Freakin Economy!

[john_r]

How is it in your part of the country? I just got laid off 3 weeks ago, haven't received a unemployment check yet. (taking up to 10 weeks to process in AZ) Lost the last 4 jobs, I bid (Sorry to those that I had asked for some help with, that never came too) I Can't get work even at 40.00 an hour shop rate. Now most of the jobs that paid 20-30 per hour employers are offering 10-14 per hour. Is this happening to any of you guys?

[g_hinton]

Yep got laid off from my full time job 3 weeks ago and is also slumping in Savannah.

[harryball]

I feel for everyone in this economy. I've been contacted by at least 2 dozen former co-workers that have been laid off and are looking for work. Unemployment 8.5% and rising.

To keep from being too blue, go volunteer at a Hospital or Childrens Hospital for a day a week or even a few hours. It makes you appreciate what you do have and consider this... it's networking.

/RB

[dakers]

Ohio is in transition. We lost the steel mills, Hoover company, Diebold and Timken are outsourcing more labor.
Technology is advancing so fast that we do not have the people educated to service it.
There will be a time gap for educatonal programs to come up to speed with technology. Most likely the job you have now was not even available when you were born. Then you have the air quality laws and zoning issues to deal with for sign companies.
The media wants to keep you coming back so they give you expanded presentations of bad news to make you worry. Very little good news from the media. The advertising is geared to make us unhappy unless we have certain products, etc.
so we are under attack for sure.
When people are stressed they usually go back to something that gave them comfort in the past that is the danger for some. There are alot of voices thay are vying for our attention. I climb the stair way of emotion to get to the place i want to be which is to have faith, step out in faith, do not listen to "demons" who tell lies about me or my future. I want to attack life, have unconqurable gladness, believe in unquestionable truth and move forward regardless. I do not mind hearing the word NO when it comes to sales because at the end of the NO's is a yes. I may not have the comforts that i have now in 5 years but that is ok. I really need to think about my grandchildren, children, family and invest in them. I do not want to bury my head or be delusional. There is faith foolishnes and presumption and sometimes it is hard to discern. I have groups of encouraging people around.
i believe the only thing to fear is fear.
however when on the stairway to better thinking fear is one of the steps. Since i have adapted this mentality i am just as happy now as ever have been most of the time. I do hear voices lying to me about myself and my ability to provide but i choose not to listen to them. I know they want to destroy me.I have said too much but maybe not enough. just trying to keep it general for a public posting. and describe what is working for me at this time. I do see some light.

[thewoodcrafter]

Our economy here in the high desert of Southern California is based on construction.
Well that bubble burst Nov 2006. Well it trickles down from that. A local glass manufacturer closed the plant, restaurants have gone out of business, many mom and pop businesses are gone, Circuit City is gone, a 105 year old local department store chain is liquidating and unemployment is over 10%. I get at least 3 people a week come by the shop looking for a job.
Well I'm still here. I'm not going without a lot of kicking and screaming. I will be very lucky to make it through this recession but that's the plan. I will be in an excellent position when things do come back. Whatever it takes to get to the next job I am willing to do.
We will see.

[ljdm]

"American made financial fiasco sinks the world." Gimme a break. Greed caused it, worldwide greed. I'm sure there is at least ONE Canadian banker, mortgage company, etc, that is guilty of the same as American, Asian, British bankers.
I don't understand why you would even want to post on this greedy evil american made forum.

[gabepari]

What financial fiasco? I was a little slow around Christmas, but that's normal.

[wberminio]

I thought is was this years cold,icy,winter!

[bcondon]

Spoke to a good friend in central Maine and he said that the negative effects are just hitting Maine. Maine tends to live poorer edge but most everyone can work. Well, the saw mills are all closed for 8 weeks (which has not happened ever)because no one is purchasing hardwood which means the loggers can cut all the trees they want but they can not be delivered...

They got SO much snow this year that when he was logging, he had to bulldoze roadways into the woods and then hand dig (with snow shovels) to get to the base of trees. The ground was frozen then

Now the thaw is just starting and we call it MUD season so you can not drive a logging truck anywhere except hardpack for the next several weeks. (hence he can not cut white cedar on his band saw mill!)

In Massachusetts, the construction industry is very slow... The metal work contractors (welders, etc) are completely quiet.

I work in the video on demand business from your telecom and cable company business supplying software. Our business is up because families are staying home and ordering movies on cable instead of the movies, can be a family night and eat your own popcorn and chips. I feel VERY lucky
and thank God while trying to help others.

[joewino]

My business is signs - mainly dimensional signs, and we are busier now than in recent memory.

Thankfully, we are selling work and have a backlog of several months.

Things are slowing down here in Texas, but not like so much of the rest of the country. New homes are still being built and the price of existing homes is staying steady - actually have risen to a small degree. Unemployment in our area is still low, but folks are getting laid off more now than in the past, but nothing to compare with some other states.

The evening news is depressing, so I try not to watch or listen - just keep plodding away trying to get my signs out the door.

[Brady Watson]

Business is banging right along here in my neck of the woods (Philly). While some of my regular customers have slowed, many new customers in completely new areas of work have cropped up. I'm not sure what brought it on, but my laser scanning business has the equipment tied up for at least the next 3 weeks - which I like better than slinging plywood on & off the table...

-B

[gene]

I,m sure this post will draw some heat, But here goes.(Everyone is entitled to their opinion)
Did you ever stop to think that when the oil prices shot up and the price of everything followed is when this whole thing started. Our former President did nothing but watch and get richer . He could not be reelected and was at the end of his useful political life so he let all the people who had invested millions of dollars to put him in office regain their investment rewards ( big oil) thru record profits. I know that in my buisness that if the price of raw materials increase so do my product cost but all the margins stay in preportion . Why did the profit margin increase so much if the demand for oil was down? Around here people live very modestly and with the fuel prices trippleing it was a matter of choice to pay the mortgauge or to buy fuel to get back and forth to work.After a few missed home payments it adds up quickly and starts the snowball effect . When banks dont have the monies coming in its hard to lend what you dont have.IN MY Opinion i think that our monitary system was so delicately balanced before this happened that the people who allowed this to happen didnt realize the effects of their greed.

[terryd]

Still don't think my bank in Canada would float a $500k mortgage with a $30k annual income like Bank of America did in California for a gardener. Our banks in Canada don't lend money period. Recession or Boom therefore they are not exposed to the mess now facing the world. The downside of this is of course is that we can only grow our businesses through our own personal means which means that most self employed Canadians are relatively safe and picking up the slack from the high flyers that are crashing all about us. We almost love recessions as a means of leveling the playing field but since we do loose jobs due to corporate failures the joy is tempered.. With Chrysler threatening to stop producing cars in Canada if our Government doesnt bail them out again I think we should bid them adieu and adopt the "fortress" mentality also. No build here, no sell here. ever.
My 2 cents

[gene]

Terry
I like the words you said 'as a means to level the playing field' . It seems like everyone would have known that theese times were comming when the USA signed the NAFTA bill . When you are the one ( USA) that has the highest product cost,the highest material cost, the highest labor cost and the highest cost of living, and put it against the rest of the worlds costs even an idiot can know whats going to happen. Until our cost get more in line with other industral nations we cant truely compete. Everytime you average anything the highest goes down....

[terryd]

Wait until the $2500 Cdn. Nano car produced in Mumbai India hits the shores. This door was opened when Mercedes was allowed to produce the Smart car using the fringes of safety standards and protocols. In the name of being green was how this SMART vehicle circumvented regulations. In the name of being frugal is how the NANO will prevail. The writing is on the wall. This is indeed a global economy and any made in America plan for the good of Americans will not succeed. And any made in Canada plan for Canadians will be crushed under the weight of our southern neighbours interest as has been the case in the past. We are just a lot more used to not getting what we want, when we want it and how we want it. Maturity sucks but it does more often than not bring comprehension of matters beyond our immediate control.

[rb99]

Anyone heard of Freidmanism?

RB

[terryd]

As a former Economist yes I have Richard. Milton is dead now and I wish that his misguided and disfunctional policies should have departed with him. Still believe in the following writings who's authors name escapes me at the moment.

"More than half a century ago, the British economist John Maynard Keynes wrote that dogmatic free market capitalism assumes that the worst of people, with the worst of motives, will somehow make the best choices for everyone else. As a result of this critique, a whole generation of economists focused on finding the best way for the state to regulate the economy. They wanted to make sure the market didn't screw over most of humankind while making a select few immensely wealthy." OOOP's this was written half a century ago therefore it must be irrelevant. Right ? Its clear that the lack of Government regulation bear a smattering of blame.

[rb99]

Bush and his buddies where fans...

Rumsfeld actually studied under him?

RB

[brock_poling]

I think that we all would be well advised to dust off Francisco d'Anconia's speech in Atlas Shrugged.

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1826

[thewoodcrafter]

So the blithering Canadians are pointing fingers at the U.S.!!! I think you have been out in the cold too long.

Hey, keep your twisted politics to yourself. Aa
We don't need it on this forum.

[terryd]

Recessions, depressions deflation inflation and fiscal financial policy all have very little to do with money. If we lived in a cash only society or economy the above words would have no meaning. In a cash society you would negotiate the value of a commidity and then pay with cash the ageed to amount. In our current system the actual price of the commodity has become irrelevant and how the payment is to be made is what we negotiate. That is the thrust of the G20 summit now taking place. The "leaders" are trying to keep the wheel spinning long enough so that the actual economies can grow enough to support the debt burden now in place...
Now I recall why I quit this business so long ago...the problems so simple, the explanations so complex and the cure doesn't exist...beer....beer....I...need...beer

[rb99]

"So the blithering Canadians are pointing fingers at the U.S.!!! I think you have been out in the cold too long.

Hey, keep your twisted politics to yourself. Aa
We don't need it on this forum."

I used to think "Made In USA" was a good thing. I would not play a guitar if it was not Gibson or Fender and Made In USA.

Now I don't want it-and you Roger, reaffirm my position. Bully.

RB

[terryd]

On a closing note for me and this amusing thread..... For the life of me I can not believe that my Prime Minister was in the can doing #1 or #2 while the rest of the world was having a group photo taken.....He too was an economist...jeeeeez...can't catch a break...He claims he was having a briefing....must be code....hehehehe! Smile guys you have but one life to live....

[myxpykalix]

boy, boys, boys...lets all play nicely together..

nothing like politics and religion to bring out heated opinions.

Just remember opinions are like Aholes, everyone has one, and it seems like plenty Aholes have opinions! lol...

[ljdm]

Richard - if you don't think "Made in the USA" counts anymore - why don't you and your opinion of us stay where you are. I sure as heck wouldn't go to toronto, montreal, quebec, etc and do any Canada bashing, why do you feel you have to do it here. Besides - this is a Shopbot forum for 'Botters, to help each other, share ideas, etc.... NOT a political forum.

[rb99]

Ok- I guess I like Noam Chomsky, the show Real Time With Bill Maher, Free Speech TV, Democracy Now, Amy Goodman, Link TV and others too much.

Sorry.

RB

[ljdm]

Terry................I DON'T agree with you "Beer, Beer, Beer I need beer" For me, it's Rum, Rum, I need rum....
We're all in the same boat, just using different oars to navigate with.

[terryd]

Heck imaging what we could accomplish with two oars the same length

[bleeth]

Why most of the world is where it is at economically at this time may be a fascinating discussion but is a hi-jack of the original posters question. So to get back on track:

Here in South Florida the Residential end of construction crashed ages ago. At this time the Commercial end is slowing down quite a bit. As a commercial millwork company, that means it is now starting to hit me. I've laid off a couple of guys and have less install subs working. Contracts are smaller and some of my General Contracting clients who were heavily invested in a limited number of end users are in deep trouble. Some GC's in Health Care that were doing 20-30 million a year have a couple of hundred thousand on the books and have laid off most of their superintendants and admins. In my end some of the larger plants have idle equipment and some millwork companies that have been around for decades have closed up shop.
To get through the tough times we have spread out our focus and reduced margins. Residential remodel is starting to make a come-back and, hopefully, that is the first sign of a general recovery. Those of us who have worked the hardest to keep our reputations for customer service up are still getting new contracts, but the type of product may be different. For example, until recently my company concentrated strictly on cabinets, paneling, and standing and running trim. We did doors only of they were a custom wood item. Our most recent contracts have included doors and hardware, even if they are hollow metal! For years our work has been all in our local area but right now we are finishing production on work for a hotel that we are trucking to St. Paul to install.
Like others above, I get several people a week coming by looking for work and the hollowness in their eyes is heart-breaking. I get calls from craftsman I know who are far from the bottom of the barrel and they have no work. The Manager of my bank drops me personal e-mails asking how I am doing!! Her company just laid off around 6%. My regular suppliers coming in for their sales calls tell me how "lucky" I am. I don't bother to tell them that luck has nothing to do with it. We are making it so far because we are pushing like heck to do whatever it takes to keep our backlog up. That means increased Marketing, cutting waste, and staying focused.
I don't think I'll be taking any big cruises this year!!

Dave

[ken_rychlik]

Most folks I speak with have taken hits of 40-50 percent on their IRA's and investments. I'm sure that has to hit all across the country to some extent.

I won't play politics either.

I have a little work going on, but not a backlog. I have grown slow like Terry suggested and paid for everything I bought with profits along the way. I can make it a year or maybe two with slow times, but I don't see going out and getting a job somewhere else.

I am going to use the slow times to learn and be better prepared for when the fast times return. They always do.

Kenneth

[ljdm]

Doing the same as Kenneth, using the down time to perfect techniques, experiment new techniques, get ready for things to pick up again. Learning to be more economical than I was. It's been a learning experience, this recession, but if you learn from it's effects, you can benefit from it(have to be philosophical about it, crying isn't going to accomplish anything). Still think it's worth riding out the storm, one boss is enough(wife), can't see wanting to go out and have to take orders from another boss.

[jamesgilliam]

Like Kenneth and Lou I will use the slow time to learn new ways of doing the same thing. My business is slow, but I have not been out beating the bushes looking for any either, but I have been doing alot of volunteer things for the church we go to. Robert B is right when he says that it will make you be glad for what you have. Jo-Anne retired from work when she became disabled, and I quit the job I had to be with her. My former employer is booming and has tried to get me to come back for the last three years saying I could "write my own contract", but I am not interested in getting back into the rat race. Since my self-unemployment we have aquired land, built a new shop, and I am currently building our house next to the shop. Everything we have done has been paid for at the time it was done. Nobody holds any paper on our lives. We own what we have and will not get back into debt. Our only debts are utilities, insurance and taxes. Construction on the new house has slowed down due to funds, so we see what is left at the end of the month and invest that into our home. I know I could just walk into the bank here and get the money to finish the house but can't stand the idea of renting money. Right now we live in part of the shop and will continue to do so until the house is totally finished. Jo-Anne started putting stuff into the kitchen cabinets before I could even complete them and I don't want to have to wash everything with the mess sanding and finishing them would make. The town we live close to is small, less than 300 people, but I have not heard of anyone being laid off. We count ourselves to be very blessed with what we have.

Now with that said; Would I like a couple of paying jobs, of course I would. But they will come in time. Do I have leads for finding some, a few have surfaced over the last month or two. Will I, if the jobs don't surface, go looking for work elsewhere, no way! Like Lou said "one boss is enough". Yes the times now are hard, but going through hard times builds strength. Better days are ahead of us all if we can just hold on through this storm.

[benchmench]

There may be a silver lining in all of this for shopbotters/entrepreneurs as the largest and oldest "trees" of the old econonmy are falling away, it provides "sunlight" for the new.

For those that can envision new ways of "filling a need" or "protecting from loss" with their make-anything-you-can-draw Shopbot, you have an advantage that most people don't.

For the next great idea or product, someone will buy. Compare the cost of labor of your Shopbot making something with the cost of labor in Asia/India plus shipping.

We know cabinets and signs are good markets for Shopbotters. It's time to think oustside of those.

[joe]

So far, down here in Oklahoma, we aren't feeling as much financial pressure. However I've turned off the TV. It's too scary.

I feel sorry for those who have lost their jobs and struggeling to keep afloat. It's scarry and depressing. And just when a person needs a positive attitude it's difficult to maintain.

Perhaps we can find some good coming out of this. I now realise how silly our econcomics have been. And this down turn may set us on a better path.

What won't help is finger pointing and blame. We are where we are, and to fix the problem takes teamwork. We've smooth run our economy out of gas and blame won't help. Reasonable, carefull planning is the answer.

I purchased a copy of this wagon train from the State of South Dakota archives. It's was taken 1865 showing our ancestors headed across the bad lands. Their hopes must have been high. Nothing else would would keep them going. They laid the future for all of us. This where we came from and what we're made of.


8985

I was struck with the challenge these brave souls had. There wasn't a warm shower or nice soft bed with clean sheets at days end. No lumber to make warming fire to cook by. And if you had a toothache or became ill you really were in for it. Our "Great Depression" wasn't anything compared to this. The benchmarks for difficult times was the war between the states and the movement west.

Aren't we lucky today to have such a wealthy country?

[dray]

There has been quite a few posts on this..

The original one I was following.

Dave Rosenbleeth was saying his business has not slowed a bit. SO I took a look at it, realized he was in Commercial and immediately jumped into Commercial as most of these contracts have been held for 2 years +. The commercial thing soured me on my love for carpentry a bit, but it paid the bills.

Since then we did the Newport Benihana, an 11 story hotel in Long Beach Ca and now we are doing 66 cabinets for a new Marina in San Diego..

In the middle of all of this the residential started trickling back in.

So what Im trying to say is read the posts and ADAPT.

I feel bad for the people out of work, but I have my own employees to worry about. These guys have been faithful to me for over 15 years and Im going above and beyond to make sure they have their rents paid.

Looking back at the great depression, soup lines, hundreds of thousands of people displaced and homeless.

I am grateful for the opportunities that I see around me and the ones I prop myself up to take on.

I hate $$ but $$ brings security. Security allows people the freedom to chase what ever ideas come to mind.

I googled around for who made $$ in the last 3 recessions and also the great depression. What products they sold, what they did to survive and keep their families fed and what some did to create lifetime security.

Many people bought up foreclosures, many people bought belly up businesses and either turned them around or sold them off piece by piece.

Reading it sounds kind of callous but you need to do what ever it takes to feed your family, your employees and the people you care about in a secure position.

There are opportunities abound but they are different from our normal ones.

One of my good friends bought a house at the top of the southern Ca bubble and has a 6k mortgage. What he did was bought up 3 forclosed condos at just over 100k per and rents for $1600 and he makes about $450 per month on each.

It takes sand to do this type of thing and I admire him for doing it. His wood flooring business was not paying the bills but with the little added income he can pay his bills and now has 3 valuable assets that cost him nothing.

In the future these will rise in price giving him the option to sell or to simply keep collecting rent.

[dray]

THX Brock. Excellent READ!

Francisco d'Anconia's speech




So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Anconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears not all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor--your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money, Is this what you consider evil?

"Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions--and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.

"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made--before it can be looted or mooched--made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.'

"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss--the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery--that you must offer them values, not wounds--that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best that your money can find. And when men live by trade--with reason, not force, as their final arbiter--it is the best product that wins, the best performance, the man of best judgment and highest ability--and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil?

"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality--the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.

"Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants: money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth--the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one, would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve the mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Money is your means of survival. The verdict you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money--and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.

"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another--their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

"But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich--will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt--and of his life, as he deserves.

"Then you will see the rise of the men of the double standard--the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money--the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law--men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims--then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion--when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing--when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors--when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you--when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice--you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that is does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked, 'Account overdrawn.'

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world? You are.

"You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while you're damning its life-blood--money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, whose names changed, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves--slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer, Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers--as industrialists.

"To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in history, a country of money--and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being--the self-made man--the American industrialist.

"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose--because it contains all the others--the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money.' No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity--to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.

"Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards, and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide-- as, I think, he will.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns--or dollars. Take your choice--there is no other--and your time is running out."

[myxpykalix]

Come on all you "Negative Nellies", turn off the F'ing news and stop complaining! Most if not all of us have lived thru hard downturns.
Does anyone recall the days of Jimmy Carter and 22% interest rates, oil embargo, long gas lines, hostage crisis and other problems in the 70's and 80's?

Comparitively speaking this is not nearly as bad (yet). If you watch the news you would swear the world was going to end tomorow, but go open your front door, look out and you'll see it's still there. 90% of all of this is perspective and perception. The problem is that it is like domino's and one thing affects the next. Go hug your kids and grandkids and it won't seem so bad.

(do you think i could make it as a motivational speaker?)

[henrik_o]

Regarding the US recession, I try to follow the blogs of Krugman, DeLong, Johnson & Kwak, etc. They're all more or less run of the mill Keynesians, so I spice it up with some chicago/austrian style libertarian blogs and the odd (very odd) GOP conservative blog.

So far, there's in my mind three articles that have really stood out in attempting to grasp the enormity of what is happening.

It's Matt Taibbi's tome in Rolling Stone; The Big Takeover (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover). If you prefer less cursing (but honest cursing, for once), former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund, Simon Johnson, writing for the Atlantic; The Quiet Coup (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200905/imf-advice).

The third is an absolutely fascinating insiders tale of how the Credit Default Swap weapon of mass financial destruction came about, but I forget where I read that and who wrote it.

--^*^--

To get back to the topic, business is reasonably brisk. I credit two things for this. First, when the recession struck Sweden, some of the bigger actors in this sector that had overextended themselves went bust right away. The banks called their credit line, and they couldn't meet even the end of month payments.

Yes, demand dropped by say 20% more or less overnight, and continued dropping. But productive capacity was hit even harder: there was probably a 30-40% slaying at the top. For every actor that is not bankrupted, as long as demand does not drop as fast as productive capacity, you win.

This meant more work for those of us who are lower on the food chain. In volume, my requests for bids are the same, but I get to bid on much larger projects now. It hasn't materialized as increased work, but I do feel I've kind of moved up a division. A normal bid for me used to be in the $10k-$30k line, now I'm working on some bids that involve $150k and more. I may not get them, but I'm in there making contacts, getting to know people etc.

I even, and yeah, this is true, got an invitation to join a somewhat prestigious local masonic lodge the other week. Bizarre, but a sign of the times I guess. They must have seen a rather distinct drop in the mean wealth of their cadre, and are looking for up and comers to replenish the ranks.

Second, the Swedish government quickly started a tax rebate deal where for any home improvement or rebuilding you could deduct 50% of the labour part of the bill from your taxes. While this has not meant that much for my business, it does provide a kind of safety net. If the higher margin projects peter out, I can get into that and plausibly survive, though it won't exactly be fattening work.

[zeykr]

Jack said '(do you think i could make it as a motivational speaker?)'

Around my house, my wife likes to claim shes a motivational speaker - I just see it as being a plain ol nag!

[jamesgilliam]

Ken, I hope your wife does not read the forum.

[zeykr]

We go through the nag vs motivational speaker thing often with good humor, so not a problem if she sees it here.

[joe]

I don't think I can do much about anything except head down to the shop, put on the harnes and blinders, lean forward, and start pulling. Everyting else will have to fix itself.

I'm kind of scared.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[thecustomsignshop]

Wow, what a post. Never read such a long post that amounted to so little usefull information before...

Anyway, politics aside, we are good. We did see a slight drop off, but not a lot. Still workin on Sundays, so things can't be all bad..

[curtiss]

Henrik, thanks for providing some international flavor to the forum.

Those were very interesting articles, Wall Street and DC have long ago forgot about main street.

Is O'lofgors Irish ??

[henrik_o]

Lol, no, it's Swedish. The Olars and the Gorans intermarried and in time it became Olofgors.

Regarding the quote from Rand's Atlas Shrugged above, I think one should keep in mind that Rand is possibly the only American to have had the distinction of having been scathingly denounced by both William F. Buckley and Noam Chomsky.


In my opinion, she was basically the female version of Ron Hubbard. Both were science fiction writers (Rand was a lot better though); both created extremely odd cults of personality, Hubbard scientology and Rand objectivism.

[brock_poling]

She is also one of the only American's writing on the evils of socialism who has actually lived under it.

You really can't dismiss her because Chomsky and Buckley had nothing kind to say. The truth is she is one of the most influential writers of the 20th century.

[wberminio]

So I guess the conculsion to all this is--

"Keep on Truckin'"

Erminio

[henrik_o]

Sure, there's not many Americans that lived under soviet rule -- Rand was one of them. That said, there really is no comparison to a person like, say, Solzhenitsyn. If you're after poignant analysis and great writing on that count, he is a far better choice, and then there is of course the whole armada of anti-communist writers who never lived in the US; Pasternak, Koestler, Orwell, Popper (Hayek's great pal), etc.

No, one shouldn't dismiss her just because Chomsky and Buckley viewed her unkindly. More to the point, in that regard, is that the academic 'austrians' never much returned her love for them; this was supposed to be her posse. But Hayek, Nozick, Rothbard et al didn't have a lot of kind things to say. von Mises feigned some kind of like, but Friedman bluntly stated that though she may have advanced libertarianism, she was 'intolerant' and 'dogmatic'. Again, this was supposed to be her crew, and they couldn't stand her or her objectivism.

--^*^--

I have little beef with libertarianism as such. I admire the liberal classics, Smith and Mill etc, and I have kind of a soft spot for Hayek. But then again, libertarian socialists like Chomsky build to a great degree on people like Smith and there's significant overlap between some of the people in for example the Cato institute and persons like Chomsky (Cato was for a long time one of the few publishers who gave him a platform), so that doesn't say that much.

The problem for me is that Rand just wasn't a very good libertarian, not in her thought nor (most certainly not) in her practics; the cultish aspect of objectivism was bizarre.

Perhaps she is a good stepping stone to get to the real deal, I could see that. But she's really not much more.

Oy, this got political, but then again the times are infused with it. I wish I could do what Mr Crumley does, I guess I'm just too angry to let it go.

[ljdm]

Every couple of sentences, you have to insert the word "Shopbot" or "Bot", or even "sawdust", just to make it seem like it's Shopbot related. Even a random mention of one of those words will suffice.

[hespj]

"The third is an absolutely fascinating insiders tale of how the Credit Default Swap weapon of mass financial destruction came about, but I forget where I read that and who wrote it." ... Henrik

Not this by any chance:

www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/11/11/The-End-of-Wall-Streets-Boom (http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/11/11/The-End-of-Wall-Streets-Boom)

Worth a read if you haven't seen it. Reads like a film script ...

[wberminio]

Shopbot makes these times more tolerable.

How's that,Lou?

Erminio

[robtown]

Hmmmm...
I can find work and stay busy 60-80 hours a week...

Now if I want to actually get PAID for that work within 180 days, that's a different issue entirely... My vendors and creditors won't stand for payment 90 to 180 days late, why should I have to?

Because I'm the "backbone of America", a small business, that's why... I don't get it.

Basically what it's coming to (for me) is if I can't pay my bills because somebody else won't pay thiers, why bother anymore?

Basically every monday morning for me is spent on the phone "reminding" much larger entities than myself that the check that was promised last december still hasn't arrived...

[GlenP]

Yeh that is one thing I hate about working for myself. I am lucky to have enough good paying customers to keep going but hate chasing the slow ones. I put them on my PITA (pain in the a??) list and the next time we quote or do work for them get an extra hidden charge. I figure they won't pay interest on a late payment so I make sure my interest for the late payment if already in there...that is assuming they pay at all, had some of those to. Good luck with the chase.

[terryd]

Always thought the local newspapers should have a dead beat list very much like the "crime reports". Nothing sparks indignation like public humiliation, not to mention the acceleration of past due accounts. Hey Glen how mant BTO (big time operators) sit in the "Dusty Rose" at lunch bragging about their last 100G deal when they still owe you $200 from 3 months ago......

[gabepari]

Jack wrote: "Just remember opinions are like Aholes, everyone has one, and it seems like plenty Aholes have opinions! lol..."

Jack, you spelled "Aholes" wrong. Since were talking with folks from Canadia, it should be "Eh-holes", eh?

Back to work, too much to do not enough time, Freakin' Economy

[henrik_o]

John H, yeah, that's the one.

[Brady Watson]

Everything is amazing & nobody is happy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoGYx35ypus

I couldn't have said it better myself...

-B

[magic]

I make a lot of hobbyist devices, There was a slight drop in sales but It's back to the same volume I've been doing for years..

People need their hobbies.

Two other friends who are doing big business are a pool repair guy and a window tinting guy. Both are raking it in.

[cabindoors]

The sign portion of my business has picked up since BHO was elected. I make magnetic signs with my Shopbot. "Is it 2012 yet?" is my best seller.

[shuffler]

OK My first post on these boards. I found yall by accident while looking for directions to put a spider together that I had cut on my laser.

Justin I just had a good laugh on your number 1 sign sales. Funny how someone who says change regarding politicians has been a politition all his (working?) life.

Here in Texas we are usually immune to slow downs in the economy unless they last more than 3 years in the rest of the country. This time it has affected Texas sooner. My shop is still busy but my employees are not working 80 to 100 hours like they used to.

Guess now I need to look into this shopbot and see what it is.

Regards

[dakers]

To Joe Crumley, thanks for the photo of the wagon train crossing the bad lands i got the heated leather seats and auto climate control on my minivan so i can go across the good lands. I have 200 horsepower too. I think your posting helped me understand where i am in the big picture.

[mjindustry]

Everything is amazing, and I agree, everyone is whining. Brady, that guy is dead on!

My look at it is that if you are eating and have roof over your head, you are probably doing well enough.

[GlenP]

Well right now I am fortunate to be quite busy and booking jobs into June. I feel for the folks that are going threw the hard times but do believe we need to turn the news and gloombox off and just turn on your favourite music or whatever makes you happy instead. I personally have health issues to deal with every day and ALWAYS tell people "oh well could be worse". I do this to stay positive and not let it eat me up. Keep your chins up and if one door closes another WILL open up. Most of us here have been or are selfemployed and WE CAN make it if you believe. OPen your mind to new ideas and products and go for it. Wish everyone well.

[bcammack]

All I can say is that if you are not that affected by the economic downturn, please put that money back into your local economy (not Wal-Mart or other corporate-owned big box stores). You are the people who are going to play a vital roll in bootstrapping our economy and getting people back to work.

[khaos]

8986
I believe that every nation on the planet should believe they are the greatest nation. I should say USA is the best! Then perhaps Henrik should say Sweden is best! Then we laugh and have an adult beverage whilst the good natured ribbing continues.


8987

I have traveled to many countries around the world and I have many, many real friends who are not from my country. As a veteran I have seen the best and the worst (or what I pray to god is the worst) and I get a real twist in my panties when my leader, my current president feels as follows:

profit - evil
SUV - extra evil
pride - evil
Shopbot - good
Bible - evil
patriotic - evil
independent thinker - evil
bot - good
boldness - evil
remembers history - evil
like tax cuts - evil
sawdust - good
US Military - evil
US Constitution - evil
Capitalism - evil
botdust - good
free enterprise - evil
USA - evil
Terrorism - doesn't exist
Money - grows on trees
free market - evil

I don't understand why he wants to destroy us. Maybe if he had a Shopbot he would be a better citizen.

8988
8989
8990

[cnc_works]

Joe, while I enjoy insight into the social, political and economic lives of my peers on this forum, the injection of such blind partisan politics makes me more inclined to just ban threads such as this. As it is, I'll just use my right to pay no attention to input I don't appreciate and enjoy the others.

Donn

[ljdm]

Yeah, but at least he mentioned "Shopbot", "Bot", "Sawdust", etc, a few random times in his post. The rest of the post - it's like sawdust, we all make it, but don't necessarily care about someone elses.

[dray]

profit - Security
SUV - lowered security due to high fuel prices
pride - good. Humility and pride can work hand in hand.
Shopbot - good
Bible - good teachings on living life in a good manner
patriotic - good
independent thinker - good
bot - good
boldness - good, so long as you are correct.
remembers history - good as all things revolve.
like tax cuts - evil
sawdust - good
US Military - pride of our nation.
US Constitution - Pride of our nation and what we are founded on
Capitalism - good.
botdust - good
free enterprise - good.
USA - The best country in the world.
Terrorism - exists
Money - good and made from the creations of your mind
free market - good

[khaos]

I would hope we could all do what Donn has done and use a buffet approach. Take what you like and leave the rest.

I know I may be different but don't expect everyone to agree with me. :o That is whats great about thinking people. They will NOT always come to the same conclusion given the same data.

Gecko Drives - Good

-Sawdust brought us together, may it keep us there.

[myxpykalix]

Due to the economy and the way it affects many of you I see no problem with people venting frustrations and feelings here. The problem is that politics seem to be so intertwined with business nowadays that it is hard to talk about one without the other.
Now if we can find a way to insert religion into the dialog we really would have a behive going here!
For those who seek to ban a thread because they percieve it to be inappropriate for this forum, before you push a button to delete something ask yourself this.
If some friends were standing in a circle talking business and politics at a camp shopbot would you walk up to them and tell them to their faces to SHUT UP!?
These threads have a way of petering out but I think it is wrong to tell me "technically" I can't vent my frustrations because it is theraputic to a degree for some.

[brock_poling]

I think the problem is politics has become intertwined with economics.

Not that this thread has become political.

[gene]

Jack,
How do i collect for all this therapy, My shrink really charges me alot..LOL

[henrik_o]

quote:I believe that every nation on the planet should believe they are the greatest nation. I should say USA is the best! Then perhaps Henrik should say Sweden is best! Then we laugh and have an adult beverage whilst the good natured ribbing continues.
Sounds like a good time. You can call us pinko commies and I'll accuse you of being uncultured fundamentalists
and then we can get tipsy and sing songs and talk about more interesting things.

Anyway, I like Joe C's and Bradley's approach, I do, but I guess I'm just a bit too angry about all of this. This was ultimately so avoidable. If it's an earthquake or a flood it doesn't help if you beat your fist at the earth or spit at the seas, you accept it and you move on keeping as positive a spirit as you can.

But this is not like that. This was a group of MBA's in fancy suits that run amok like drunk teenagers on spring break, breaking every convention and doing it with a credit card which we now find out was made out in our name. As a result, people my age --people I know-- who have worked hard since they left school and built businesses with their own bare hands are forced to close down, fire their employees, and take their wife by the hand and their kids in their arms and walk out of their houses. Not because they were irresponsible spenders or made bad bets, but because their bank made out bad loans to irresponsible people and as a result these people can't get a line of credit to offset a bad month or a lost contract.

It's just such a waste and it was so avoidable.

Then again, hindsight is 20/20, harping on it now won't help us in the now. Let's just say: when the next bubble rolls around and the regulation on finance begins to be loosened up again, let's remember that it is always the small people that get shafted in the bust.

It doesn't matter where you stand on the issue of laissez-faire capitalism versus welfare statism, where you stand on the current president of the United States, etc: the people that get caught when the proverbial stool hits the fan is always the exact kind of people like most of us posting here.

We are the ones who don't wear a suit -- because it gets in the way of doing serious things; we are the ones who get up in the morning and think about how to build things -- not how to balance a spreadsheet; we are the ones who forsake secure employment or corporate politics -- because we want to go our way and be judged by what our hands and minds have produced at the end of the day or the week or the month.

If there is salt on this earth, are we not among the salt of the earth? Is it right that we should always be the usual victims of high street largesse? Sure, if we made out like bandits during the bubble, a comeuppance might be in order. But whom of us did that? I didn’t. Did you?

Now the scythe of crisis sweeps, cutting down —as always—first and foremost those of us whose feet are most firmly placed in the ground, those who were too busy arranging matter into value through labour to look over our shoulder to see the financial wrecking ball headed down our path.

This is not how it is supposed to be, is it? This is not the capitalism of Adam Smith or Ricardo, Mill or Say or even Weber.

It is what it is. We’re screwed, again. Better make the best of it: every crisis accentuates competition and if you’re strong and smart you can profit even from slaughter. My boat is in good order. I didn’t use credit to grow, and I’ve got the ten year old SAAB to prove it. The economy might sink, but as long as it doesn’t sink as fast as my competition, I guess I‘m technically benefiting. Lean and mean, or whatever it’s called.

I’m not a biblical man. But there is great wisdom in that question: am I my brother’s keeper? I think we should be. I would like to think so. I don’t really see that much, as it all comes apart. Again.

How to construct a capitalism that is actually mindful of the most basic categories of private ownership and its value for social development, social ethos and ethic, as well as moving the technological and human frontier further is an issue more or less totally forgotten by academic economists. It’s also something that ‘action’ financial capitalists have apparently utterly ejected and decided to declare dead and awful and ancient. It can certainly not be an issue for shopbotters to construct, smart as we are.

It is what it is. Like Joe C, I want to just forget it and get to work. I chose not to wear a suit for a reason. But I will perhaps look over my shoulder now and then, to better gage the size of the bubble ball or the wrecking ball coming my way. It is not mine of the making, but as long as my name may be written on it, it does not much matter, does it?


--^*^--

This got long and it got preachy. Sorry about that.

Eliot once wrote, which is in my opinion as a non-native English speaker the most charged and condensed sentence ever written in the English language: "I will show you fear in a handful of dust."

I'd be content if we could demand just dignity for a handful of sawdust.

Is it just politics? How many here lost their health insurance in the last five months, either because they were fired, their employer dropped it or it became too costly for the self-employed?

How many deserved to lose it?

[dray]

I really feel like stirring the pot today =P

[khaos]

If the Pot is stirred any more it'll turn to meringue!!

[myxpykalix]

ATTN GENE...It clearly was you that got this going here...If I were you I might be afraid that "the villagers might look to storm the castle to kill the monster" in retribution so you might want to reinforce your shop doors! lol

(For you youngsters that was a frankenstein reference and Gene is the DR. who created this monster!)

[khaos]

8991 If your blue and you don't know were to go to ... hidhdbrisss [monster translation: Sittin on the Ritz]

[gene]

OK OK FREE THERAPY FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!

Dont you feel better after you vent. This was a test only a test , now get back to work . There's sawdust to make and boards that need shortening..

[gene]

Jack
By the way did i tell you that i moved to a nondisclosed location and entered the whitness protection program so the next time you see me it really isnt me.....LOL

[gerryv]

Many of us could not say it that well in our "first" language Henrik. I think that no one will be able to find bias or prejudice in this but, more importantly, it's accurate from where I sit and watch. Thank you.

[jamesgilliam]

Henrik, There is alot of truth in what you said.

[rhfurniture]

Henrick - I agree, only thing was they weren't unruly teenage drunks, just employees creatively filling their job description (in the widest sense).
Why not try:
http://www.solidworks.com/sw/engineering_stimulus_package.html
Opportunity to skills up. Only USA/Canada - discrimination/protectionism I call that (I'm UK)
Autodesk ditto:
http://students4.autodesk.com/?nd=assistance_home&lbon=1

[dray]

Hey, get rhythm when you get the blues

Hey, get rhythm when you get the blues

Yes a jumpy rhythm makes you feel so fine

It'll shake all the trouble from your worried mind

Get rhythm when you get the blues





Little shoeshine boy never gets low down

But he's got the dirtiest job in town

Bendin' low at the peoples' feet

On the windy corner of the dirty street

Well, I asked him while he shined my shoes

How'd he keep from gettin' the blues

He grinned as he raised his little head

Popped a shoeshine rag and then he said



Get rhythm when you get the blues

Hey, get rhythm when you get the blues

It only costs a dime, just a nickel a shoe

Does a million dollars worth of good for you

Get rhythm when you get the blues



Well, I sat down to listen to the shoeshine boy

And I thought I was gonna jump for joy

Slapped on the shoe polish left and right

He took a shoeshine rag and he held it tight

He stopped once to wipe the sweat away

I said you're a mighty little boy to be-a workin' that way

He said I like it with a big wide grin

Kept on a poppin' and he said again



Get rhythm when you get the blues

Hey, get rhythm when you get the blues

Get a rock 'n' roll feelin' in your bones

Get taps on your toes and get gone

Get rhythm when you get the blues

[ljdm]

Ok........ it's definite now. I can see the economy/recession is starting to affect us mentally.

[bcondon]

The point that I find very sad in all of this, is that 15 years ago, everything was running fine. The banks lent money to people who could afford to pay them back. Then our government and legal system started in the "everyone deserves a loan" and then the bankers drank the koolaid, got stupid and lent money to every Tom, Dick, and Harriet.

A very long term friend of mine looked at a camp and found a beauty for a meer $400K, and the bankers were lined up to give him a loan until he looked at his cash flow and figured that paying this was impossible so HE and his lovely wife cancelled buying the camp.

SO the Government told the banks to lend and now we (the government) is paying for our leader's stupidity.


The banks had it right from the beginning....

[harryball]

Government... I learned today that the estimated $3100 in repairs to the fuel system on my truck is very very very likely due to the change to the new Ultra Low Sulfur water they are pushing off as diesel fuel and mandated by the government. It seems it is more corrosive than old diesel in some way and some fuel tanks do not have linings that resist the new more corrosive fuel.

When I got the estimate I was thinking "NO WAY", this must be a sales job from the stealership. A call to the tank mfg confirmed the worst.

If you drive a diesel read this...
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CYH/is_3_6/ai_82780631/




You say "But the government promised me it wouldn't harm my truck" and you can take that to the bank... if you can find one.

All in the name of reducing emissions... did I mention I get 2 mpg lower fuel mileage burning this stuff? So much for "reduced" emissions.

I sure hope the government doesn't "help" us and mandate new electricity that causes our bots to explode. "Sorry folks, but a 138V system at 78.4 Hz is much more efficient..."

/RB

[gene]

I wonder if the Government ever did anything that wasn,t a total screw up? We definately do not have a shortage of idiots in washington. They deregulated the natural gas industry and now my line user fees are higher than my gas usage cost.

[thewoodcrafter]

Gene,

They did that with the phone system too.

[wberminio]

Jeremiah 10:23* I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step

[gabepari]

Bob said: "got stupid and lent money to every Tom, Dick, and Harriet"

Correction: "got stupid and lent money to every Jose, Miguel, and Maria Conchita Consuela Gonzales"


Like Danny Ray, I'm stirrin' the pot. In fact I'm actually doing a little dance right now, you just can't see me.

Once again, back to work, deadlines deadlines deadlines.

Gabe

[waynelocke]

I agree with Gabe. Let's blame the folks who bought homes they probably shouldn't have. Oh and also the illegals or those with illegal sounding names. It couldn't possibly be the fault of 8 years of deregulating everything and letting those with the power and money do whatever they want and take whatever they want. No it was the illegals with guns forcing AIG, Merril et al to do things they really didn't want to do.

[harryball]

"Greedy" thinking will get you in trouble everytime. If not today, then tomorrow. What bothers me is how this situation got out of hand and so many "innocent" people are going along for the ride.

A few years back I had a financial advisor tell me that anyone who pays off their house is finance ignorant. You should keep your house financed to 80% (90% if you can) and invest since your house will increase in value and the stock market will gain you 8% to 12% opposed to the 5% or less you'll pay on the mortgage. He had a chart and everything. I don't know what his opinion today would be but I recently learned through the group I was involved in that he's not doing so well right now. I can't imagine why.

/RB

[bcammack]

Actually, studies of the data have shown that the lower/middle-income families that were opportuned to buy a modest home through a proper, valid mortgage process actually have a lower rate of default than average. Conjecture is that owning their own home is very important to them and they strive to keep it.

We have been defrauded by the major players in the banking industry. When you underwrite a debt that you are just going to turn around and resell to somebody else, what do you care if the person you're loaning the money to is legit? You will have disposed of the risk before the second monthly payment arrives. Right now the foxes are guarding the henhouse, too because they don't want to expose their "friends" from Wall Street as the crooks they are, hence the "Double your I.Q. or no money back!" pitch we've been asked to swallow.

[khaos]

Brett your right! government should stayed the heck out of the private sector they should
Leave Things A-Loan!

Warning: I'm naming names. Political tripe to follow.

As always, it's the cover-up that sinks people. Laissez-faire people are working overtime to cover up their role in the mortgage meltdown. Not only did they block attempts to reform Government Sponsored Enterprises (GSEs) such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac before they could drag down our economy, but Laissez-faires also abused the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA), turning it into a vehicle for directing loans to unqualified home buyers. The left knows that whoever shapes public understanding of what caused today's economic crisis can shape America's politics -- and its future -- for a great many years to come. Thus, they're pushing the notion that too little government regulation was at fault.

If the country buys this idea, Laissez-faire people can enact a carbon-copy of FDR's response to the Great Depression, building a larger, more activist and ever-more-controlling federal government. They can exploit the mess by establishing a conventional wisdom that more government is the solution, rather than understanding how big government is a root cause of the current financial meltdown. Claiming it all sprung from a lack of regulation is a half-truth, and a Yiddish proverb says a half truth is a whole lie. Over-regulation opened the money spigot by requiring lenders to make poorly underwritten loans. Under-regulation then allowed politicians to exploit that. Although greed and dishonesty among both borrowers and lenders had major roles, the CRA and the GSEs were at the heart of what happened, setting up the now-toppled dominoes of Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, and others. Over-regulation through CRA, aided by HUD, became a huge problem and, alas, wasn't even addressed in the multi-billion dollar bailout. The Clinton Treasury Department's tough new regulations in 1995 compelled the banks to engage in far-riskier lending practices or receive a failing CRA grade.

To avoid an "F" from the CRA, which could jeopardize their viability, the banks were pressured to direct hundreds of billions of dollars in high-risk mortgages to inner-city and low-income neighborhoods. Moreover, under CRA pressure, banks would "hire" radical, non-profit groups like ACORN to find them customers. Once trillions of dollars began to flow, politicians and lobbyists tapped into this stream, and so did left-wing activist groups. According to George Mason University's Russell Roberts, the CRA was buttressed by other new regulations during the Clinton Administration. As Roberts writes, "For 1996, the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) gave Fannie and Freddie an explicit target -- 42 percent of their mortgage financing had to go to borrowers with income below the median in their area. The target increased to 50 percent in 2000 and 52 percent in 2005. For 1996, HUD required that 12 percent of all mortgage purchases by Fannie and Freddie be "special affordable" loans, typically to borrowers with income less than 60 percent of their area's median income. That number was increased to 20 percent in 2000 and 22 percent in 2005. The 2008 goal was to be 28 percent." The banks were kept from rebelling by using Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's deep pockets to buy these poor-quality loans and take them off the banks' books. Under-regulation of the GSEs -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- allowed the money stream to widen and keep flowing. There has always been an implicit understanding that taxpayers would cover GSE losses and this enabled them to attract money and pour it into the CRA-induced sub-prime market.

The Bush Administration had warned about this for years. Fannie and Freddie, however, could skim enough to pay for political protection, plus pay sky-high executive salaries and bonuses to well-connected political figures. Over the past decade, Fannie and Freddie combined to spend a reported $200 million on lobbying and campaign contributions. Now bailing them out may cost taxpayers $200 billion directly, and far more indirectly. The circle of political back-scratching centered around the theme of affordable housing, which the GSEs marketed heavily. Politicians wanted housing for low-income and poor credit risks, so they used Fannie and Freddie to further that objective, and the GSEs responded with campaign help for those politicians. In return, politicians resisted reforms. This was demonstrated at a 2004 House hearing, where Rep. Maxine Waters (D.-Calif.) denounced attempts to stiffen oversight and regulation of this duo "so as not to impede their affordable housing mission, a mission that has seen innovation flourish, from desktop underwriting to 100 percent loans." "Desktop underwriting" meant undocumented loans. No proof of income or credit history required. And zero down payment. Members of both parties were involved in protecting the system. But Laissez-faire Democrats were the dominant force. Recently, House Financial Services Chairman Barney Frank (D-Mass.) told The Boston Globe, "[Republicans'] failure to regulate sensibly ... endangered the economy and ... burdened it with bad stuff.... Their own philosophy blew up in their face. They were so extreme in their insistence that there be no government intervention that they have wound up provoking far more government intervention than the Democrats ever would have." But Frank is covering up his own role because he sang a far different tune in 2003, when the Bush Administration and many Republicans (including Sen. John McCain) tried to require Fannie and Freddie to comply with Securities and Exchange Commission regulations and other additional oversight requirements. Treasury Secretary John Snow, in fact, had specifically warned Congress that Fannie and Freddie needed a new supervisory structure so that both institutions would "maintain capital and reserves sufficient to support the risks that arise or exist in its business." Rep. Frank was unconcerned. He told a hearing, "Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are not in a crisis." Rather, he said, they were "fundamentally sound," and criticisms of them were unjustified exaggerations and "disaster scenarios." Then he confirmed why: "The more pressure there is [to regulate] then the less I think we see in terms of affordable housing" He wanted to continue both the giveaway train supplying mortgages to those who couldn't afford them and the gravy train for politicians. This appealed to Laissez-faires and in particular to the Congressional Black Caucus, which received six-figure support from both Fannie and Freddie in 2007. The GSEs' major campaign largesse went to well-placed friends in key positions. The top six from 1998 thru 2008, according to the Center for Responsive Politics: Sen. Chris Dodd (D.-Conn.) $165,400 Sen. Barack Obama (D.-Ill.) $126,349 Sen. John Kerry (D.-Mass.) $111,000 Sen. Robert Bennett (R.-Utah) $107,999 Rep. Spencer Bachus (R.-Ala.) $103,300 Rep. Roy Blunt (R.-Mo.) $ 96,950 And almost everyone in Congress got something.

The GSEs lobbied hard, too. Their combined lobbying budget averaged $17 million a year. As described by Rep. Chris Shays (R.-Conn.), "They hire every lobbyist they can possibly hire. They hire some people to lobby and they hire other people not to lobby so the opposition cannot hire them." But friends at the top were not enough. They needed them in every community, too. The Community Reinvestment Act guaranteed a steady stream of low-quality, but highly political, loans. Congress passed the CRA in 1977 to combat "redlining," a lending practice that prevented loans to minority communities. Clinton Administration regulations in the '90s added teeth to CRA, requiring banks to show compliance with meeting low-income loan targets or face civil actions that could assess a $500,000 penalty for each violation. Banks were "encouraged" to comply by hiring community groups (including ACORN) who contracted with financiers to steer low-income applicants to their institutions. As the Manhattan Institute's Howard Husock wrote in 2000: "The Senate Banking Committee has estimated that, as a result of CRA, $9.5 billion so far has gone to pay for services and salaries of the nonprofit groups involved." The left created the system that paid its community organizers very handsomely, thanks to the regulations on the financial community.

As The Heritage Foundation's J.D. Foster recently noted, "While a worthy cause, the net effect [of CRA] is often to encourage loans at lower credit standards and to encourage people to buy houses they really cannot afford." The net effect has also brought the economy to the brink of disaster. But unless the American public is told, re-told, and educated about how we got here, there won't be reform of the bailed-out-but-still-alive GSEs nor of the CRA. Then we would witness more big government, giving us far more help than we can afford.

for more info see: http://www.heritage.org

--- Jeeze now I'm all long and preachy ---

[khaos]

Oh Yeah,
-Sawdust brought us together, may it keep us there.

[cutitout]

Yes Joe
Glad to see you have the truth of how this mess started, and Why it will stay mess as long as Uncle Sam keeps printing money.

Government spending is the problem not the solution!

[gabepari]

<stir the pot>

Wayne, did I blame those who you racially profiled? If the banks were forced by the feds to loan to those who obviously couldn't pay back, then you can't blame the stupid for thinking they could buy a house.

Why can we never blame the stupid? It's always their fault, but they never get in trouble...

It's up to all of use to protect the stupid from themselves, it's your duty.

</stir the pot>

BTW - stupid resides everywhere, including government.

Once again, I've spent way too much time here, off to work

[benchmench]

How bad is the economy? Here's my marketing plan... Cats are so dramatic!
8992

[butch]

Dan
Now, there is true representation of the economy!
That's a good one...

Butch

[gene]

Any time you have people spending 100 million to get elected to a 400thousand dollar a year job thats what is wrong..

I am announcing my running for president in 2012.
Please send me all your money and i will fix this.
I will put a bot in every shop and create mountains of saw dust.

[bcammack]

Odd, but it seems like everything that actually happened during and because of the last Administration didn't actually happen or happened in spite of them. Odd...

[khaos]

Oh NO. Brett don't think I give Bush a free pass either. He signed that god forsaken bill before Obama got in. He was the appeaser in the name of getting along. No child left behind, the education bill written by the Senator from Chappaquiddick, the stimulus ... Please don't think anyone gets a pass. The guy in the oval office has a one third vote. The other two thirds are as much if not more to blame and blame goes on BOTH sides of the isle.

Granted, I have noticed that I find more displeasure in the left side so it may seem that I am a straight party line guy. But not so. I am a conservative and I am not ashamed to tell any politician where they crossed the line.
(Barney Frank isn't returning my calls though)

SawDust, SawDust, SawDust

-Sawdust brought us together, may it keep us there.

[ljdm]

It doesn't matter who did what, or who didn't do what. Bottom line is we are in a mess. Since I doubt I'm going to get any bailout money, or any other direct stimulus to help me, I guess it's up to me to help myself. We have to scout out new business, follow up leads, send samples, use creative advertising, tighten up our belts a little, and use the brains we have, and the machines we own to get us through this. At one point take the energy used in bashing/blaming others and use that energy to help ourselves - cause no one else is going to do it for us. Venting is useful, as long as you don't obssess on it. If no other reason - we have a machine that can do what the big-buck machines can do, but the lower overhead is one advantage we have right now in the marketplace. Seems like in slow times where the machine isnt running full time, at least you are not paying for a more expensive machine. That's the mind-set I feel I have to have right now, if there is any chance of getting through this. The reason I started my own business was because I want to control my own destiny, not depend on someone else to screw it up. So - it's up to me. That's why it really doesn't matter which idiot is responsible. Enough venting....... gotta go out to the shop and at least try and come up with something. The 'Bot is really good therapy.

[dray]

LOL.. this is getting entertaining..

My sister moved to News Zealand because she hated Bush.. She pissed and moaned from NZ for years from NZ about bush as a US citizen then accepted her "bailout" $$

Me.. I just get up and go to work every day. Who ever is in office does not change the fact that I need to get uup and goto work.

Pissing and moaning about anything changes nothing..

Solutions to your problems change things.

I have employees like that that piss and moan about everything but change nothing. If theres something going on you dont like, change it.

lol.. btw I like employees like that, they are loyal and show up every week for a check and do their work and never try anything new. They are always there, year after year.

I guess the gist is.. if you dont like something change it..

I dont see not having $$ as a government problem or an economy problem, i see it as a personal problem so I solve it.

So get off your butts quit worrying what govt is doing because you have NO control over that and go out to your bot and make something to sell!!

lol my 2 cents

[Brady Watson]

It's true...complaining won't change anything. Most people don't want to give up complaining, because they get something out of it. They either get to blame someone else, or they get to be 'right' about something...and that's why they will stay stuck until they have personal response-ability & the ability to afford themselves their OWN perspective. It's MY brain - I'm going to create pleasant and uplifting thoughts rather than default to the collective doom & gloom about there not being enough.

The world was lop-sided and screwed up before any of us were born, it is today & probably will be forever. So be it. When you grow up enough to realize that you are always going to be a slave to the man in one way or another, then you can get on with your life and not get hooked by all of this collective consciousness about there never being enough. By the way, the word 'government' comes from the Latin 'gubernatio' and 'mente', which literally means, mind control.

Just about everyone here has at least one robotic tool, capable of generating a lot of money in a short amount of time. I don't feel sorry for anyone who owns a plane, yacht or CNC. We ALL have more than enough right now...and while we may have to put off buying some new toy that ultimately isn't going to make us happy anyway, we're all doin' alright. Everyone here has an internet connection. We're doin' alright & have everything we NEED right now. There are however, people in the world that have to decide whether to pay the past due light bill or buy groceries for the family - and for that, I feel true compassion.

Listening to a bunch of CNC owners complain about all of the doom, gloom and injustice in the world, while playing the blame game, is gross. Count your blessings...You have a warm clean bed, food, shelter and a whole bunch of opportunity that others don't have. Tell yourself that you have enough...and you always will.

-B

[myxpykalix]

waaaaahhh.......

[bcondon]

For RB several days ago, when I went to pay off my mortgage a few years back, my banker was rather upset and said you should never pay it off. His reasons were actually logical (I failed to listen though) because he said if your house is free and clear and you want to borrow some money (expand the business etc)and you only need a small amount of money *$5K - $10K), it was cheaper to have a very small mortgage ($5K left) and take out a home equity loan (the bank pays the application fee, the loan is tax deductable, low interest rates) INSTEAD of a personal loan
(which can have 10%+ interest rate, not tax deducatble) or a new first mortgage ($1500 application fee, tax deductable, good interest rate).

Of course then there was my local BIIIIIIG bank who wanted to give me an equity loan on my paid off house to buy the camp so I could get the money in 3 days.... dahhhh.

[navigator7]

What?
All the bitching quit back in April?
What is this?

[gene]

Hey Chuck,
I think Brady Jack and Bob pissed everyone off. LOL

[gabepari]

I've been too busy to bitch. No slow down in my shop


Gabe

[wberminio]

Gabe

Keeping busy is easy!

Hope you're making $$$$!

[myxpykalix]

Gene
couldn't have been me, i don't give sermons here.
lol

[dray]

We are keeping busy. But my shop complex has "For lease" signs everywhere. It feels like an empty desert around here Im just waiting for the tumble weeds to start rolling down the street.

[coach]

same here Danny, we have 11 spaces in my complex. I have 2 bays and 3 others are part time business'. I am the only full timer,,,,i hafta open and close the gate everyday now.....could be worse.

[magic]

120 units here, 50 empty.

I'm stickin it out because I have no other choice. Putting everything in storage is a lot of work and setting it all up again would be even more.

[gene]

David
Who do you get your pre finished plywood and mdf from? Have you ever done buisness with Courterco out of Savannah?

[dray]

It must be getting bad, this guy was outside my shop this morning.


8993

[wberminio]

Danny

If he was outside your shop,You must be doing pretty good!

[coach]

Gene, I use A&M Supply out of Orlando.
I never heard of Courterco but I will certainly give them a call.
I do a lot of shopping around and force the salemen to fight for my business.....be it ever so humble.

[myxpykalix]

"uh-uh..I wouldn't do that if i were you. Did I fire 6 shots or only 5? Well to tell you the truth in all this confusion I kinda lost track myself. But you have to ask yourself one question...Do I feel lucky?...Well do ya PUNK?"

oops sorry wrong movie!
This is what i get for owning a chain of video stores starting in the 70's.
Anybody want to hear me recite all the parts of the Erroll Flynn version of Robin Hood!

Whats so bad is i can recite movie lines from 30 years ago but i can't remember what i did yesterday.

[navigator7]

"I wonder if they will have THAT on the ride" Ian ~ Jurassic Park


8994

Remember in the old days we had to keep the wolf from the door. Enter NextGen.
Things are a little tougher these days as T-rex simply has no regard for modern home construction.

[cabnet636]

it is picking up sporadically but it is picking up!! we have begun to clean the shop and do some organization. lot of shops went out of business and homeowners are more aware of flyby nights seems easier to sell if you have a good product, had a lady got stung by lowes yesterday, when she saw the difference in quality she brought her neihbor with her, look for the oppurtunity

jim

[navigator7]

Man...If I was a lady I sure wouldn't want people tromping through my house that don't have a stake in my purchase.
I'll take an Owner/Operator cabinet maker any day over tattoo'd coke snorting yoots Home Depot sends out to install.