Complicated grille work - Some guidance please

[cedars]

Attached is a bad scan of a metal grille work which the Architect wants to duplicate in wood or MDF or something like that. It is going to be mounted 8' off the floor and painted black. The picture doesn't show the 3d profile very well but there is some. I will be getting much better pictures/drawings etc. but they want me to give them a ball park price on such a project. It involves 20 units 30" x 39" and 2 units 39" x 72".

The questions are: What is going to be the best material to cut such intricate design in? Dare I draw this thing on my own? (After all I just got back from the Pittsburgh training with Vectric, so now I can program anything, right?) What kind of design time should I allow for? And finally what in the world kind of time will something like this take to cut out? I guess one other question is what is going to be the best way to hold down such an intricate piece?

Thanks for any input.
Steve

8995

[shoeshine]

Wow that's gonna be a doozy. I dont know that I would try in wood or mdf. It would be fragile at best. what is the scale of the elements in relation to the panels? If I read that photo right, it seems you would need to go with someting with a fair tensile strength for such thin elements. Something like polycarbonate or acrylic. How will it be mounted? does it need to be ridgid? If it needs to be self supporting, I might even go with some thin aluminum, though that will dramaticly increase your cutting time.

Let us know when you have more details,.

[erik_f]

You could easily have Aspire do the drawing for you if you take some good pictures. All you need is one of the complete circle like thingies, then you can use the array function to create pattern and large or as small as you want. You might want to consider some type of pvc sign foam.

[cabnet636]

i have done this, the biggest problem is if you bitmap to vector will be cleaning up the nodes, if you draw it it will be much quicker in the long run. did mine in 1/4" mdf cur thru and put a backer on it

jim



8996


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[signtist]

I'd guess about 5-6 hours to input the design.($300-$350)
Once you have 1 complete set of good components,the rest is easy.
If it is going to be mounted verticle with some kind of frame, I think just about any material would work. PVC, Medix, Exteria, Etc.
This can't be something the public can touch. Or else it would be metal.
Save all the parts seperate, BEFORE YOU WELD IT TOGETHER!
I would try to simply pocket some parts and maybe bevel some just to give some relief look to it.
3D cutting with ball end bits take way too much time.
If they are asking for a "Ball Park Price" you need to figure the machine time on each 4' x 8' sheet. At least 2 hrs ea. ????

good luck John www.signgraphics1.com (http://www.signgraphics1.com)

[curtiss]

I would suppose the pattern would have to repeat on a 6 x 6. Can the architect provide you a dxf file of the panels he wants ?

Autocad could draw that in less than an hour from what I see, really only two different closed vectors that are offset.

You can then import that into Vectric fairly easily.

[mitch_prest]

I think this may be what they are looking for.. an ironwork pattern of 4 repeating parts... this was done in solidworks... just under an hour...
8998

[joe]

Steve,

I don't believe this is as much of challenge your making it out to be. Here how I'd approach it.

Your scan is good enough for me. What I'm seeing is a basic shape repeated over and over again. I'd suggest you digitize the basic shape with your mouse.It shouldn't take but a few minutes. Then duplicate it over and over, ending up with a simple weld. Now your ready to either profile it with a small round over bit and cut it out, or use the 3D effects of Aspire.

Either way a vector image will be tacky sharp..

If you use the roundover, combined with a strait flute for the cutout technique, it will go fairly fast.

I'd probably use 1/2" PVC.

To make a super duper hold down, I'd build a drill pattern in your file. Then with a 1/8" bit drill, punch holes for screws to hold the panel in place prior to routing the pattern.

Also, by using PVC and cutting the whole thing out with an 1/8" strait bit, it will stay in place due to the waste material left behind.

If you run into problems, email your image and I'll see if I can help.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[john_l]

Mitch, That's cool. I bet that is the design too.

If that's it, I think I would still flat profile cut it out of pvc and then cut some 2 piece horseshoe shaped pieces to glue together around the connected areas.

If the sun is going to beat on it. The thin pvc might not be a good choice. In that case, maybe medex, or acrylic. But you could still put the little split connector pieces on seperately.

[joe]

John L.

Medix wouldn't make it. The surface is waterproof but the interior is just like MDF. With all the facits, leaving lots of exposed pulp and it would puff up like a pancake. Also gluing frail little pieces together would not be very professional. Remember he's dealing with an architect.

Do you have a website or where can we see some of your work?

Joe

[joe]

Mitch has done a great job. It would need to be done as a 3D.

Thanks Mitch.

[john_l]

Quoting the original post.. "It is going to be mounted 8' off the floor and painted black".. I assumed the floor in indoors but maybe I am wrong.

To clarify.. I am suggesting that the design be profile cut as one big screen piece, not individual swirls glued together. The only seperate elements would be the little "wraps" that Mitch showed at the intersections of the design.

8' off the floor isn't all that high so you aren't going to fool anyone that knows what wrought iron is supposed to look like but it sounds like the Architect is OK with that.

In my opinion, an all profile-cut strategy would avoid the time and expense of 3D and would likely be embraced, and should more than satisfy any Architect that "wants to duplicate in wood or MDF" (also from original post). This might be because of design considerations or maybe cost considerations (?).

I do think on this job, I could probably avoid 3D and produce it quicker and cheaper. Just my opinion.

[scottcox]

Steve,

As far as vectorizing goes, this is all you need to do (see image). The rest is just an array copy of this pattern.


I would use MDO, PVC or HTPE for the material, but that's just my 2 cents, based on what I've worked with before.

[scottcox]

I guess you can't change a photo using the forum post edit function. Here it is.


8999

[bleeth]

Steve: Why does he not want this done in wrought iron? Probable answer-he wants to get it cheaper!! The wrought iron is tack welded of standard parts they buy. Your all custom job may very likely end up more expensive.

[cabnet636]

i have purchased the parts for this stuff at

http://www.kingmetals.com/

or out source it to a plasma cnc shop

[myxpykalix]

how bought looking for that design in books like this and you have the design you can copy direct

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[cedars]

Wow!! This is all perfect information guys.

James Mc: What kind of cut time did you have on the pieces that are in you photo and was it simply a profile cut?

Mitch: That's perfect.

You know after seeing all of the posts, I think you all are right, it isn't as big a deal as I first thought it was. It really is a small segment to draw and then copy, copy, copy. This gave me enough info to go back to the client with some ballpark pricing. I put a $2000 add on for adding some 3d detail.

Thanks for all the help!
Steve

[cabnet636]

one is a pocket and one is a profile. profile is quicker, i use aspire so i choose the two bit method (i have a tool changer)
jim

[joe]

Aint this forum great!

[navigator7]

My 2¢:
I used to run a fab shop for subsea cable laying equipment.
Oddball stuff.
I developed a saying after years of 'experience' building what marine engineers dreamed up (Sarc): "It must be forklift-able, crane-able and oil changeable....Or it will go to h--l on the dock."

Sometimes engineers and architects get all wrapped up in the design and impose hardships on the people sent out to attach few bolts.

I think you need to be very clear how these will be mounted.
It may not be you or the architect doing the work.
Just taking it off your table could be a disaster?
I could imagine building "Custom Luggage" for this piece that serves double duty.
1. A protective case.
2. A protected storage area.
3. And a tool used to mount the piece without damage to the piece.

A plywood sandwich! Perhaps with custom removable pockets that are removed only when it's time to affix it in space. Maybe a plywood box with a foam inserts relived to match the pattern? Lifting eyes on the plywood box and strong backs or cleats running lengthwise to attach ropes and or hand holds so the plywood sandwich doesn't cause damage when it is liberated from the part.

I see a beautiful carving raining down pretzels without a good installation battle plan.
HTH

[garyb]

Guys your making a harder than what it is.
We cut these all the time, mostly spec'ed out of 1/2"mdf. We select the one repeat pattern to vectorize and work from the center out. If the grille is needed in a larger size we mirror both ways so the center always has the same pattern.

Cutting is a profile cut with one pass using a custom 22° bit, most of the time these receive a sculpt nouveau finish, which will hide just about any imperfection.


9002

[dray]

my 2c I would just recreate the one design and copy paste throughout. cut it Then setup a slow 1/32" final pass in MDF..