Worlds largest CNC capacity?

[jhicks]

If indeed my suspicion is correct and the notes posted on the Chinese Router thread were to stay on topic, I wonder if we can take the best of the forum and shop botters capabilities to address the business issues many of us have through an organized effort and community of like minded botters.
I note that the earlier thread was rapidly becoming one of the most active threads and represented many botters throughout the world with very interesting perspectives. I only started this to isolate the topic because I'm losing sleep thinking about the possibilities.
When I think of all the collective resources and capacity, put my business hat on, and consider the possibilities for 300+ botters in a coordinated procurement, sales, marketing, design, and development consortium, it blows my mind.
One example for your consideration. IF each botter spends $1000.00 per year on cutting bits the market opportunity for tool/bit suppliers is $300,000.00+++. Nice leverage and its only the tip of the iceberg!
IF it was possible (and it is) to have one file for one part cut on/by 50 separate machines/botters around the globe to offer a truly "on continent/regionalized" supply chain to an OEM, would they be interested? I think yes.
IF it was possible to offer a "corporate entity" a service to supply their signs globally in the same manner would they be interested? Starbucks anyone?
If you are interested in this broad brush concept please read the pertinent input under the CHINESE router thread and add to the thought process with your comments positive and negative to help me get this thought in or out of my head.
Would attempting such a challenge be a suitable topic for camps and Jamboree? A test case to run the same file, same material, same bit etc worth while?
It would require organization and support at the factory level and shop bot would need to see the benefits as well but, how would you like a web service that lists you and your services under a corporate or GROUP banner so potential customers could find their "local source". If 300 botters each contributed $100.00, thats a $30,000.00 advertising and web site budget. HMMM
Think about it. Am I crazy or is this a worthy idea? your thoughts are appreciated.

[mikejohn]

Jerry
Staying firmly on topic, there seems opportunities of formal co-operation and informal.
Certainly a pool of commercial projects would be useful, but needs some thinking on organisation.
One method woud be to post the outline of a project, which might be exchanged for other projects, The two get together, swap all the project details, and then market them in their own area. Or how about pucking up business then going to the project members to come up withthe best way of carrying out the project, everyone chipping in there parts. The AutoCad guys, or Rhino guys producing the greatest .dxf files, CAM guys doing there magic. Finishing guys (painting, carving) putting in their share. Then each contributor gets the chance to use the plans.
Someone could offer a complete project, plans method of construction and finishing, and charge a % fee, but I feel this would be hard to supervise.
Nothing to stop someone paying the first % fee, then making another 50 and saying nothing.
Theres also the possibility of projects beeing offered to a library, particularly by someone who has created such a product but has no interest in making it commercial.
As far as a buying group is concerned, if this means I cam buy from the USA, at discounted USA prices, and only pay the shipping fee, count me in!!
If this thread stays on track, everybody throws in ideas, however far fetched, we thrash them around, then maybe a concrete plan will come to fruition.
...................Mike

[richards]

Forming a CO-OP buying group might lead to lower prices - but someone is going to have to spend a lot of time managing the CO-OP. I would think that vendors would only want to deal with a single buyer, even if that buyer represented hundreds or thousands of individuals. To me that means that a legal business entity (CO-OP) has to be created. Members of that CO-OP (us shopbotters) would need to buy our products via the CO-OP, meaning that we would probably have to pre-pay the CO-OP for purchases and then have the purchase drop-shipped to our shop. For a CO-OP to be practical, vendors would have to discount their prices sufficiently so that members of the CO-OP would buy the products - after paying the CO-OP a percentage or fixed rate per order for handling the paper work. After all, running the CO-OP would be a lot of fun - for the first ten minutes. After that, it would just be work.

[jhicks]

Mike, you are indeed correct, work is involved but typically the restrictions you describe are not required except the legal and organization part. Generally in other industries, the members have the right and option to buy from member sources but no requirements to do so. Its simply a decision and choice whereby the prime supplier provides products and incentives but in no way are members obligated if that particular source is not useful or competitive.
The true question is do the benefits outweigh the efforts. Based on the fact that these groups exist and operate in many similar networked businesses the concept is already in place and some businesses find it useful or they would cease to exist.Probably don't need to reinvent the wheel here but use what is already in place and operating by others with modifications as required.
Think of it like Insurance groups. Pool the group as a customer base, negotiate a group discount, and OFFER it to those who choose to participate.
Maybe insurance would be a good benefit to have for the many small independants with bots too.
Unfortunately, work and organization would be necessary. There is no free lunch.
Beyond the buying aspect there are many other areas where the sum would be greater then the parts for marketing etc.

[gene_marshall]

Good stuff.
I think the most worthy part is the collective buying this group could do.
Even offering a "Material sponsorship" or something.
Where a shopbotter could go to a site or link and purchase from a supplier that would offer a discount to botters who found him from that link.

That way it would be easy for us all to find him and him to track where the sale came from.

This could work with material, bits, glue and paint etc.Most shipable (?) products.

I beleive that is more viable than sharing work.
Most shops covet their clients, as well as being secretive about pricing schemes. and those prices would vary across the country anyway.
Whereas the purchasing end is more about the collective making purchases that translate to bulk sales for any supplier.

As I said, Good stuff
Gene

[Brady Watson]

This idea is very similar to Thermwood's eCabinet Systems Co-Op that they have in place right now. The software generates code for their CNCs, and then you have the option to order materials and parts through their 'Co-Op' to take advantage of lower pricing.

Using the CNC capacity of ShopBot's around the world *could* work for high-volume production...but there are a number of things that would need to be arranged for it to work economically. Yes it could save on shipping...but you would have to really coordinate where the closest botter was, if he was reliable as far as getting the work done on time and other issues.

A large buyer's group would make a LOT of sense for ALL of us if we focused on a place that sells bits for instance. It's a win-win for everyone, and probably makes the most sense to start with bits...since we all use them!

-Brady

[jhicks]

On the bit subject, I think Shopbot is a distributor of Onsrud but I dont buy from them. Why? Because a local Onsrud distributor already gives me 20% discount off list and I have them the next day. Keep in mind I only buy 2 or 3 at a time whereas others buy in lots of 50 or more. So the question is, IF the "group" was to work with Onsrud (just as an example) and Shop Bot was to cooperate and help drag Onsrud along, what could be negotiated? 35%? Theres only so much suppliers and distributors can give BUT if Shop Bot or another distributor were to desire the collective Botters business, they would then gain more leverage with their supplier and drive their costs down also.

[bleeth]

A close price comparison of many of Thermwoods products a while back led me to the discovery that my local jobber sold them for the same or lesser pricing without having to factor in additional shipping costs and time waiting for products to be shipped. Many of their tools and equipment were offered for less from such difficult to find retailers such as Amazon! Pricing on Hafele vended hardware was the same as purchasing direct from Hafele. I've even seen Jet/Powermatic selling their own tools cheaper. I'm not taking anything away from Ken as a master of marketing but his intent in "giving" away e-cab, etc. is the development of Thermwood customers.
The idea of a product manufacturers co-op widespread geographically is an interesting concept but the logistics seem horrendous. What would be the solutions for variations in raw material, personal skill, verifiable output, etc? There are several online artisan galleries that function as a clearing house for different craftsman offering their specialties and since all purchasing goes through the site it is well controlled. I have not, however, spoken directly to any of the craftsmen direct to determine if their membership was actually benefitting them.

[gerald_d]

The Russians had these production co-ops (socialism/communism?) and we need to think why that didn't work before re-inventing the wheel.

Edited to add:
In my attempt to answer my own question, came across this webpage: The Co-op Story

[rhfurniture]

I can buy bits cheaper over the internet than from any other source at present, and they arrive the next day. I think it would be very hard work for anyone to set up a system that could beat that on time or price.
I always remember a radio conversation with the guy that started some internet search engine, who reckoned that the whole nature of business was going to change. With the passage of time, (and the rise of the internet) big business was going to become a thing of the past, and we were heading for an efficient small business direct to individial customer model, cutting out all middlemen and much bureacracy. It is hard to see that from where things stand at present, but I think things will change.
In order to buy big as a group, stockholding will be necessary, and stockholding as a business model is fast dying. And who says we all use the same cutters anyway (any takers for KWO out there?)

R.