Starting over, one way or another

[woodturner]

As is always stated, this forum is incredible and I need to ask for some input. Our machine is like the “little engine that could.” We just never got out of the blocks with it. And, I am trying to make the decision to start over with it or sell it to a deserving home.

Basically, we have a 3 or 4 year old well outfitted 5x10 Alpha PRT(?) with dual “Z’s”, two VFD spindles (one Colombo, one HSD), an air drill, 15hp vac pump. We have Kcdw and Artcam Insignia. The spindles have NEVER been used with out warm up and cool down cycles. Generally, this takes longer than running the file we are going to cut. If this machine has run 80 hours since new, I’d be surprised. We are on our second spoil board if that is any indication. We only use it for the occasional curved piece of counter top or whatever. I should mention, we build commercial cabinets almost exclusively.

The plan was to have a semi-retired machinist/CNC teacher friend build and run it to make cabinet parts. He built it (to very tight tolerances I might add), and then moved away when his daughter gave him a grandchild. I understand. Since then, I have been trying to learn how to make this machine “sing.” But as someone said in a previous post, it’s like a shuttle launch to cut a part compared to other machines in our shop (blessing and a curse). The way it was assembled with 5 zone valves on one end, the computer on the other side, the control for the vacuum panel lift (Oh yeah, I forgot, we have one of those too) on the opposite end, the dust collector behind the machine, material loading on one end and off loading the other, controls for the vac pump on the wall, the VFD’s under the machine, it’s a pain to make anything efficiently. Plus I am stuck spending too much time cleaning the table. When he built the machine, my friend was used to thinking in metal working terms. Slow but very accurate. He just wasn’t thinking like a woodworker.

My employees do not want to learn this machine. I am busy trying to run the business. I feel overwhelmed at the prospect of stripping it down, re-plumbing the vac system, new plenum with more effective zones (for our sheet good sizes), implementing electro/pneumatic valves, inventing a pop-up pin locating system, etc. Also dumping the Insignia/Cabinetmaker software, which is horrible for my business, and starting over. If I can’t force fit it to become as user friendly as our old point to point they’ll never use it. Right now it’s SO MUCH MORE efficient to cut on one of the panel saws and go down the line.

So what it comes down to is if it’s worth spending all that additional money and time to get it to where someone besides me could run it (efficiently) or what this machine might be worth in the right hands (considering the money spent on it). Then maybe someday buy a machine that has all the convenience features built-in from the manufacturer. “Arguments” on both sides of the aisle are appreciated.

[bcondon]

Ed,

What does your business do? Does your need a machine like this -or is the machine a hinderance?

Are you satisfied with your business?
ARe you satisfied with your employees?

What can't you do today that this machine will help you with?

Can you tell me THREE things you want to improve with this machine. If it is just a nice to have, then it is probably taking up space that you wished you had.

Do you have the skills to really used this machine?

There are times that it best to do things the old fashion way ESPECIALLY if that is what satisfies YOU...

Good luck!

[carlcnc]

Ed
where are you located?
be patient , I will bet there is someone on this forum close enough to help you out,if not
I am in the NW, feel free to email me ,I will help all I can
sounds to me you have all the right stuff for this machine to be a major asset in panel processing.
Carl

[Gary Campbell]

Ed..
It sounds like you have a good machine that could be an invaluable asset to your cabinet business. I know that our PRS is a great asset to ours. After using it for a year and a half we would be lost without it.

Learning the software for both design and operation can sometimes be overwhelming, especially if the person is not motivated by ownership.

You may want to inform your employees that you ARE going to implement the ShopBot into your manufacturing process. In fact it will replace 2 of them. It will not, however, replace any person that knows how to operate it. That should motivate the crew.

You will be amazed at what you can do with one of these machines, especially in the cabinetry field. Do not compare a CNC router, especially one equiped as yours is, to a single purpose, easy to learn machine. If needed, this machine can replace any or all of the others. It will not do any operation better or faster than a single purpose machine, but it can be worked to do them all.

Email me at islaww@comcast.net and I can give you more information.
Gary

[chodges]

I guess I am very biased - I own a sign company, and we use our ShopBot A LOT.

Before buying, I asked myself how the ROI for this machine compared to other alternatives at the same cost. You have a VERY well outfitted ShopBot, and I'm sure this has been a major investment.

In my opinion, a ShopBot is really good to have when you need one-of-a-kind precise curved shapes, but it is GREAT to have if you can use it for repetitively cutting many identical parts. This is where you get to put a lower-salaried worker on a machine that will take work off of your higher-salaried workers, and your ShopBot will be more than paying for itself.

Your higher-salaried workers can use the "extra" time you created for them by doing something else that will make more money for your company.

Basically, your options are (1) to spend the time & money to get your ShopBot configured like you want and someone on your staff trained to use it, or (2) sell your ShopBot and use the proceeds to buy other machinery that will produce a better ROI.

It's hard for someone not familiar with your other machinery to advise you on which way to go, but I would treat this like any other capital equipment decision and go in the direction that will provide the biggest bang for my buck.

[landdesign]

Ed...
I second gary's insight..

employees often look at a new cnc as an effort too cut their jobs, when in face it can make their jobs easier.

you have a sweet machine, so its just a matter of motivating the guys to get on board.

I use my machine for far more than cabinets and in this economic downturn I'm glade I have more than a table saw to use in the shop to keep this turning out the $$.

pick a guy and tell him Monday morning he's running the machine... because that's what Bosses/owners have to do.

Erik

[myxpykalix]

Ed,
From my point of view based on your experience with the friend who moved away, you are going to be the one who learns how to use this and run it.
In turn, you can teach other employees to run and use it, but it would be a wrong decision to send an employee to any type of training. If they leave there goes your money. If you learn it and then train an employee and they leave, you train another, and so on..

You already have a woodworking background which necessitates some reasonable common sense and if you have that, you should have not have a problem learning what you need to know.
You might want to find a shopbotter local to you and hire him for a week or two to train you.

[woodturner]

Hey you guys are great! Thanks for all the responses so far. I want to especially thank you for really reading my long winded post. It’s the only way to get the picture.

To answer the first response (Bob), we primarily make commercial cabinets. I would like to automate the vacuum zones (on and off), have pop-up pins to precisely locate parts when necessary, vary spindle speeds for drilling versus routing operations, reduce cleaning times between cycles, and mainly SIMPIFY the steps so a non computer person can run it. Please keep in mind that our European machines have much more effective dust collection, or bore from underneath thereby eliminating the need. And, as far as me having the skills, “definitely maybe!” I admit that I am extremely covered up trying to keep the biz going (marketing, sales, estimating, design, cut lists, purchasing, scheduling, project management, etc.) which leaves little time to embrace this “love/hate” relationship.

To Charlie’s point, we are blessed with other equipment to cut and bore pretty quickly. Our vertical saw (with scoring) or slider, and our “point to point,” are so simple and quick to run, that they’re a spoiler to the long drawn out process to cut and bore on the router. As is our 50 spindle (dbl row) line bore when needed. Basically, unless it’s curved, they are hard to beat.

Lastly, our software combo was supposed to be seamless and smooth, but it has never (not once) functioned the way it was sold.

All that said, it seems the consensus is to stick with it if I can. But, I’ll ask again, if I can not dedicate the time to re-set everything up, can anyone give an idea of the resale value of what I have. It won’t do anybody any good if I go out of business while spending all my time and capital tweaking this machine to be a more effective panel processing tool.

Much thanks in advance!

[myxpykalix]

Here is another point to think about. Of all those other duties you mention you perform (marketing, sales, estimating, design, cut lists, purchasing, scheduling, project management, etc.) is any of that, that you can put on someone else to do to allow you to do this? Prioritize (or clone) yourself.
Did you say where you were located??

[bleeth]

ED: I too own and run a commercial casework business but do not have a point to point, therefore the bot is doing casework parts. If we did have a point to point then the bot would be doing only the custom parts for chasewalls, curved walls and tops, bending jigs, and countertop supports. For these things alone, the bot is an invaluable tool.
You need to shove it down your employees throat to operate it. Odd's are there is one guy out there who you can teach to operate it and will respond. He may not be qualified to pick up the cad/cam part, but operation is another story. You're Insignia software is sufficient for all the parts I listed above, once you learn how to effectively use it. My clients have gotten used to me driving the framing on their site when there is affected curved millwork and since I am supplying them with templates to "hold to" rather than the other way around, we have desks that match soffets and bars that match walls much simplified. This helps competitiveness. If you still have anyone in your shop swinging a handheld router on the end of a stick to make curves or cutting a stack of wall frames by hand with chase slots then the fault for underutilization of your tool is not theirs.

IMHO your machine is probably worth 15K on the open market plus or minus a couple thousand.