Project Wizard

[ted]

[This is sort-of Economy related!]

I've been trying to get Bill Young to post something about ProjectWizard in response to Gerald Vowles commentary -- because we agree. We see great potential for ProjWiz to be a way to make really good CNC stuff available, either for ShopBotters to make for themselves, or for others.

What we're struggling with is coming up with a way to encourage people to create/contribute projects. Our thought has been (as Gerald suggests) that if projects are priced reasonably, piracy will not be that much of a problem ... especially if it is a parametric project such as the "Box Maker" example. At the same time, people who do the creative work should be able to make a little money. While we're hoping to be able to fund some project development ourselves, something like ProjWiz will only catch on if a group of creative people find it an outlet for their work and ideas. Hopefully, will also be a way for them to make a little money.

For the last year or so, we've been working at just getting a stand-alone web version up and running. It's now at www.shopbotprojectwizard.com. It no longer requires loading anything on your computer. Just go to the website and find a file you want to cut (customize it if that is an option) and download it.

The reason that Bill is not here talking about ProjWiz, is that he's involved in cutting a project for the Jamboree that we hope will become a terrific new ProjWiz project. It's a backyard shed/workshop/playhouse designed by the guys who did the MoMA house. The shed is cut out of plywood and then goes together with interlocking joints (see my column on the MoMa house) -- no nails or assembly skill required.

Our thought is that a customizable backyard structure might become a great opportunity for ShopBotters to produce -- and perhaps an opportunity to do some really creative variations. I expect we'll be hearing more from Bill about both the shed and ProjWiz.

Ted Hall, ShopBot Tools, Inc

[rhfurniture]

Ted,
I think that one one problem is that most of the really neat designs these days are generated by commercial designers - for example:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/mes...tml?1222754787
One that I really like is:
http://www.untothislast.co.uk/
Really practical cnc orientated furniture that looks good. Might it be worth approaching them to see if there is any way to get their designs onto project wizard - under license of course.

[gene]

Ralph,
I looked at the untothislast link and they have some neat looking stuff, no doubt. Why dont you and everyone else use their portfolio and other photos for inspiration and build off of that platform, There is a show i love to watch called The Big Idea with Donny Deuitch and the one thing that i see repeated so many times is the combination of two or three things to make a new product and there are people getting filthy rich off of this concept. Without a doubt shopbotters are the most inginius people on the earth. If you want it bad enough there is a way to achieve it. The question is can you figure it out? I believe if you can dream it it can be achieved.. I dont make excuses ,I make products,, Failure is NOT an option, and that in no way means i get it right the first time , or the second time, but like cutting a tree with an axe , it often takes alot of swings but rest assured the tree is coming down. Why not each one of us post a little project and lets all use all of our combined talents. Someone else may know a way to improve on a posted project that the originator may have never even thought of . Who knows ?

[hespj]

Interesting thread.

Project Wizard or IP.
I've been working on a few designs which have yet to be completed (they were intended to fill in the gaps when the regular work ran out, which still hasn't happened). Basically a range of playground ships from about 15' to 30' long, all ShopBot cut in marine ply. This project was for my own use, but it did occur to me that it might be of use to others. The stumbling block is how to ensure a fair payment system without piracy. It's all very well Ted saying that if the price is low enough piracy won't be an issue, but what's to stop somebody setting up as a playground builder and just churning them out having paid the royalty only once? Sure, if the royalty is small you only lose a small amount instead of a large amount, but that's small consolation. Ditto with smaller items - I don't see why this isn't a problem at all scales.

I think Project Wizard will struggle until this issue is given some serious thought. This is a shame as it would add another dimension to the ShopBot.

John

[bill.young]

Hi John,

Piracy is definitely a concern for any kind of file, especially CNC files that are just text files, and we have spent a lot of time thinking about how to protect the files without making the process too painful for the majority of honest users. That's the problem with all the various encryption and security schemes...they can always be circumvented by dis-honest people and make it hard on the honest ones.

For instance, the most secure way we've come up with would require the user to be connected to the internet so that the file was streamed while cutting, and to have each file tied to a specific control box so that only that tool could cut that file. That would require everyone to have internet access is their shops, though, and their internet connection would have to be much more reliable than mine is! It would just add complexity and frustration for the majority of honest users, and probably be breakable by someone that was determined to.

So the idea for setting a lower price is not to reduce the financial loss if someone cheats on a file, but to remove some of the incentive to cheat in the first place. We're thinking that if someone thinks that you're charging a reasonable price for a file they'll be more likely to continue paying the royalties. Unfortunately I'm sure that there will always be people that will cheat you, but maybe keeping the price down will discourage that, like having songs available from places like Amazon for a low price $.89 encourages people to buy music instead of downloading.

The best protection comes with customizable parametric designs, where a custom version is created every time. That cuts the incentive for cheating because someone would need EXACTLY the same size product as your file...not likely.

It's a sticky problem and we're certainly open to options...if anyone has suggestions please send them on.

Bill

[gerryv]

John, For those of us involved with intellectual property (IP), meaning patents, copyright, etc. there is no absolute or even near absolute guarantee. Not even the Microsofts of the world are immune so whether or not we like it NO ONE is going to be a able to offer you this level protection.

There may, however, be a silver lining in this case. Until now I've been grumbling to myself about having to take on SB code rather than standard G code. Assume that all of the projects are written in SB code. Assume also that as a result the potential thief is likely a 'botter and, therefore, pretty dependent on this forum and SB's tech service. Word has a way of getting around in this type of tight knit community and suddenly being shunned (if reasonable proof and a few quiet words offline from a moderator doesn't work first.....

The reality is that for all but the committed thieves, it just wouldn't be worth the risk as long as the acquisition price is not too high. Regarding price, we need to keep in mind that once your file development and prototype work is done, you have no more ongoing costs except maybe some fine-tuning based on feedback or even new expanded versions that could increase your sales. Therefore, the revenue stream is no longer tied to or limited by your direct labour. You don't need to make as much because you're still making money with your Shopbot when these sales are coming in automatically. That assumes that the project is right for the market and good value of course.

Maybe a good discussion topic would be for Shopbot, the company, or even a group of established experts from this group to take a look at providing a means by which the projects could be tested, verified and perhaps even certified as well as having their ISP setup a user feedback capability. If they handled it directly, there would obviously need to be a way for them to recoup their ongoing costs to a degree that works for them but that's business. But, who knows, maybe it could be handled other ways as well.

Just figured I'd pass on my thoughts in this regard as I'm not at a point where I can offer anything back to the forum on the technical side of things yet.

[hespj]

Bill, Gerald, thanks for the feedback. I wasn't so naive as to think that there might be a 100% secure method of protecting IP, especially in such a small scale, relatively low tech area as the ShopBot. Also my concern isn't so much that a design would be circulated freely to others, as is the case with software or music, so much as the same user paying once and using many times.

I think the low cost idea probably is the best idea to date, but it does have it's shortcomings:

i)....It really only works if it's a design that the designer already has - it's not worth creating a design from scratch for resale. So the design will more likely be a specific design rather than the more generic design required for distribution.

ii)...Low cost can be seen as low value, which might have a negative effect - not sure what at present.

iii)..Each sale will inevitably generate some work for the deisgner - sales, support - and the low cost just might not make the exersise worthwhile. Related to this, there are other fixed costs (payment method for example) which make up a bigger percentage if the price is low.

On the positive side, people don't rate IP very highly (despite it's worth) and are more likely to enter into this way of working if prices are low.

I think the best idea I've come up with which addresses some of these points is to use a low cost per item model, but charge a higher amount (perhaps 5 or 10 times the single license price) on the understanding that the buyer, and only the buyer, can make an unlimited number of items.

After all, this is in effect what happens when you buy software or music.

Comments?

[rhfurniture]

Let me outline how I work and how projwiz could be useful.
Most of what I do is highly intricate chair/table construction, in which the bot plays a large, but not the major part. My customers are mainly design companies, and they own the IP on what I make. The bot is a tool, and mostly I machine hardwoods to shapes directly from customer drawings, adding appropriate joinery along the way. It is unlikely that I will ever have designs suitable for projwiz, but sometimes I get "walk-ins" that want something. If there was a web site with some 50 or so chair designs, that I (the customer) could pay say £20 (usd40) design fee, make easily, and all benefit, then we could sit down and choose one. But the design must be interesting, fluent, of good structure, neat detailing and in the case of chairs, comfortable.
Sort of design franchising is the way I would see it!

R.

[ted]

Our thought has always been that there would be several levels of pricing, depending on whether it was a single license, or a license for production of a specific number (earlier versions of ProjWiz indicated this, but it may not be obvious now). In all cases, to the degree the pricing seems fair, I'd like to believe most people will behave honorably.

As Bill mentioned, for items that can be made parametric, to the degree that many versions will be required there will be additional encouragement to pay the modest price for each variation. Parametric designs also encourage non-ShopBotters to create their own custom version of a project and then find a ShopBotter to cut it for them.

Our thought on the issue of certification is that it can provide a real additional incentive to purchase items created by a particular developer. Rather than some sort of file evaluation, though, we're thinking that the development of a strong reputation on the part of the developer offers the best certification. If a developer's designs are known to cut and assemble well and that they are supported by good instructions and resource lists, etc. that designer will be able to command higher prices and allow purchasers to buy with confidence. We're hoping that some of this reputation can be provided by way of the rating system on ProjWiz, and by ongoing blogs/commentary on specific projects.

Ted Hall, ShopBot Tools

[gerryv]

Ted, Yes, as a waiting "client" that approach makes good sense to me as it is "value" based and, therefore, how I would make my own buying decisions. I'd certainly pay more for a design by Henrik and his equivalents than I would for one of my own :-) I also recognize that for the guys and gals who need more volume, John's comment on a one-time (volume) license makes real good sense. Maybe this is a new market opportunity for the existing 3D art-work guys too.

Let me be the first guy to commit $500 out of my modest, fixed income over the next year for the best value I can find on Project Wizard. That's tough for me but I believe it's that important for all of us looking at this route.