Best signmaking setup

[ssanda@nvbell.net]

OK, I've down a little homework here in prep for our shopbot which is on order. We are a small sign shop and want to offer an alternative to sandblasted signs which are 2d signs. So, mostly 2d letter carving, hogging out, v-bit carving small (less than 3") type and some 3d accents (like borders, objects (like a trout, for instance) that can be appliqued on one sign.

I think I should still design in coreldraw as I can quickly and easily create and print out color roughs, proofs and design prsentations, right?

Upon receiving the job I can convert type to curves, convert all objects to lines without fill and export as a dxf, right?

For the 2d carving I could import the dxf into Turbocad (or what?) and create the toolpaths, hog-outs and bit offsets, right?

I would do the 2d carving job seperately from the v-bit carving because of the bit change (and v-bit carving specific software), correct?

Next I would create my trout in a 3d modeling program (even a crude trout would be better than my hand carving skills and quaint, besides). I would export that to Millwizard (millwizard.com) and create that, right?

This approach would be the quickest, easiest and most efficient (money-making) way to approach this job, right?

Then I would finish, assemble and collect the check, right?

Thanks for your comments in advance as I haven't seen a specific project discussed from start to finish yet.

[RgEngrave@aol.com]

I think I should still design in coreldraw as I can quickly and easily create and print out color roughs, proofs and design presentations, right?

MOST CAD PROGRAMS WILL LET YOU USE FILL COLORS AND LET YOU PRINT IT

Upon receiving the job I can convert type to curves, convert all objects to lines without fill and export as a dxf, right?

WHEN USING COREL YOU HAVE TO DO 1 OF 2 THINGS FIRST
1. SAVE THE FILE AS A CDR, THE REOPEN IT THEN EXPORT AS A DXF OR

2. DRAW THE FILE AND SELECT ALL AND CONVERT TO CURVES, YOU MIGHT HAVE TO EXPLODE IT FIRST?.

I USED CORELDRAW 8-9-10 AND HAVE DIFFERENT RESULTS WITH THE SAME FILE EVERY TIME.

IF YOU HAVE TURBOCAD I WOULD USE THAT TO DRAW YOUR FILE, YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO CONVERT TO CURVES, YOU WOULD ONLY NEED TO USE THE SPLINE TOOL THEN JUST SELECT WHAT YOU DREW WITH THE SPLINE TOOL AND EXPLODE IT OR JUST USE THE MULTILINE TOOL AND YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO EXPLODE ANYTHING, THIS WILL SET THE CUTTING ORDER TOO.


For the 2d carving I could import the dxf into Turbocad (or what?) and create the toolpaths, hog-outs and bit offsets, right?

YOU COULD DO THAT, YOU WOULD GO TO EDIT-COPY ENTITIES- OFFSET, YOU WOULD FIRST SELECT A LINE THEN TYPE IN THE SIZE OF THE BIT YOU WILL BE USING AND HIT ENTER, THEN CLICK THE OUTSIDE OF THE LINE AND IT WILL OFFSET IT, THEN JUST DELETE THE INNER LINE.

AS FOR ISLAND OR HATCHING, BEST TO USE A CAD/CAM PROGRAM FOR THAT, IF YOU ORDERED A MACHINE? I THINK VECTOR COMES WITH IT? CHECK WITH SHOPBOT TO SEE.

YOU WILL OPEN THE DXF FILE IN VECTOR AND CAN DO A ISLAND OR HATCH WITHIN THE PROGRAM THEN JUST USE THE SB DRIVER FOR VECTOR TO MAKE YOUR SBP FILE

I would do the 2d carving job separately from the v-bit carving because of the bit change (and v-bit carving specific software), correct?

THE WAY I DO IT IS DRAW YOUR FILE,
LETS SAY YOU DREW A RECTANGLE AND IN IT YOU HAVE TEXT AND YOU WANT TO USE A V-BIT TO CUT THE TEXT AND A DIFFERENT BIT TO CUT THE RECTANGLE.

FIRST DRAW THE RECTANGLE AND SIZE IT, THEN SAVE AS A DXF AS CUT1.DXF.

NEXT YOU WILL PUT IN YOUR TEXT INSIDE THE RECTANGLE, SIZE THE TEXT AND PLACE IT WITHIN THE RECTANGLE WHERE YOU WANT IT, THEN DELETE THE RECTANGLE AND SAVE AS CUT2.DXF.

NOW ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS RUN THE 2 FILE TO COMPLETE YOUR WORK.

IF YOU WERE TO USE THE SAME ROUTER BIT FOR BOTH, YOU COULD USE JUST 1 FILE AND CHANGE THE COLOR OF 1 OF THEM, THE WHEN YOU CONVERT IT TO A SBP FILE YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ENTER THE DEPTH FOR EACH COLOR.

Next I would create my trout in a 3d modeling program (even a crude trout would be better than my hand carving skills and quaint, besides). I would export that to Millwizard (millwizard.com) and create that, right?

EASY SAID THEN DONE, I HAVE HAD MILLWIZARD FOR MONTHS NOW AND YOU WILL NEED TO ENTER THE RIGHT SETTINGS, I SEE NO CONTROL OF THIS UNLESS YOU WERE TO DO THE 3D FILE FIRST THEN GO BACK AD DRAW A FILE WITH THE SIZE MILLWIZARD CUT, THIS WAY IT WILL LAY OUT THE WAY YOU WANT.

This approach would be the quickest, easiest and most efficient (money-making) way to approach this job, right?

THIS WOULD BE A 50-50? DOING 2D FILES TAKES MINUTES DEPENDING ON THE DETAIL AND THE SIZE OF THE FILE AND 3D WILL TAKES HOURS, IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO 3D WORK BETTER SET THE PRICE FOR MACHINE TIME.

Then I would finish, assemble and collect the check, right?

[bill.young]

Rick,

I don't use Corel so I'm not speaking from experience, but graphics programs aren't designed for the type of drawing that you need to do for ShopBot cutting. I would certainly take Ron's opinion on this; if he says it's problematic, I'll bet it is.

Here's my suggestion; take it for what it's worth. Draw your borders and embellishments in a CAD program, then bring them into Vector to do your toolpaths, offsets, etc. Like Ron I use TurboCAD, like it a lot, and it seems to work well with Vector and the ShopBot dxf convertor. Version 4.1 is the best in my opinion, and the one I use 99% of the time, but they say the new version 7 is pretty stable also. Just about any CAD program will do almost everything you need to do, so my suggestion is to pick one and stick with it.

I think you'll also want some sign-specific software to do the centerline trace and 3d hand-carved looking work. Can't help you there, but Bill Palumbo is at the Sign Show in Atlantic City and hopefully will be able to give us some info on software next week.

The 3d work has a STEEP learning curve, especially with arty and sculptural things like a trout. I personally think Rhino is the best and easiest to use, and you can download a full-featured demo from them at www.rhino3d.com, but I would also look into 3d clipart and see if you can buy what you want instead of creating it; I think you would be ahead of the game. My experience has been that Millwizard works well with Rhino, but they all take some tweaking.

Hope this helps,

Bill Young

[swims@mindspring.com]

Hi Rick,

I come from an art and sign shop background and I'll have to disagree with Bill re: CorelDraw. When you get away from an intensive graphics based program such as Coreldraw you will lose, among many other things, all of the subtle kerning control that is built in. If you are used to CorelDraw you will NOT be completely happy with the text based functions in engineering and machine shop based programs such as Turbocad, Vector, or even Vfontz.

I use CorelDraw8 on a Mac for all of my text 'sketching' and quite a bit of my original design work and use Vector for creating the toolpaths associated with those designs. The 'problems' concerning conversion to .dxf are quite small compared to the flexibility of the software and the high level of productivity you can maintain because of your familiarity with it.

My 2¢.

Steve Williams

[danhamm@abccom.bc.ca]

It seems corel is getting some more bad press..
I use coreldraw for all the engraving machines
we have rotary, lasers, and shopbot now as well,
The only thing you have to convert to "curves is the
TT Fonts " you don't have to save to cdr. you export as dxf and convert with the shopbot coverter, The square drawing and circle funtion of coreldraw used with the contouring and trim
function works very well for pocketing and raised
lettering .. the only problem we have found is video cards.. we have four independent workstations 1 using a ATI wondepro rage card .. exporting from corel as dxf adds some tearing to the file.. my 2bits Dan H

[RgEngrave@aol.com]

Bill and Steve both have good points, to best answer all your questions it might help us if we knew what programs you have? or what you are looking to get?, we can them post the methods it will take to complete your project.

If you are going to be a new shopbotter and new to cad programs? I would follow this tips.

Before buying a cad program I would see what most shopbotters are using first, this is what I call a life saver.

If 50% of them are using "BRAND A" you will be able to get all the help you will need and only 1 way of doing it, this saves you all the confusion.

I started out buy using Autocad 14 to make my files, then moved to Coreldraw 8 because it took less work to draw them, then moved to Turbocad because it was so simple to use, so you see how it will change.

I have tried many cad programs but in the end I use Turbocad 98% of the time.

As for 3D I would get with Paul Neilson on this, he is the only one I know out of hundreds that has made and cut many 3d files.

Ron

[RgEngrave@aol.com]

What might work on 1 verison of Coreldraw might not work on the next? I have 4 thru 9 and used the same file on all of them and got 5 diffent cuts, the same goes for Turbocad, what I can do on verison 5 3D does not work on verison 6.5.

Go figure, I did find out that it has a lot to do with what verison of the dxf converter you use.

Ron

[danhamm@abccom.bc.ca]

Just a little hunch, we have all ver. of corel we are beta testers..3-10 plus the new linux ver..
we use 7 - 8 on different stations if you load 2
versions of corel on 1 station the last one loaded
has its ver. corelapp.ini-- you would get strange results when exporting a file from a later ver.
We don't use 9 or 10 the lasers divers don't work
well with them yet..

[RgEngrave@aol.com]

I knew there had to be an answer why it was doing that, thanks for the info.

Ron

[ssanda@nvbell.net]

Ron, Bill, Steve, Dan, thanks a bunch for spending the time to explain all that- I feel my "software anxiety" easing!

To clarify: Sign selling for us is an extremely graphic thing- we take a digital of a storefront and superimpose a realistic rendering of the sign on it to show exactly what the sign will look like installed. Can you do that with a CAD program- I don't know- haven't used Autocad since 1989. I've used Corel for 10 years so can whip out a design pretty quick with it also.

We use it with a bridge program (CasMate Cut) to cut vinyl and with a really wonderful driver to run our laser engraver. So if I could keep using it and use other programs to "fill in the blanks" I can stay really efficient.

Our laser (Universal 25 watt) is designed around the HP plotter model and the driver was designed with CorelDraw in mind. It really works seamlessly like a printer driver for vector cutting and raster engraving. It seems to me that programmer could easily modify it to work with the Shopbot.

Thanks again for the help!