ECabinets & ShopBot Link

[Gary Campbell]

The other thread was getting long.

Dan...
Here is a link where you can download the manual: http://www.ecabinetsystems.com/ecabi...opbot_link.htm
Gary

[Gary Campbell]

As we beta test this software "Link", there seems to be little or no real problems. There have been some minor reordering of callups for our custom files used for toolchanging and parking the gantry between sheets. These "rewrites" of the software have been completed by Thermwood in very short order, once notified.

On ShopBot's side, additional commands have been added to the control software to enhance our ability to cut (faster and better), and use any or all of our existing axes and accessories. This includes adding commands that allow users of the SB OEM drill setup to only use air when actually drilling. This will reduce the air requirements greatly for those with all but the largest of compressors in their shops.

ShopBot also has in development a provision for single axis users that will allow safe manual toolchanges and rezero during an eCabs/SB Link cutting file. This will include both software and hardware upgrades. The ability to use multiple tools, even for single axis users, will be a great addition for those of us that have been using vector based CAD/CAM software packages and saving each tool to a separate toolpath.

I have found that I am able, in my few short weeks with the eCabs software, to design any method of cabinet construction that I could imagine fairly easily by changing parameters on the free libraries offered for download on the eCabs site. I am also looking forward to the next few months and the online training to increase my skills with the program.

In my opinion, and I have no idea how many of you are out there, if you have eCabs experience, are cutting with a ShopBot, and build the cabinets that you design using it (eCabs), getting the ShopBot Link is a no brainer. Adding your desired joinery to the display grade boxes will be a one time investment in substantially reducing your machining and assembly time. The parametric abilities of this package have caused me to realize that with proper input, cabinet parts can be cut more accurately than by using trdaitional methods that require assembly of some portions of the cabinet before measurements of another can be made to allow cutting. Having learned my cabinetmaking in this way, and practicing the craft for 3 decades has made this the largest obstacle for me personally to overcome. It now seems to make sense that modern methodology should accompany our modern equipment to fully take advantage of its capabilities.

Using traditional methods, and depending on the hardware configuration, we usually had around 3 hours in cutting, assembling and installing hardware in the typical frameless cabinet, 4 for a faceframe version. Our first cabinet designed and cut using the eCabs/SB Link combination was a frameless version and had a total of 40 minutes of time, not counting refinish. This is a substantial reduction of labor. Whether your own, or that of your employeees, a conservative estimate would be a labor saving at or exceeding 50%. This has allowed us to add an economy line that has been received well and we should be cutting one of these jobs in the near future.

There is a great difference between simply cutting parts on a CNC machine and adapting the nested base machining process. Even tho the large box cutters that we have all cursed as custom cabinetmakers have given the process a "bad name" in our eyes thru the use of low quality materials and cheap product lines, there are some things we ShopBot owners can learn from them.

Some of these things that I have learned are:

We as cabinetmakers dont have to sacrifice any quality, anywhere in our work. In fact, we may find that we can raise the quality of our joinery with little or no additional effort.

That where I used to think that I could cut rectangular pieces on the slider faster, and for a couple I still can, that on a job basis, having to recut just a few will cause losses in both time and materials costs and negate the savings.

That using joinery such as mortise and tennon blind dadoes are more accurate and results in better tighter joints than full dados, and are faster to machine. Variations in plywood thickness' no longer affect the joints appeal. We have been able to apply this joinery to our solid wood, face frame and edgbanded plywood framless cabinet lines.

That one of the biggest time saving operations is drilling hardware holes. This, along with predrilling assembly screw holes has saved us immeasurable time and has added very consistant fits to our door and drawer assemblies.

That the advanced toolpath abilities of the SB Link have taken our machine to a higher level of performance. Our previous files were cut using templates placed on sheets and toolpathed using CAD/CAM software with haphazard parts cutting order.

That the parametric speed settings in the Link allow us to cut at almost double the speed we previously did, as the software will slow the bit where needed, based on our part sizes.

That we can now cut smaller parts than we used to, due to automatic additions of tabs or onionskin based on parts size.

I am sure there are many features that I have not listed, and hopefully some of the other guys cutting parts with the Link will chime in with their favorites.

In any event, there does not seem to be any downside to this exciting new combination. Return on investment should be measured in days or weeks rather than months or years. It may also save you, as it did us, from purchasing a $20K+ software package.

Sorry for the long post, but as you can tell, I am excited. Excited both for what we have gained, and for what those gains will do to help insure our survival in these trying times. So, if you were waiting for a report back from the testers before you put some of your eCabs files into your ShopBot, words out, IT WORKS!
Gary

[thewoodcrafter]

Glad to see someone else is as excited as I am with what the Link gives us ShopBot owners.

With the true parametric capability of the software I find the best feature is the ability to cut cabinets from any material without any design changes.
From plywood at .715" to double sided laminate at .825" the same cabinet files can be used without a concern for things fitting or a row of cabinets growing.
Simply correct your material thickness before you post (generate a TWD file) and you are done.
The software is smart and very accurate.

If you want to edgeband the bottom of the sides of a frameless wall cabinet and have if flush out to the deck, simply add an inset number when designing the cabinet.

If you are building an island with a finished 3/4" back and 2 finished ends, use blind dado construction and inset for the edgebanding and just glue it together. Everything fits and no fastners to try to hide.

The more you use the software the more you will find what it will do for you.

Before I could cut with the software I found the 3D color renderings were a very powerful sales tool and used the software for that only.

[beacon14]

Hey Gary, welcome to the real world of CNC!! Not to divert your thread but rather to reinforce it, I have found the exact same list to be true with CabinetVision. Of course I spent the $XX thousand bucks before the eCabs link came out, but I don't regret it. Seven months later, I'm exploring the customizable features of CV - last night I wrote a short piece of code to automatically apply a picture frame molding to any part while at the same time creating info boxes where I can specify the side, bottom and top margins of the molding. I assume you will be able to do something similar in eCabs? Of course, any moldings used in the job are added to a report so I can see at a glance how much molding to make or buy.

I totally endorse the concept that for anyone making or wanting to make cabinets with a ShopBot, the eCabs link is the way to go, if you are not already using a similar software package, even if you have to start from scratch learning the software. I had gotten to the point where I could cut parts out all day but it would take me a week to draw enough parts to keep the machine busy for a day. Now the tables are turning and I can build a job on the computer quickly and easily, check everything visually, check the parts list for any anomalies, and start making sawdust.

The combination of capable software and a properly equipped shop have put the fun back into cabinetmaking for me, and like you said, allowed me to make money on jobs I would have had to pass on previously, not to mention sell more jobs with the professional looking presentation.

It's easy to understand your excitement!

[Gary Campbell]

David...
No hijack going on here. The best thing I could do is get ANY relevent info to anyone needing professional grade software to take product from screen to machine.

Can you let us know what type of drawing output is available with CV? Many commercial guys need to have 2D elevation, plan and section views to submit as shop drawings for approval. How well does CV deal with this?

Due to embedded Autocad, Microvellum does this well, but is not a one button click operation. One must have a profficient Autocad operator take the 2D output and then add dimensions etc for submittals. Microvellum also has an advanced toolpath engine similar to what I have experienced using the SB Link. It also has many other extremely powerful features and many expensive ones also. The version that I saw demo'd was over $40K. The owner of that software thought that it was a bargain, as he was paying under $700 per month for software that was increasing his production by $8-10,000 per month.

Shop drawings and/or submittal grade 2D output is a weakspot with the eCabs software. Even tho it will design as easily and fast as any, and machine better than most, you will still need to generate 2D shop drawings outside the program. This is a rare condition for us, and we will make the 2nd application work for the few times a year we are required to submit this type of drawings.
Gary

[nat_wheatley]

I've been using E-cabinets and the Link, in metric, to cut my cabinet parts, and have been very pleased. Zero issues so far with the inch/metric conversion. The software nests and machines significantly faster and better than what I've been used to using.

One of the things that's nice, is that once you've set up a cabinet, 'dialed in' to your construction methods, saved it to a library, it's there for good. You get consistant, repeatable results each time you call up that cabinet, the guess work is eliminated. In a short time of using these programs, I have far more confidence in the results than I would expected to have at this point.

I did have several questions when cutting with the Link for the first time. Thermwood answered them quickly. Their forum has been very helpful in terms of learning the E-cabinets component.

If you are using metric, and multiple tools, once you get the correct custom cut files, you'll need to convert these, as they're set up in inches. Fairly easy to do.

Also, as mentioned earlier, you'll need to be using a 'beta' version of the control software. I've used ver.33 sucessfully, but did have several issues with ver. 35.

I owe a sincere thank you to the people at both Shopbot and Thermwood. It's become clear that the software will have a significant impact on the productivity of my business. Thank you for making it available to us, and pricing it very reasonably.

[Gary Campbell]

I have just gone thru my inbox and it appears that there are many questions that ShopBotters would like answers to. I will try and do my best. The following are cut and paste from emails:

One of the most often asked is: "It sounds too good to be true, whats the catch?"
ANSWER: So far there is none, the eCabs deleivers what is promised, and unless you need Architectural Submittal grade shop drawings, or do specialized operations, such as closet systems, there is a pretty good chance that it will work well for you. It appears that closets could be built, but not as easily as with high end offerings with a closet module.

Find out if Gary has a copy of the "Nearly Complete Guide to eCabs" and if so, is it significantly better or useful than the downloadable software manual?
ANSWER: Mine has shipped today, I will let you know. I also plan on signing up for the online training. I am not willing to wait out the learning curve as I did with the OEM design software.

Has it been troublesome to not be able to look into any of the Shopbot files before sending them to the machine for cutting? According to Ryan, the Link doesn’t generate any SBP files, it just talks to the SB3 program directly.
ANSWER: It has not. At first I was very dissappointed that I could not view the files. After watching my machine run, and realizing that there are no user errors (mine) included in the toolpath, this will be no longer needed. In the past I modified files to improve them, I cant think of a way to enhance what Ive seen come thru the Link.

Are you able to run the SB3 software in preview mode so that when initial cutting attempts are going to be performed, they can be previewed first (hopefully using the new Vectric-produced 3D previewer that is in the beta versions of the SB3 code)?
ANSWER: I guess you could, but I have always hated that new previewer. The old 2D was tolerable, but the last time I remember using it was when I was hand coding my Dovetail cutting files. I have run them on the simulator, which is a SB controller card, but I have found that things that work on the previewer or simulator, dont always work in the real world, and I am real world. I think that the 3D exploded view in eCabs is a much more useful tool. It has a level of detail that allows you to see woodgrain inside a 5mm hole. The nest sheets give a very accurate location for every geometric shape on a part. I have never been able to get helpful information from a preview screen for cabinet parts. Art, of course, is different.

Though everyone’s ShopBot is going to cut differently and hold down parts differently, would Gary be willing to do a screen capture of the various SB Link configuration screens so that I can use those parameters as a starting point?
ANSWER: I can, but it is all shown in the Link manual that you can download. This is not a complicated piece of software, it is simply a decoder for the encrypted TWD files that have toolpath and tool parameters that are user definable. Just remember that you must enter your speeds in INCHES PER MINUTE.

Have the people at Thermwood been helpful and responsive? How would they compare to the SB personnel in terms of knowledge and friendliness. Are SB Link users being treated in any way as “second class citizens” due to our lack of Thermwood machinery?
ANSWER: Very helpful and thourough. Their professionalism level is at or above that of the ShopBot Staff, and that is saying a LOT. I have spoken on the phone, by email and in person to Thermwood personnel from Mr. Susnjara, the development team assigned to the link, and owners of multiple machines. I was treated very well by all.

How much activity and information interchange is there on the SB Link forum at Thermwood? How many Botters are actively posting on that hidden forum? Presumably it will be generally available at some point in the future? On a related note, I mentioned to Ted Hall that it would be a good idea to create an SB Link section of the ShopBot forums (but haven’t seen one yet). Perhaps if other more influential people like Gary also asked, they would take care of that.
ANSWER: The private beta forum has had all problems posted on it, with very timely answers from both the Thermwood beta team members and staff. I have seen posts there from most of those that are testing the link. I like the idea of the private forum for beta and can only guess that it wont be public. The eCabs section is every bit as helpfull and open as this forum. I cant say what SB will do, but they usually manage to spoil us.

I believe there’s a hasp/dongle that enables the SB Link software to run on the SB computer?? Does that security key require a network connection to the internet in order to function properly? My SB computer is isolated from my network so I don’t have to populate it with anti-virus software, etc….
ANSWER: The hasp requires no internet connection. If you wish to install eCabs it will have a one time online activation requirement.

Unless I’m mistaken, all cutting bits are probably zeroed to the table so that the thickness of tenons and blind dados can be accurately dimensioned regardless of variations in material thickness. Is that right?
ANSWER: Yes this is correct, and I want to know why I wasnt doing this all along! The Link also outputs exact material thickness to enable cutting any thickness material without a rezero.

Has Gary been using the offall (scrap pieces) functionality of the nesting program, and if so, are you using that in conjunction with label printing. Does the SB Link program have the ability to print labels for cabinet parts, offal, flip part machining, etc?
ANSWER: I have accumlated a few pieces of scrap in the DB, but my label printer and barcode scanner are a few weeks away. Yes, labels, barcodes, different colors for each cabinet label and flip machining all included.

I wonder what extra “load” the SB Link software places on the PC connected to the Shopbot. My PC is not super-powerful nor does it have a lot of memory or processor speed, but it has easily handled large files generated by Aspire and PartWorks. Has anyone mentioned processor/memory minimums for the machine connected to the Shopbot?
ANSWER: Little or no additional resources required. I have a minimal specs PC for my control computer and it works fine. Remember this is just a text file transcoder.

Have there been any issues related to controlling the spindle RPMs via the spindle control board when using the SB Link software. I still have some reliability issues with my spindle control software/hardware, but maybe those are addressed in whatever version of the SB3 software I need to be using in order to run the SB Link software.
ANSWER: The link outputs the same TR,xxxxx command that we are used to with current software. If you have issues now, you will most likely have them with the SB Link, unless the switch to the newer betas works better than the OEM software.

Speaking of SB3 software changes, how frequently have Shopbot or Thermwood been releasing new beta versions of the SB3 software or the SB Link software based on feedback from the beta testing. Is the SB Link software still officially considered to be in beta test, or is it formally released?
ANSWER: We are using version 5 of the Link, each new one ready within hours of a reported bug. We are on the 3rd or 4th beta version of SB3, each one with improvements over the prior. Since I am aware of working, released sold SB Links to other than "official testers", I am assuming this is OEM and ready for the market.

If there are any more related questions, please post them here, as I am sure that others may wish to learn from the answers. Sorry for the length of the post.
Gary

[Gary Campbell]

Last one for the night...

QUESTION:
I think it would be very enlightening for prospective users of the SB Link to see a detailed diagram or flowchart which indicates how the various components of this system work together. I'm a pretty intelligent guy and have about 20-25 hours invested in the learning curve so far, but I'm still not sure I have all the pieces put together correctly. Specifically, it would be nice to see a chart which shows how you start with the eCabs software and create a cabinet design, then save that design as a TWD file (this is the part I still don't understand, since I'm not sure if you use the Nest and CNC function in eCabs, or if you skip them), which is then loaded by the SB Link program, which in turn seems to have "executive level" control over the SB3 software and passes (encrypted?) information to the SB3 program and then on to the machine. I'm an ex-software designer, so I think about this description in terms of a nice one-page flow diagram which shows each module and the information types that flow between them..... Grasping this high level view of the system might make it easier to then learn the individual components.

ANSWER: Once you have a "job", which can be 1 cabinet or 100 to your satifaction in eCabs, you can use the "NEST" icon to see what the sheets and parts look like on each sheet. You can also audit sizes and locations. You may also "filter" out sheets for later cutting, add or decrease the number of any part or parts.

To save the file to a "TWD" file for maching you use the "CNC" icon. This will allow you to save the file to your desired location and name. You also have the option to enter the exact material thicness, which will adjust all sizes, dados, etc to account for the thickness change. This is the file that you can "transfer" to the SB Link.

At the control computer, with hasp in, start the SB Link. Nest parameters should be set. You can then "LOAD" the TWD file into the link. You can apply a filter again if needed to change quantities of parts or sheets. You are now ready to "NEST". Select nest in [X] or [Y].

Tool parameters are set by entering your tool diameters, and selecting the operations that you wish it to be able to do, and the speeds (IPM) that you wish to apply to that tool for that operation. You also have tool parameters that allow reduction for small parts among many others. When this is complete, click "SEND TO SHOPBOT", step 3 steps back and prepare for your jaw to drop!

Note: assume 2nd job with same, correct parameters...

Load, filter, nest.
Send to shopbot
its a 10 second job.

Sorry about the lack of flow charts... woodbutcher here, not computer genius. Nor did I stay at the Holiday Inn Express. The learning curve is in the design area, due to its broad range of options. The learning curve for the SB Link will be similar to toolpathing a 3 or 4 tool job using Partworks, except its harder to make a mistake and the results are much better. (at least for cabinet cutters)

Gary

[benchmark]

Gary,

Thank you for all the feedback, it is very enlightening... you have now become a Writer/Shopbotter.

Do you have any idea what happens if you have a job that will use say 30 sheets of material, by the end of day one you have cut 10 sheets, on day two what action does it require to commence cutting sheet 11 and onwards ?

I agree that eCabinets measured shop drawings and submittal grade 2D output is a weakspot with the software, do you know if there are any plans to upgrage this area .

Many thanks


Paul

[kerry_fullington]

I wanted to throw in a couple of comments about eCabinets addressed in this thread.

Roger,

You don't have to add an inset to allow for edge banding. You can create your edge banding materials in eCabinets in the Define Stock Materials area and then add the edge banding to any of your parts when designing your cabinets. When the edge banding is applied to the part it automatically re-sizes the part to allow for the edge banding and then will give you an accounting of the edge banding material for your job costing. This way you don't have to think about allowing for edge banding.

Paul,

There are plans to improve the line drawing editor to produce 2d drawings but it is really a great tool when you get comfortable using it. There are some tips on using the Line Drawing Editor on the eCabs forum that make it a little more user friendly. I will try to find them and get you a link. Here is a link to some of my line drawings. They will demonstrate how you can show or hide as much detail as you want.
http://www.kerryfullington.com/pdfs/Binder1.pdf

Gary,

I have to disagree with you about the closet systems also. You can design any type cabinet in eCabinets. If you build your library with the correct construction it will produce those cabinets. You create your own "Closet Module"

I would encourage all of you to join the eCabinets forum to voice your concerns and help improve the eCabinets software.

Kerry