hose. I run a copper wire connected to the router, thru the inside of the dust collector hose, all the way back to the dust collector itself, and then terminate the copper wire on the dust collector frame. My comm errors went away with this setup. I moved some hoses one day, forgot to reconnect, and the comm errors came back. Rehooked up wire, and away they went. With all your stuff off, not sure if this is your issue or not, but one more step to try.
    Daniel E.
    ShopBot PRS 48x96 (2010 Model)
    Porter Cable Router
    Vacuum Table w/ 2 Fein vacs
    Aspire 9.0

    What I do when I don't mess up wood: http://www.pathhome.net

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6

    Default

    Thanks for the replies.

    As for the Raspberry Pi, that was just me ranting. I'm not expecting that to be an option but I've built some 3D printers that run off an Arduino just fine so I know it's possible to control a 3 axis gantry with fairly low powered hardware. But I digress... =)

    I could try doing the dust collection grounding, but I didn't even have a dust skirt or hoses or anything when I first got it and still had these errors. I have a regular shopvac plus a Rockler dust collection "bucket" (forget what it's called) and like I said, I'm not using it or the router. Trying to just get the gantry to run through programs first.

    As for the USB cables, I've tried the original 10' cable, two brand new 6' cables and another 10' brand new cable. None made any difference.

    I did try a USB hub a few months ago when it was at a storage facility before I brought it home. It was a friend's hub so I don't have it anymore. I just bought this one off Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 It did the same thing when we tried to run it there. Used two different Surface Pro 4s and a desktop PC.

    I also just ordered this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 as well. Not sure it could make a difference, but I'll try just about anything.

    Is there anything to do for grounding (assuming I don't have the dust collection on) other than the two green wires on the ground bus bar in the cabinet? I assume the cabinet is grounded to the frame through the bolts that connect it.

    For what it's worth, it's running that same 32k line program now and is about half way through and hasn't had an error. So possibly 1 success out of 5 today.

    Again, thanks for the support!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    iBILD Solutions - Southern NJ
    Posts
    7,986

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenblake View Post
    As for the Raspberry Pi, that was just me ranting. I'm not expecting that to be an option but I've built some 3D printers that run off an Arduino just fine so I know it's possible to control a 3 axis gantry with fairly low powered hardware. But I digress... =)
    I get that...BUT, those little 8-bit printers need a fraction of the communication pulse stream required to run one of these tools & max out way low @ 10kHz max. It's an apples to oranges thing. The fact that they are both 3-axis machines is about all the similarity there is.

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenblake View Post
    Used two different Surface Pro 4s and a desktop PC.
    No circus pros...no tablets...no phones...no Parallels on IOS...no Virtual Machines. A GOOD PC is what is required to run these tools. It is an extension of the CNC controller that processes on the PC and in the control box - it is NOT just a front end, like a 3DP LCD. A good quality computer is absolutely essential to a reliable, smooth running machine.

    Once you have a good computer that meets specs, you will need a USB self-powered hub to plug into the computer. If the computer's USB hardware is not up to snuff, you may need a USB PCI expansion card. USB hubs were shipped with new tools from ShopBot for the express reason of using it in between the CPU and control box. Of course all the other things mentioned such as power settings also have to be done.

    I don't say any of this to break stones...I'd like to see you up and running - but some things are absolutely essential. Neckbeard optional

    -B
    High Definition 3D Laser Scanning Services - Advanced ShopBot CNC Training and Consultation - Vectric Custom Video Training IBILD.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Thorp, WI
    Posts
    2,845

    Default

    What version of SB3 control software are you running? If it's a early version of 3.8.XX, some of those had issues where they would have comm problems with certain kinds of files and combinations of feed rates.
    Scott




  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Lancashire, UK
    Posts
    66

    Default Safely remove hardware

    Dear Steve

    The Comms Errors here were tracked down to un-plugging the USB memory stick (used for transferring part files from office to workshop) without using 'safely remove hardware' function.

    The comms error would manifest itself in many guises from just stopping, resetting or crashing. Usually withing a few minutes of 'pulling' the memory stick but once it was hours later.

    Anyway thats my two penn'orth.
    Sincerely and in good faith
    Martin Reid

    PS I'll keep watching with interest. Please post when you have it sorted.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Diamond Lake, WA
    Posts
    1,746

    Default

    It sounds like you might have a very dry environment and a lot of static in the air?

    Proper grounding is a science in itself. I worked in the Coast Guard in electronics for 23 years, many of it aboard ship. HF communications was one of our primary communications methods back then and for it to be as sensitive and accurate (FSK over HF is tricky. It's very much like Shopbot communications) proper grounding systems and techniques were essential. I am also a HAM Extra class operator and have spent many years perfecting grounding systems for really good HF communications. With this in mind I learned a LOT about proper grounding techniques. I used 10 gauge flexible green grounding wire with properly attached lugs - crimped and soldered.

    EVERYWHERE on the machine that there is NOT a solid, BARE metal to metal connection, you need to complete the ground circuit by installing a solid ground wire to span the non metal to metal area. For example, the V bearings that everything rides on do NOT provide a good ground connection. You need to ground the Z car to the gantry with a solid ground wire. You need to ground the gantry to the bed of the machine with a solid ground wire. You need to bring all these wires to a common ground location and tie this ground location to the computer, controller and AC ground. This makes sure you don't have any potential floating grounds or polarity differences across grounds which can cause microscopic arching. You can't see it but it is there. I made a metal plate that mounts to one leg of my machine and brought all ground wires to that common plate. The plate is tied to the AC ground with a 10 gauge wire. Yes, I have green ground wire all over my machine. But for the most part it all rides in e-chains.

    Since the legs and rails do NOT have a metal to metal connection (paint is in the way), I put a ground wire between all the bolt together parts of my machine to ensure they are ALL at the same ground point. Make sure your dust collector has a ground to the common ground point. Make sure your dust collection hose has a grounding wire that is tied into the common ground point.

    I know this sounds excessive and a PITA, but I learned in the Coast Guard that without proper grounding antenna and radio systems don't work right. To give you an example, we had chains that closed off boarding area breaks in the life rails on the ship. With an HF receiver, I could here these chains rattling by way of static in the receiver. We put a grounding wire to bypass the chains and all that noise went away.

    I did this with my machine, in late 2009, and have not a had a comms error since. I purchased the machine in August 2009 and had lots of comm errors until I properly grounded my machine. What a HUGE difference in reliability and performance.
    Don
    Diamond Lake Custom Woodworks, LLC
    www.dlwoodworks.com
    ***********************************
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in one pretty and well preserved piece; But to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, bank accounts empty, credit cards maxed out, defiantly shouting "Geronimo"!

    If you make something idiot proof, all they do is create a better idiot.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6

    Default

    Thanks for the advice everyone! Thanks particularly for the specific grounding advice. I think I would like to do all that irrespective of this issue - good insurance.

    Update: Tom from ShopBot suggested that I try running with the rainbow ribbon cable disconnected from the control board based on the observation that input 2 (and 5, 6 & 8) came on every time it suffered a USB comm error. The good news is that I can now run hour+ files (still no router or dust collection, but I just haven't tried) and no errors. Not sure what about that cable could be causing USB errors, but it's real progress for the first time in months, so I'm happy! I'm ordering a new cable per Tom's suggestion, but I'm not convinced that's really the issue. The sensor cables are routed nicely until they get just outside the control box, where they become a big rat's nest. I'm going to clean those up, give then nice, appropriately service loops and reterminate the wires.

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