Chinese CNC Routers

[mziegler]

Has anyone take notice that there been lots of Chinese cnc routers for sale the last couple months on EBay? There is a 4x8 cnc router listed now that has a ball screw in the X Y & Z axis, the rails are 3/4 dia., the Z axis is 6" and has t-slot tabletop. The buy it now price is only 3,999. The item number is 6020778680. The listing say that they are not junk, but are they junk or not? Will they hurt Shopbot? or the resale of our machines? Any thoughts on this? Mark

[mikejohn]

Do not under estimate the threat to manufacturers from China.
If the items are junk at the moment they will try to improve them.
It has been discussed here, and many other places, that the growth of Chinese manufacture is a real threat to many western companies.
Whilst shopBot has the superb back up they have, there position should remain strong. Manufacturers of mass-production items that need little or no back up have real reason to worry.
It has been described as standing in the middle of the road dodging the cars and trucks of normal business problems, not noticing you are standing on a railway track with a 500 ton train thundering towards you.
Whatever you are making, try to personalise it, make made to measure, find a niche, avoid mass production.
Just look at the American (and European) industries that have dissapeared because of foreign imports.
I make toys, amongst other things.
88%, I will repeat 88% of all toys sold in the world are made in China.
Good old names like Disney and Barbie have "Made in China" printed all over them.
Be prepared to change often if you wish to stay in business.

...............Mike

[jhicks]

You gotta take a stand somewhere. I am sure I'm not the only one who has watched their industry move to China and found mself happily able to move forward with the Bot. I never want to go back to big business and commodity parts but know the China threat is no longer a threat, its an economic war which we are rapidly losing. I hate to think what will happen when they electrify that country and my kids try to understand how we lost our global power in manufacturing but I'm afraid thats where its headed.
The good news is many folks are tired of it and searching for that unique custom, one of a kind piece so Bot On Boys. There are definately plenty of opportunities out there.

[rustnrot]

Let me get this staight, the next time somebody asks me the specs on a boat I am building I think I will say "It just like the most perfect boat in the world but without some of the bells and whistles. If you did any research at all you know you can spend millions of dollars for a boat. This is no $100 thousand dollar boat but is priced 10's of thousands less than other boats without all the bells and whistles". There! Described it perfectly!

That ought to do it in the eyes of this dude........

[Brady Watson]

Over the past 2 years there have been several new CNC machines listed on Ebay from various sources that simply do not exist in the physical world...a bit of smoke and mirrors designed to simply feel out the demand for these tools and nothing more. I have inquired about several of them only to find that aside from a prototype, the machines were not 'yet' for sale. On a few occasions, these places told me straight out that it was modelled directly off of the ShopBot, 'but better'...This example that Mark posted appears to be real in the physical world, but I doubt very much that it could compete against ShopBot in the real world (meaning the USA...with no offense to my ShopBot brothers in Europe et al)

My reasons for this include the fact that it doesn't include control software (you have to pay for Mach3 and figure out how to use it...for a newbie this is not easy)...it includes no design software...again, if you never owned a CNC before you're in for a suprise. We are REALLY lucky to have PartWizard...The motors on teh machine are unipolar...while they will move the machine, they are indicative of A) Cheap electronics to drive them and B) Lackluster performance. The machine uses 'ball screws'...these are probably cheap, and in my book not the best solution for a CNC router due to contamination. The Z-axis screw makes sense for accuracy, but still has 'swarf' issues. It says it has a 2HP SPINDLE...looks to me like a cheap PC-style Harbor Freight router...but the biggest issue here is support. We're not talking a table saw or drill press here. We are talking about a robotic tool in the entry-level price range. Without support, training and a knowledge base to refer to, this is nothing more than a hunk of steel to a newbie user...(perhaps even a novice user as well) need I go on?

If we are going to compare apples to apples, then let's compare a PRT with no software (control or CAD or CAM) with steel table shipped to your door (not $1000 to get it to your nearest PORT and then to your door)...You will find by the time that you add everything up that the PRT is just about the same price...with a LIFETIME of support from an established brick & mortar 10yr old company, right here in our backyard.

Maybe I am preaching to the choir...but I am extrememly opposed to Chinese imports, especially in the tool world. They are junk. They take good working jobs away from our family and friends. On many occasions I have turned away work from people looking to machine a prototype to send over to China for mass production. As an American, I am doing my small part by paying extra for goods to keep my frends and family working...and to keep our money HERE. Pardon my ranting, but it makes me sick to watch the largest manufacturing/industrial nation throw it away to China.

-Brady

[paco]

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The more you spend around (near) the more your surounding will purchase from you; this money back! Spread the words!

I say choose products that you can by localy as a standard and only import if needed...

Sadely, it tend to be hard to get local products; one have to be aware and look CLOSELY.

[gerald_d]

So you don't want the Delta VFD's, or the MeanWell power supplies? Why is stuff from Japan (V-rollers, Oriental Motor) okay - but the stuff from their neighbour must be banned??

[Brady Watson]

Gerald,
We are not talking about a $200 Meanwell or $500 VFD...we are talking about several thousands of dollars and where that money goes. BIG difference. If those things were available from the US, I am sure that ShopBot would be inclined to go with the American part over the imported part for several reasons.

You have a penchant to play devil's advocate...You know as well as I do, that you do the best that you can with what's available. There are no more American made TVs, VCRs, DVD players, very few phones (if any now) etc, etc. If they made an American XYZ, then that would be my 1st option for MOST goods. An American samurai sword for example, would most likely be inferior to one purchased from Japan. But this is just what I do...others may just opt for the 'cheap' way out...which I think just sells out the next generation to pay for this one. There are few things that are also made outside the States that are superior in quality. People still think that Japanese cars are SO much more reliable than American cars...This is complete nonsense carried over from that days when this WAS true for about 15 years. They all break regardless of make...so buy one that is made here by one of your friends or neighbors.

Gearald, how do you feel about this issue as it relates to South Africa? Is this an issue there? Do you have pride of country and execute things for the good of your family & countrymen?

-Brady

[bob_lofthouse]

It's interesting to see the point of view of americans.

Being british I can say that my country has been there and lost that.

If you read any History book the lesson you should learn is that great empires don't last for ever.

The chinese are the next great industrial empire to emerge but even the fabric of their society is starting to change.

I know of quite a few companies who have considered moving their manufacturing to china (Ie just importing goods) and the biggest complaint I hear is that the prototype is very high spec but subsequent products fall short of the required standard.

Just my 2 cents after coming back from the pub... hic!

[stevem]

I think it's a safe bet that the Chinese will never be successful in flooding North America with cheap Bully Beef.