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Thread: Resolution problems on a large relief carving

  1. #1
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    Default Resolution problems on a large relief carving

    Hello Shopbot Friends:

    There is a question at the end of this post, but I can not ask it without providing lots of details first....Sorry. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated, as I feel stuck. Thank you, Chuck

    About 18 months ago, I used Aspire to make a 3D relief model of the image shown in the first attachment. At that time, I made a huge beginner’s mistake. I made the “Job Size” twice as large as the actual size of the model, and I ended up with really jagged/pixelated edges on my 3D model. I posted what I had done here and on another forum. I was told that my model was fundamentally flawed, and that to get better results, I would need to start all over, and keep my “Job size” as small as possible in addition to using higher modeling resolution. So I spent well over a week to make an entirely new model.

    My plan was to model one part of the design, with the "Job Size" just slightly larger than the actual part. Then I would add a few more elements into the design, and enlarge the "Job Size" just enough to contain the previously made parts plus the new part. Along the way, I would go and make a side byside comparison of the resolution of my new model, compared to the one I made originally in 2016. (See attachment.) My resolution was much better, so stupidly I kept plowing ahead, always keeping the "Job Size" just big enough.


    By the time I had gotten the model up to the central part of the design (the base, the "trumpet" and the artichoke, plus everything on the right side, the "Job Size" was upto 31" x 32", and the model resolution was set for Very High, 4million points.

    Finally, I made the "Job Size" 68" x 34" and increased the resolution to "Extremely High", 8million points. Then I reflected everything from the right side onto the left side to get the complete model.

    I had to keep the entire model active to allow modifications of any part, so that I could view the entire design all at one time, and adjust anything so that each part would be correct relative to all the other parts in the composition. Even though each segment of the design looked OK by itself, I had to go and do lots of fine adjustments all around the design to make it look good. I viewed the composition from many angles, making lots of small adjustments. But I thought I was all done until...............

    I ran a couple of cut simulations, and realized that I had pixilation along the edges of my model. Then I thought, well, I'll add some draft to the model and do a profile cut to clean up the edges............. I then compared a cut simulation of my final artichoke from the entire completed design, with the same artichoke that I had originally modeled in a 3" x 5" Job Size, and my heart sank. That is when I realized that I had pixilation all across my model, not just along the edges...............

    I took a copy of the pixilated artichoke from the big/pixilated model and tried to clean that up using Aspire's sculpting tools. While I was able to make some improvement, what I got was still crummy compared to my original hi resolution artichoke made in a small "Job Size".

    Note:
    I want my model be of a high enough quality so that if I choose to mount this (or a similar future design) at eye level, that it won't require tons of hand clean up. In cases where the end relief carving will be mounted 10 feet up in the air, I can use a larger bit, bigger step-overs etc.) But even then I want my model to be high quality, and right now, I don't seem to know how to make a high resolution BIG relief model.

    I posted my problem on another forum last week asking how best to fix this situation to my satisfaction. But that discussion seems to have played out, without my getting much direction. Though someone directed meto: http://support.vectric.com/aspire-qu...del-resolution. This has given me added insight, but still not a clear cut path.

    Questions:
    1) What should I have done to improve my modeling resolution and provide the lowest possible amount of pixelation on my complete model?

    2) Or is my objective not technically feasible?

    Thank you for your time and consideration,Chuck

    PS: Someone on the other forum said that the level of detail that I want can not be reproduced with a practical bit size. But Aspire cut simulations showed a big difference in cutting my original high resolution artichoke compared to the pixilated version taken from my full sized model.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Chuck Keysor; 05-04-2018 at 02:00 AM. Reason: Add a space between two words
    Chuck Keysor (circa 1956)
    PRT Alpha 60" x 144" (circa 2004)
    Columbo 5HP spindle
    Aspire 9.0, Rhino 5

  2. #2
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    I made these two images to show the differences in cut quality when the tool paths are generated from my original high quality artichoke model, versus the model which had become pixilated from being upsized into too large of a "Job Size". Chuck
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Chuck Keysor (circa 1956)
    PRT Alpha 60" x 144" (circa 2004)
    Columbo 5HP spindle
    Aspire 9.0, Rhino 5

  3. #3
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    Chuck,
    Not meaning to add to your issues but do you know that the "Preview Simulation Quality" will have an effect on the toolpath preview..
    It does no effect the cut quality but on what you see.
    This and the modeling resolution should be of the same setting.
    Michael
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  4. #4
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    Chuck,
    There are a number of things that contributed to your issue.

    Feel free to contact me if you'd like professional consultation/training on this project.

    -B
    High Definition 3D Laser Scanning Services - Advanced ShopBot CNC Training and Consultation - Vectric Custom Video Training IBILD.com

  5. #5
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    Hello Mezalick. Thanks for your reply. Sorry I didn't include this screen shot with my original post. I was at maximum preview simulation quality for all of my evaluations, and I had made the attached screen shot for my post on the Aspire forum. Thanks, Chuck
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Chuck Keysor (circa 1956)
    PRT Alpha 60" x 144" (circa 2004)
    Columbo 5HP spindle
    Aspire 9.0, Rhino 5

  6. #6
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    Hello Brady. Thanks for your offer. Let me give this some more time to see what replies I get from this, and other sources. Depending upon what I get, or figure out in the mean time, I will decide how to proceed. I am glad to know that I have you as an option. Thanks, Chuck
    Chuck Keysor (circa 1956)
    PRT Alpha 60" x 144" (circa 2004)
    Columbo 5HP spindle
    Aspire 9.0, Rhino 5

  7. #7
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    Hi Chuck,

    I would RUN to take Brady up on his Tutoring, whatever the cost. His expertise and advice will likely save you days or even weeks of time trying to sort things out on your own. It will be a great investment.
    ══════════════════════════════════
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  8. #8
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    I got a reply from Vectric support this morning, in response to my request for understanding what I had done wrong, and how to fix it. Here are the key excerpts of the reply I sent to Vectric support, in which I summarized their most important recommendations. Chuck

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    3) So if I can restate your advice to me:
    a) My desire to be able to manipulate a petal within a flower while reviewing and adjusting the entire design, is understandable, but that it is simply not possible without getting the resolution problems that I have had. (This will be hard to get used to, because with my design, when I had it 99% done, I was able to spot little details that were not quite right, and I was able to go and change them. Oh well!)
    b) Best practice would be for me to model each flower (at LEAST at its intended final size, or preferably larger), then save it as a piece of clip art. Then to assemble my final design
    by pulling each flower, artichoke, etc, from my personal clip art library, shrink/rotate/tilt/fade as required, and then fill in other little parts as required.


    4) Because I personally don't like much smudginess, but instead like crisp/sharp details, and based upon my recent attempts to smooth away the pixilation problems in my current design,
    I will have to go back and reconstruct the design elements (each flower, the trumpet, the artichoke) from scratch. I will do that at maybe 3 times the needed size for this design,
    and save each such part as a piece of clip art. At least I have all of the original vectors I used for these models..........


    Please let me know if you see any point of my misunderstanding. Thank you for your assistance, Chuck


    PS: Providing some added promotion of Brian Moran's article, "Vectric Aspire Model Structure" would be a good thing. I personally have watched every video multiple times, and find them great. But I was so focused on learning by video, that I wasn't even aware of Brian's article. The best solution would be to make a video based upon that article, and to state the bottom line for people making LARGE designs such as mine, that here is how you handle it. a) After making a sketch of the design, figure out how large each part (flower, ribbon, bird) will be. Then model each of those parts at 2 to 3 times their final size so you can use them in future designs without having to "Up-size" them (which degrades their resolution). Model at high resolution, and make the job size just a little larger than the model size. Save each model as a clip art file. Then assemble the entire design using the custom made clip art files, down-sizing, rotating, tilting, etc as required. Then model all small misc. interconnecting parts as required. And NOTE, you can not make a huge design and keep every part, down to the smallest leaf as an active editable part.
    Last edited by Chuck Keysor; 05-08-2018 at 01:06 PM. Reason: I repeated and don't want to look stupid!
    Chuck Keysor (circa 1956)
    PRT Alpha 60" x 144" (circa 2004)
    Columbo 5HP spindle
    Aspire 9.0, Rhino 5

  9. #9
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    There is a great tool in Aspire 9 called object mirroring (name?) that can make your job a log easier. If you're not already using it, please take a look,
    ShopBot Details:
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  10. #10
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    Hello "coryatjohn" Hmmm,,,,,,,,,,,, I went to Aspire's sight and did a search on mirroring, and didn't come up with anything. The newest 3d modeling tools I can think of are called "spinning" and "turning". Any further thoughts on what the tool is called???? Thanks, Chuck
    Chuck Keysor (circa 1956)
    PRT Alpha 60" x 144" (circa 2004)
    Columbo 5HP spindle
    Aspire 9.0, Rhino 5

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