Relief Carving

[larryl@mypicayune.com]

I am interested in carving 1/4-1/2" deep reliefs taken from scanned drawings and photos. Does anyone have any experince using ArtCam or other programs to do this using the SB? I need a very refined image. These would be one-off pieces. Is this feasable given programing time and tooling changes that might be necessary using the SB?

[Jeff Brown]

Larry-
This is feasible with the bot. We do this type of work, using ModelMill for the software. As far as a refined image, that probably depends on your opinion of refined.
We were very happy with a carving in mahogany coming straight off the bot. For a series of carvings that we did in 50lb ureathane we found that we needed to clean up machine marks by hand.

[Larry Lee]

Thanks Jeff. I work with wood and solid surface materials. MY main concern is the amount of handwork necessary to produce quality 3d likenesses from 2d sources and the amount of programming time a given software would optimally require to pull it off. Also would like to work with more than 1 image in a sort of nested configuration, ie. 10 or 20 different subjects being routed at the same time on the same sheet of goods. I own a cabinet shop and this is something I want to do to add to and enhance my work there. What I need is something that will approach portrait quality in a 3d medium.

[jdb@jeffrey-brown.com]

I have not tried anything like the nesting that you are talking about, but one consideration is the time involved with relief carving.
I am not familiar with ArtCAM, but ModelMill acheives carvings with a raster tool path. Back and forth, back and forth. The tool paths overlap to the user defined amount. More overlap equals cleaner carving off the machine equals more time on the machine.
Also, all the carving I have done has required editing in a graphics program. I believe that ModelMill and ArtCAM handles these things differently. Like all things in life, the more of these that I have done, the quicker I get with it.
Feel free to email me, if you would like to discuss this in more depth. I am not an expert but I am willing to share what I know.

[billp]

Larry, I have used Artcam Pro to do the kind of work you are describing. I've combined close to 20 different files into a single image and carved them all as a singular unit.
As far as getting "quality 3D images from 2D sources" Artcam does that as well, and probably easier than most other software, but obviously without knowing the kind of work you are planning on, it's hard to give you specific answers.Jeff is right on the money in desribing the cutting process for most 3d work but Artcam also lets you do an "offset" toolpath which will follow the profile of an object.Quality translates into time when cutting 3d files, and you start looking at hours to complete projects.
I can't speak for the other 3D software but Artcam does not really use "programming" as much as it involves filling in the blanks on a series of what they call "wizards'to get your file competed. You add the parameters it asks for, and then a cutting file is generated WITH a full on screen preview of what your finished project will look like ( in a 3D preview screen) as well as telling you how long it will take you to complete the job. This is all done without ever turning on your router...And as Jeff also pointed out, we all get better/faster at the process the more we do it.
You can contact me directly and I'll try to answer whatever I can about how I cut 3d in Artcam.Bill P.

[Larry Lee]

Thanks! Jeff and Bill!
(If I seem a little excited, this is the first time I have participated in any kind of forum on the net. Pretty cool!) I guess, since the router is available 24/7, that the time it takes to carve is less of a factor than how well it does it. I can let it run all night if need-be. I have "sort of" figured that I need to be able to do about 4 images of portrait-sized carvings a day to make any money at this, not to mention my other duties in the shop. I get the impression from you that this is a possibility. There is a clinic on artcam nxt month. Should I attend? Is it worth the $500.? My concept of what I would "like" to do would be; scan the image,tweek it using the program's capabilities, preview it on screen, load the router with material and let it and the computer do the work. Am I dreaming?

[david@thecarpentershelper.com]

Larry do you intend to do raised or incised carvings? If you only want a "portrait" type of image and can do it shallower than the 1/4 to 1/2 deep cuts that you talk about then the tiff converter that comes with the Shopbot can do some very impresive images. look under the heading "converting bitmapped images" under the topic header "drawing cad/cam/drawing software conversions" and scroll down to almost the bottom of the page, You will see a sign I did using the converter and that image is on a piece of maple about 24" x 18" tall the wolf itself is about 14"x18" and it took the Bot right at 1 hour to do. anyway if that will work then look at that possibility otherwise I've done some rosettes that look as if they were chip carved by hand with very detailed lines and have done a type of 3d just using the tiff converter and intering in the values in reverse. Instead of the darkest being the deepest I made the White the deepest. any way just a thought Dave in Wyoming

[grant@shopbottools.com]

Larry, you're not dreaming.
My name is Grant and with my associate Brian we make up the ArtCAM training and support team. We keep our classes small so that individual attention is guaranteed and we tailor our sessions to meet the specific questions and challenges of our customers. I would be happy to cover all of the topics you mentioned here. Also, don't forget that if you were to purchase ArtCAM the $500 is included in that price. So, if you have already paid for training the purchase price of Pro is then $7000 even. I will leave comments about the quality of our training sessions to those that have attended, but I will say that we do our best to make sure no one leaves with the feeling they've spent more than they got back out of it. After all, more thorough training is less support for us and more satisfaction for you down the road.

Grant Bailey
manager, technical support
ShopBot Tools Inc.

[larryl@mypicayune.com]

Thanks David and Grant,
That is a nice piece of work you referenced me to, David. Hard to tell if it would actually be deep enough (or raised enough) since it's 2d on the computer screen and I only have one good eye! I will probably have to carve deeper because I do not want to have to stain or paint the images. I want more of sculptured look and feel, especially when using the solid surface materials. A raised image is what I am after with perhaps a textured background to emphasize the subject.
Grant, I appreciate the input. If you could email the details of the next session I would be glad to consider coming over for a visit. One question that strikes me about using scanned images; If light to dark is used for depth and height of the relief and you want to do a face of a pale person with dark hair, can artcam separate these parts of the image so that the eyebrows and hair are higher than the facial features, etc. Am I asking the question correctly? The ease with which the program could do this would be a major factor in the purchase.

[david@thecarpentershelper.com]

Larry I hope I didn't confuse you as the process I talked about is the tiff2sbp converter that comes with the shopbot software not artcam or even partwizard the artcam pro can get up and dance for you and do just about anything you can imagine. full 3d or what you want to do which is really 21/5d is it's realm. but for converting a photo or drawing into an image for an etched look then the tiff converter is great. David in Wyoming P.S. if you wanted to spend more money you could also buy a 3d scanner then model you image in clay scan it and then duplicate it with the bot but alas that is alot of money too.

[larryl@mypicayune.com]

Thanks David for the feedback. From what you are saying I might try experimenting with the basic stuff but I think I may need something more user friendly. Artcam Insignia is about $4500 less than pro and may do what I need. Any one have experience with it? How about it Grant? Thanks again everybody!( ps I'm having troubl with my email server so I'll get to those emails soon)

[grant@shopbottools.com]

Insignia is a great program, and if you need it's functions it is tough to beat. The v carving algorithm is the fastest on the market and they really cut great. The bridging feature, the advanced nesting with waste vector generation (makes a drawing of your scrap board so you can use it later), toolpath simulation, as well as the great features the standard toolpathing strategies have really make it a good product. There is no training provided or recommended with Insignia, and we get almost no support calls on it. It's that easy to work with. However, the only thing Insignia can do with a photograph is convert it to vectors. The only truly 3d thing you can do in Insignia is the v-carving. Check it out at www.artcam.com.

What I think you are describing, going from a photograph to a bas relief, is just about impossible to do. It is theoretically feasible with ArtCAM Pro's sculpting tools, but I know I couldn't take a photograph of someone and turn it into a relief of them, unless I did it like a lithophane, where the light is transmitted through rather than bounced off of the relief. That's pretty easy, and can even be done with the .tif converter as David pointed out. You just don't have the right information in the photo to make it happen.

Grant

[larryl@mypicayune.com]

Hey Grant! Are you shooting me down? Maybe I can clarify what I'm trying to do. If I can do a bas relief similar to say, the profile of Washington on a quarter, I would be happy. You're saying that this is not possible by scanning a photo of George alone? If not, then what is necessary to get that image? I'm wide awake now and no longer dreaming!

[garlicking@charter.net]

Larry,
Ive looked for that holy grail for 3 yrs now with no luck.
Now I make the item with bondo then probe it with a modified shopbot probe.
keith

[gerald_d]

My logic tells me that any program which tries to convert color/shade information contained in a picture to depth-of-cut information is not going to give you a true 3D relief.

If you have pic of Washington, and one side of his nose is darker than the other due to lighting conditions, no program will give him a symmetrical nose in carved 3D. I am not even going to bother looking for that holy grail.

At best, you will have a "carving" that reflects light in a similar way, or that helps you to stain/sand certain areas so that you simulate the lighting of the original image.

[larryl@mypicayune.com]

OK. Thanks for the input Gerald and Keith. I,m not saying that I am not willing to work on the image to refine it , and as you say, the carving would probably look a little weird if taken off the photo directly into the sb with no modification. However, the carving is possible . I just want to know what it takes to get it. To re-word my original question; Can I scan a photo in Artcam and use it as a BASIS for a bas relief carving using the features of the program? Does any other program allow this kind of manipulation of the image?

[larryl@mypicayune.com]

Thanks Gerald and Keith for the input. OK. I'm willing to work a little for my money here. The carving of George CAN be done. Are there any who disagree? So can the scanned image be used as a starting place and the program (ArtCam or other)then be used to refine the 3d version for carving? If so,(back to my original question) how long does it take and how difficult is it?
Can Gerald's "logic" be minimized by limiting the depth of cut to 1/8" or less. Let's face it. the image of George on that quarter isn't very deep but it is impressive and I could live with it.

[david@thecarpentershelper.com]

Larry what you are now saying is attainable with very little work, what you have to do in say a drawing is to have the background black and the areas you want to have higher or raised either white or a shade of grey, then use the tiff converter,I will post a photo of an eagle I did just like this as soon as my batteries for the camera charge.you see the way they make a mold for the "george on coins or any other coin etc is to remove material from the blank that is the darker area and the shadow areas.this is very basic engraving and you can ajust the depth just like when you do a hand done relief The photos will put yours and anyone elses mind to rest on this the cut is done at 1/8 inch depth.or in decimals -.125 David in Wyoming

[david@thecarpentershelper.com]

Here is the pics hope they post good enough to view. after the sanding the image is aprox 1/16" inch raised David in Wyoming


9081
9082

[david@thecarpentershelper.com]

Well you can hardly see it but if you look real close you can see that the eagle on the last photo ts raised this was done on MDF and painted black the sanded to reviel the image it is about 14'x14" David in Wyoming

[larryl@mypicayune.com]

Thanks David! I feel like I'm back in the saddle again. What if the lighting of the photo was set up specifically for our purposes? Has anyone experimented with that phase of the process? David; I would like to get a copy of that carved eagle to see it first hand, just as it comes off the bot. Please email me with price and particulars and we can set something up. Larry in Mississippi.

[gerald_d]

I don't totally discard this process if the lighting of the original image was set up so that the blackest shadow represents the deepest spot. (Almost edge-lit from right around? A flat ring of light?).

To my mind, this (http://www.deskam.com/deskart.html) site gives an honest impression of what is going to happen. With some careful staining, sanding, lighting of the finished product, and lots of imagination, you may think that you are seeing the Father Xmas again.

[larryl@mypicayune.com]

Thanks for the site location Gerald. Looks interesting enough to try out so I downloaded the demo. Have you used the software? Happy Thanksgiving to all in this stream.

[geobre@aol.com]

This should probably go in trouble shooting, but since it is being discussed here......

I tried to un the tiff converter.
I got the message Not enough working memory to run converter (converter program?).

I figured it was my computer , but after trying two other computers and 3 different versions of the software, I have to expect some other problem.
note. Program never started and returned to shopbot program

Thank You
georeg

[ron_cleaver]

George,

The tiff converter can run out of memory when converting a large file. But you can run it outside the ShopBot software in DOS mode. I believe the executable is ux_tif.exe. It's worked for me.

[steve]

what size and shape cutters do use for this type of work?
ps thought some of you might like to check out this site www.simple3d.com/ polhemus fastscan 3d handheld scanner looks fantastic as do many items on this site, dont miss the photos of the "building a homemade laser line scanner" sorry but it really had me in stitches! great effort though.

[jaum@adelphia.net]

In ArtCamPro under tool selection, finishing wood cutting they have ball point bits but nothing under the catagory of a bowl cutting bit. Is there a way to add that configuration to the cutting tools? The bowl bit has a flatter surface than a ball point but still has? 1/4 round edges. If not, what is a good source for .5 and .75 ball point bits? Using a .25 ball point eats up way too much time.

[pappy]

Jim,

To find the ball-nosed bits you are looking for go to Vortex (http://www.vortextool.com/standard/productDetail.cfm?groupID=268)

[jaum@adelphia.net]

To Doug, and Doc P Thanks, Problem solved! The forum is a great resource with you guys around.

[rgbrown@itexas.net]

Round-nosed bits are sometimes called "Core-box" bits.

I pay less than $20 for any of my round nose bits (Woodline of Arizona 800-472-6950). If I were doing a LOT of work needing a bit of that style I would look at the Her-Saf "cove" bit that cuts a "not perfect" round cove but will probably last three times what a 'brazed' carbide bit will before turning the insert.

Ron

[noah@noahsart.co.nz]

Hi
I am trying to use the TIFF2SBP device, but whenever I start the conversion (F,C,)and open the TIFF file I either get a blank screen that goes back to the shopbot screen without doing anything, or gives me the message
DEVICE I/O ERROR IN MODULE TIF2SBP AT ADDRESS OC72:04IF.
Does this mean that it is not installed or what?

[bruce_clark (Unregistered Guest)]

Mr. Worrall,

It sounds like your tiff2sbp is not setup right in your ShopBot directory. That would generally explain why it goes to the converter and then shows a black screen and back to the ShopBot software.

As for the Device I/O error, that would be because it does not have writing permission to the disk. Are you running XP or 2000? Still, that would not explain why it does not run. Have you tried resinstalling the ShopBot software and the tiff2sbp converter?

If none of this helps, let me know and I will see if I can replicate the error you are having.

Bruce

[kivimagi]

I'm able to replicate the error, but I'm a newbie so I could also be making a mistake.

I don't recall an option to install it during the setup process.

[noah@noahsart.co.nz]

Bruce,I have tried it on both 95 and 98, cannot get shopbot to run at all on xp. This is 3 separate computers. Ive tried loading the tif from a floppy, hard, zip, still get similar error.
When I go to the folder I cannot find anything called tif2sbpthat may not be set up correctly. (Shopbot says it is on the disk.) I made the tif in photoshop. Converted to greyscale.
Ryan, I too was not given an option to install it.
The manual doesnt mention installing in the tif converter section.
Simon

[Noah@noahsart.co.nz]

Hi Everyone
I have done it. Thanks for all your help, still havent got the old software to do it, but I tried the new shopbot driver downloaded from the website and the converter worked well.
Incidentally this software looks good, anyone use it to drive the machine? Does it make life easier and faster? I have not used it yet, only got it on my design computer.

Simon

[kerrazy]

Software is great, and actually allows your machine to run quieter??? and smoother.
Dale

[daniel_carr]

Larry,

Another software option is VS3D.
It excels in 3D virtual sculpting, 3D carving, and 3D engraving.
It also has an image converter to convert image brightness to surface height.

VS3D outputs ShopBot code.

VS3D performs all the sophisticated tool offset calculations automatically,
based upon the tool bit shape and the shape of the surface to cut.
VS3D supports various tool bit shapes including flat, cone, ball, ball taper, bullnose, etc.
If I understand you correctly, the type of bit you want to use is what I would call "bullnose"
(flat with rounded corners).

But best of all, VS3D is currently priced at $975, compared to $7000+ for ArtCam Pro.

You can view VS3D's home page at:
http://www.DesignsComputed.com/vs3d


Daniel Carr - President
Designs Computed, LLC

[lawrencelee@peoplepc.com]

anyone using face wizard in artcam?

[phil_o]

Grant,
Last year our school purchased Artcam Pro. I didn't realize that classes were included. If possible I would be interested in getting information about the training.

[billp]

Larry,
Take a peek at my web page-www.baycraftdesigns.com (http://www.baycraftdesigns.com)

[lawrencelee@peoplepc.com]

thanks bill, i think im getting close

[WOODONE@ASTOUND.NET]

Larry, have you thought about just having the carvings hand detailed? I cut the relief on the bot, then hand finish it. I have been detailing/ carving for years and get a very refined finish on all my carvings.It is faster for me to hand detail the relief, than to spend extra time cutting on the bot. but ,I am a carver, just an option.If you would like to e mail me ,feel free.

[mjpend@sbcglobal.net]

Relief carving from photo. I have had my ShopBot about three weeks now and have done a couple of carvings using the bmp file conversion. They have turned out better than expected for the first time but machining time was over 5 hours on both carvings.7x6 and 4x6 using 1/8 ballnose and 60% v-bit with a stepover of .012 and .02 and move speed of 1.0 ips. Is this maching time typical or is ther something different I need to do?
Thanks in advance

[Brady Watson]

Jerry,
Yes...you can speed up the MS if your machine can handle it. 3D takes a very long time to carve.

-Brady