Looking to purchase, Need some opinions

[legacy_millwork]

Hello all, new here and have been considering the purchase of a cnc router. I am a small one man cabinet shop that is fairly well equipped (Edgebander, slider, etc.) What I am looking to do is speed up my cabinet panel production and accuracy. I am aware that the cnc will outproduce me by a large margin.

I have yet to decide whether or not to use the cnc as a point to point machine or nest the cabinet parts. I will also be using the machine to cut arches, flutes, circles and all the other neat stuff a cnc shines at.

The tooling that will be required will be a 3/8" cutout bit (if nesting), a quarter inch bit for the backs, a 5mm drill bit for shelf pins, a 10mm drill bit for inline hinge plates, and 1/8" drill bit for predrilling screw holes on unfinished ends.

My thought is to use a Spindle and two air drills to accomplish almost all of my machining. But for the price of two drills I could get another spindle z for the machine instead, which would be the better option?

If I nested parts I would be looking at a vacuum system also. I only have single phase power so a phase converter would also be necessary. If I ran the machine p2p I could come up with some sort of clamping system to use while the part is being cut out.

Looking for opinions on whether or not you think this is feasible, worthwhile, cost effective, or whether my whole line of thinking is whacked. I feel that shopbot is still my best bet after looking around and researching for a year, due to the low cost and quick ROI.

Thanks for your time and sorry for the long winded post.

Justin

[andre]

Justin
I am also a one man shop.
My advise is to start with the basics. Start with a router instead of a spindle and save yourself $2000. Spend the extra money on the prs alpha. I am cutting my cab parts with a porter cable 3 1/4 horse and having great results.
As far as what you will use it for, the possibilties are endless. Start with the basic software shopbot includes with the machine, it is plenty to design and cut pretty much any 2d geometrical shape you can think of. The training cd it comes with is great. watch it and you will be cutting things in no time.
I have two fein vacs for my hold down and it works unbelivably well. Less than $1000.00 for the two vacs, the pluming and harware. You wont need 3 phase for this setup, just 220.
Good luck

[legacy_millwork]

Andre

Thanks for the quick response I will keep the router in mind.

With the fein vacs I would consider it but I read somewhere on the forum about altitude affecting your vacuum. Our altitude here is about 4850 feet, so do you think I would get enough hold down with the fein method?

I would much rather go that way, because the cost savings would be huge. $1000 for vacs vs $6000 for the blower and another $2500 for the phase converter, not to mention the $ for the electrician. "OUCH"

If anybody has opinions on the vacuum system and my altitude let me know. That would really help boost me into this cnc system.

Thanks all

Justin

[dray]

Justin.. Start with the basics. I would get a single Spindle and make your own vacuum table which I have yet to do.

I use a 1/4" bit for most everything, but I never do face frames only euro style. I'm in southern Ca, Im not sure where you are but feel free to call me on any cabinet/cnc info. I just got mine about 3-4 months ago and I'm putting together cabinets with a quality I never had making them by hand.

[legacy_millwork]

Danny,

I hear ya, I also do euro style cabinets and it's the repeated setups that really irratate me, tear down the 3/4" dado, put in the quarter inch dado, shim it to get the right clearances.
Go to the shelf drilling machine, fence isn't long enough, make marks on the board to line up. Oops holes 1/32" inch off shelf wobbles slightly, drives me batty.

Anyhow what operations are you doing with just 1/4" bit? Shelf pin holes, dados, and cutout, or are you just machining your parts?

Thanks for the invite to call, I just might take you up on that.

Justin

[andre]

Justin
I'm not sure what affect that will have. I am under 2000 and have great hold down with two feins.
Search the forum, I know there are alot of people with ideas on this subject.

[cip]

Justin,
I was doing the same thing you are right now about 3 years ago, research, research, research. I ended up with the 5x12 alpha, 5 hp spindle, 15 hp vac., air drill, and indexer. A lot of money but if I were to do it again I would'nt change a thing. I hit the ground running and never looked back. I use it all and have loved it.

my 2 cents.

Mike

[richards]

Altitude is a factor with vacuum. I'm at about 4,500 feet. With everything closed, I get about 5" mercury, which is about 2.5 lbs of pressure per square inch. My setup includes two Fein vacuums plumbed through a common manifold to four zones, with a shutoff valve at each zone. I can't cut melamine in one pass, even side panels. The cutting force is greater than the vacuum hold down. My method is to leave a 0.030" skin to hold the sheet together and then trim that off at the router table.

[legacy_millwork]

Mike Wright,

Sounds like a great setup that you have there. I have also been doing lots of research and without going to an extreme cost of over $50 to $100,000 or more (which for a small one man shop is impossible to handle) the shopbot seems to still be the best option.

The problem seems to lie with changing the bits and how to program that in to your nesting of cabinet parts.

Mike Richards,

I was afraid that was going to be the answer to the vacuum situation. So are you using a down cutting bit or a compression bit? I was hoping with the combination of two feins and a compression spiral I could at least hold down the larger panels.

Would a system of four feins, one to each zone work better with the hold down or am I just chasing my tail? I would still be well under the cost of a vacuum pump with the 4 fein system.

Thanks for all the info, keep it coming.

Justin

[henrik_o]

Hello Justin,

You're in the situation I was in until about a month ago, i.e when I ordered my 'bot.

You seem to have a very clear and concise idea of what you want to achieve, which I think is the most problematic step, really. Once you know what you want to do, it's a matter of filling in blanks, more or less.

First thing I did when I was ready to shop was to consider size. While the 96-60-8 is a bargain, I decided that I can justify the cost of a 120-60-8. If it wasn't for Decospan and their high quality products, and especially their superior logistics -- any veneer, on any common panel substrate (and some less common), done and delivered in a week, and it's a fixed price even if you order just one panel-- I probably would have settled for the 96-60-8, but I really am in love with their 'big blockboards'. So, 120-60 it was. I then decided that the jump to 14 inches on the z axis was acceptable in price, since it allows me to use an indexer without slaughtering the table, and also to use the 'bot as a p2p for curved furniture parts.

Next, hold down. I'm not entirely decided on this one. I'm willing to spend money on this, because I want a good vacuum setup. However, since I can noise insulate the blower, I really want a Roots blower rather than the regenerative type. For some reason Dresser are being difficult about this, I have no idea why but my attempts to purchase one of their pumps through shopbot was nixed, and when I tried their local distributor here, they would not sell it unless I provided them with 'detailed information about my current setup'. Very, very, very strange.

Anyway, I'm not in a hurry because I already have a Siemens ELMO blower which I can use interim.

Spindle, well, I can't say I'm sure about this, but the HSD 4hp seems like a good deal compared to the 5hp Colombo, and I figure if my needs grow I can buy a Colombo and switch the HSD to my tandem z.

Yeah, I'm getting a tandem z because some of the operations I foresee will greatly benefit from being able to use two cutters without any toolchanges.

I will add an air drill later.

quote:I have yet to decide whether or not to use the cnc as a point to point machine or nest the cabinet parts.
I would be interested to hear how you're approaching this, since I've had thoughts along the same lines as well. What mixes it up in my head is the question of the ratio of humans to machine(s). Conventionally, p2p can only beat nested base if we're assuming multiple operators, at least that's my understanding -- it's both a question of operating the machinery and moving parts. So, for a one man shop nested base should be superior, while a p2p process that has the required personnel will always win speed-wise. Of course, speed is not the only issue here, far from it, but it is one of them. Currently, my shop consists of me and my two employees, sometimes a fourth helper. We are pretty much exactly at the threshold where we should be able to impliment high speed p2p, at least if the helper becomes a full time employee. So, if we're just producing parts, p2p is probably the way to go. However, if we are producing parts for our own projects, then nested base would be much better because it frees up my employees and me to do the work the machines can not do, like assembly and finishing.
One thing that must also be taken into consideration is that if we go nested base, then the cad/cam phase becomes absolutely crucial. Currently, we can survive if I get ill for a couple of days, or fall behind in my design and cad duties, because my employees can step in, do the cutlists and machine without me. If the work flow depends on timely cad/cam, then I must be on top of it all the time, always, otherwise everything shuts down, or I have to train one or more of my employees to be able to fill in.
Anyway, that's some preliminary thoughts, I'd love to hear yours.

quote:My thought is to use a Spindle and two air drills to accomplish almost all of my machining. But for the price of two drills I could get another spindle z for the machine instead, which would be the better option?
If it's between two added air drills or an added spindle, I would probably go with the air drills if System 32 cabinets was the absolute majority of my work. I would prefer an added spindle/router and an air drill, if that's an option, however.

But that's just speculation on my part, having never worked with cnc.

quote:Looking for opinions on whether or not you think this is feasible, worthwhile, cost effective, or whether my whole line of thinking is whacked.

For what it's worth, I think it's feasible, worthwhile, cost effective and not at all whacked. You seem to have well articulated goals, which is perhaps the most important thing of all.

I've specced out so many different investment scenarios I've lost count: add another sliding table saw, another line borer, two shapers, p2p, you name it. I can't vouch for the soundness of my internal arguments, but I always come back to cnc one way or the other.

To be perfectly honest, in our trade, I think it really comes down to one thing. Are you comfortable with computers, and are you interested in your line of work?

If you can answer both of those questions with an honest yes (and if it's the first you fail on, you can always learn, but curiosity can not be taught), then cnc is for you.

Unlike almost any other type of woodworking machinery, cnc is not primarily about the machine, it's about the human. (One day it will be renamed, I think). The options are nearly endless, if you have a modicum of skills and a lust to learn and develop. It puts you in the driver's seat, and some people plain just don't have the handling skills, or worse, don't have the interest, to make that a winning proposition. But if you do, if you have that honest lust for what it is we do, then I think you and me are in for one heck of a ride.

In this world, what makes shopbot as a company truly stand out the way it does is not the price or quality of their offerings, imho. It's their human focus. Just look at how different cnc vendors advertise. Everyone uses images of intimidating steel monsters: power, mass, power , mass. But it's not about that. And lo and behold, then there's shopbot, who frames their ads with a human first. The human in the center. And then what that person does, the achievement of their work. In the background, yes, the machine.

This is the way it is supposed to be, imo. And this, their corporate philosophy, is what is making me take the plunge. I haven't seen the machine, there are no resellers, no support organization nearby, no nothing. I'm taking a chance here, something I would never ever do with any other piece of equipment, and I'm doing it because I have proof they put the human in the center, and that's what makes it click for me. Sometimes I have to pinch myself to realize it's true: I really am ordering 30k worth of equipment I've never seen from a company half way around the world. But then I remember this forum, and the whole philosophy of the Shopbot, and I'm ok. I'm a down to earth man, who have never cared much for slogans, but if I'd sum up my experience so far, this is what I'd say:

Putting the human in the driver's seat.

and

It's not a machine. It's a movement.

OK, I'll step down from the soapbox now