Off topic but only indirectly

[tracys]

I just saw this in Wood Magazine. All I can say is their must have not been a single woodworker on this jury. We're all going to pay for this one way or another.

Last week a jury in a U.S. District Court in Boston awarded a $1.5 million settlement to a Massachusetts man whose hand was injured in a tablesaw accident. According to a report in the Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2010/03/06/man_wins_15m_in_first_of_its_kind_saw_case/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed5), the plaintiff accused One World Technologies, maker of Ryobi power tools, of failing to include as a safety measure flesh-detection technology (such as that found on SawStop (http://sawstop.com/)) that would have prevented an injury this serious. The lawsuit states that the inventor of this technology offered to license it to toolmakers in the early 2000s, but none agreed to a deal, citing the increased cost as a deterrent to potential customers.

Bet the customer would'nt have paid for the feature anyway.

[burchbot]

Tracy this has been going on for long time now and we have been paying for it. That is part of the reason why jobs are leaving the USA It will only get worse as more people believe they need to fix the evil, profit hungry companies. These people believe the system we have needs to be torn down.
Dan

[cabnet636]

what is even wilder is after the machine manufacturers refused to purchase the technology sawstop built its own tool, (and is selling saws at a pretty good clip) now those same manufacturer's are suing and trying to require sawstop to release the technology, kinda like the days of tucker automobiles.

we are such a smart bunch aren't we

jim

[navigator7]

Uhmmmmm Can SawStop be affixed to politicians? It might be a great tool to protect our constitution.
Nawwww

Dewalt makes a battery skillsaw that turns me into a vat of boiling rage every time I use it.
It's powerless and it has a counter intuitive safety system that makes it the most dangerous tool around my worksite.
It keep threatening to JB weld the dang thing but I'd rather drive over the saw with a forklift. I hate it.

Like government...that saw and it's dang safety feature is going to get me some day.

[gene]

I wish i knew how to get stock in sawstop . If the government mandates that all saws have this technology their profits will soar. I dont remember who has the quote "when they make something idiot proof they will make better idiots" has it right. When will the madness stop

[michael_schwartz]

I own a Sawstop and I have enjoyed working with it since they are very well made, safety features aside. I actually use the blade guard quite frequently since its easy to take on and off, and doesn't get in the way too much.

Hopeful I will never need the safety feature and in a perfect world I shouldn't.

As the whole Sawstop topic always seems brings up controversy if the other guy wants to buy a Unisaw, Powermatic, Grizzly, whatever he should be just as proud of it, as I am of my Sawstop. Thats his choice and hard earned money and if its what he wants so be it.

I don't feel that Sawstops tech should be forced on the industry, but I do agree that the industry should be a little bit more safety conscious as woodworking does have a reputation as being inherently dangerous which certainly does not help with insurance costs for our businesses and in preserving school shop programs etc. If something can feasibly be made safer without affecting function too much it probably should be.

It will be interesting to see where some of this legal precedent leads.

[ghostcreek]

Agreed, we all practice safety, and I'll be first in line for any improvements I can afford. Once we all test drive our CNC, we realize alot. That being said, the second issue here is the habit of Courts (we the people) "punishing" Manufacturer's, Retail Establishments and Individual Contractors ( small business,doctors,lawyers etc...) by imposing large, if not obscene fines! We all remember ; Warning; the Coffee is Hot Lawsuit!?

[michael_schwartz]

We all remember ; Warning; the Coffee is Hot Lawsuit!?

And I don't think that affected the cost of our coffee so maybe our tools will just come with yet more warning labels stating the obvious. perhaps some disclaimers, or waivers as well associated with the purchase.

I will bet the lawyers who make money off this stuff in turn go home and buy woodworking tools at the end of the day.

[rb99]

That is the first time I have seen this. Very cool hot dog demo.

Does the aluminum brake ruin the blade?

Also it will be good on chop saws etc...hey, maybe on the SB?

I guess it won't work with meat cutters though...

RIB

[myxpykalix]

I went to a woodworkers show last weekend and was the guy who was allowed to push the hotdog to the blade for the sawstop demo and i have seen this before on tape but until you experience it first hand it is far more dramatic.

We put a hot dog on top of a piece of wood and i was told to slide it thru fast just like if i was pushing a board thru and when it hit the hot dog.......
BANG! that blade disapperaed and was stopped in miliseconds. Barely nicked the skin of the hotdog.

It destroys the blade and the and the brake so that whole unit needs replacing. I don't recall the cost of the replacement unit but whatever the cost it clearly is less then the cost of a new finger....

[jdervin]

Replacement brakes go for around $70 (not including the cost of a new blade).

[navigator7]

I've never agreed with the comment : "You can't be too safe!"
Followed to it's logical conclusion....A thoughtful person might ask: "Why leave the womb?" Even the womb has it's woes.
More lives, not only appendages, would be saved with a SawStop in the feminine regions.
If power tools were as lethal as abortion, the practice of using power tools would be banned!

I say..."It's not what you got but what you do with what to got."
Three fingered men are living proof they are simply not meant to run power tools.

The courts remove common sense from minds of the injured so the equation in tool safety has become a lopsided abortion.
Job injuries today are career goals and some people's meal ticket to retirement.
There is no shame injuring yourself on the job via pure stupidity.
For some...it's a goal.
Keeerist...It's even a law where I live the employer must inform you the day is going to be a hot one so drink plenty of water! If you pass out from heat exhaustion, the employer is subject to fines if the employee wasn't informed that the day was gonna be hot.

I still think dynamic braking, tort reform and citizen action focused on our elected leaders is a better solution than Marxism and bondage.

Let the free market rule. It works with mouse traps.


http://www.mikanet.com/public/media/osha_cowboy.jpg

[meatbal80]

I got this news in an email 2 nights ago as I was going to bed and it kept me up for a while. If the average consumer can sue the manufacturer for something that was caused by the operator/consumer, whether it was pure negligence or just a common mishap when does it stop. Kitchen knives are quite sharp I know I have cut myself chopping food, or how about suing the pool company or even better the water utility when someone drowns. Every body has been in some kind of car wreck I am sure, why don’t we sue the manufacturer. The courts have gotten a little out of control when allowing these cases to even be heard. This will be one of my examples to show the complete lack of judgment by our judicial system along with the McDonalds hot coffee and the robber with a broken leg.

For those not familiar with the broken leg one a burglar breaks into a house to rob it but somehow gets caught up in the window (or skylight don’t remember) falls and breaks his leg. He then proceeds to sue the property owner and wins.

On another note the cost of your basic table saw will skyrocket if they mandate the saw stop devices. It doesn't make much sense to me to put a 500-1000 dollar safety piece on an $89 machine. I definitely like the saw stop feature and would love to own one but I can’t afford one yet. One day I hope I will, it would make me much more comfortable when my kids are old enough and start using more than hand tools. At the same time I don’t want them getting complacent. The world is a dangerous place and you have to constantly pay attention and use your head, even then accidents do happen.

[burchbot]

Chuck Gallup
wrote Let the free market rule. It works with mouse traps.
That’s only because nice don’t have lawyers
Dan

[navigator7]

Chuck Gallup
wrote Let the free market rule. It works with mouse traps.
That’s only because nice don’t have lawyers
Dan

Dan,
Don't forget, if (m)ice had lawyers, they'd also have a political lobby.
If they had a political lobby, American Taxpayers would be on the hook for the legions destroyed by man's insensitivity.
Yep...I see your point.
Reminds me of a quote from GK Chesterton: When men cease to believe in God they will believe in anything.

Mice Have Rights!

;-)

[mitch_prest]

I don't see an air bag in that contraption.. you could be sued for not licensing that technology.. which brings us back where we started..

removing responsibility from the individual is not the answer.. and that seems to be the road we are heading down.. if you don't belong on a horse or shouldn't be operating a table saw, then all the safety equipment in the world is not going to save you.
Nothing is idiot proof.. and there is always one of those in the bunch...
There are 150 in our shop... and safety is always an issue.. we have guards on everything.. even the table saw had an extra shield made to cover the drive belt. The chop saw is firmly mounted and has all the guards in place.. but... when the switch ceased to function, instead of telling someone and getting it fixed.. the bright fellow got some tape and taped the trigger in the on position... using the plug to turn it on and off... luckily I happened to see it before he got much further.. as I am sure it would have been the fault of the company for supplying the tape...

[dlcw]

When 545 people (elected federal boneheads) impose their will on 300,000,000 people (We, The People), we are headed for a major train wreck. :mad: :mad:

[cnc_works]

<ramble on>
Cost of replacement: $80 plus blade. $100 to $180 total cost, not including service time and down time.

There was a comment in Woodshop News from a shop owner (with employees) who had replaced something like thirty cartridge/blade combos over the three years he had his Sawstop and only one was from skin contact. The rest of them were staples, wet wood and whatever other condition combos which would set off the mechanism. $5K worth of replacements. Which I suppose would still be cheaper than absorbing the costs around the one real incident.

On the other hand, I could imagine my frustration being in the middle of a project on my single tablesaw and have my work come to a stop for the period of time it takes to get a new cartridge. Of course, I suppose it would be prudent to have one on the shelf if you owned a Sawstop.

I've been pushing wood through a tablesaw for close to 50 years and have been lucky enough to have had a couple of minor incidents involving blood and blades that performed the function of warning me..."be more careful". No ER, no $$$, just the warning. The point is, though, that you can't make a shop perfectly safe. While the tablesaw is one of the scariest tools in the shop, I've had worse injuries from far simpler tools.

Education, awareness and attitude are far better protection than any safety devices and if you don't go into your shop armed with those attributes, you are gonna get hurt despite any safety devices.

Bottom line, extension of this judgment provides an impossible set of standards to live up to and is a waste of time and energy.
</ramble off>

[michael_schwartz]

<ramble on>
Cost of replacement: $80 plus blade. $100 to $180 total cost, not including service time and down time.

There was a comment in Woodshop News from a shop owner (with employees) who had replaced something like thirty cartridge/blade combos over the three years he had his Sawstop and only one was from skin contact. The rest of them were staples, wet wood and whatever other condition combos which would set off the mechanism. $5K worth of replacements. Which I suppose would still be cheaper than absorbing the costs around the one real incident.

</ramble off>

There is an override feature if your cutting wet wood, or materials that may contain fasteners. Sounds like an issue Of operator error to me.

While cutting in override mode the saw will tell you if it would have tripped as well.

If one were to primarily cut wet materials the Sawstop might not be the best option. I would have to check my owners manual, but I believe they specify a specific moisture content.

Imbedded fasteners and woodworking machinery are not an ideal situation to begin with.

[waynelocke]

I sold the Unisaw which I had had for 30 years last year and bought a Sawstop. One not so major injury pays for it and those are all one inattentaive moment away. The small cheap saws at Home Depot et al seem inherently unsafe to me and probably account for an amazing number of accidents each year.
Call me a Marxist, Groucho or Karl, but maybe some study is due before throwing out the phrase. I look at 100 year old tools without guarding or safety features of any sort and marvel at the elaborate and beautiful cast iron...and the injuries they must have caused.Why are they safer now? Pretty much two words — government interference. It's the only force large enough to stand up to large corporations and it does result in some ridiculous rules and rulings and lawyer's warnings. It's always a battle for some balance.
I'm old enough to remember the automaker's years long efforts to prevent mandatory seat belts and air bags and I'm the proud victim of an air bag accident. Nissan didn't put them in my truck because they were nice guys but they sure prevented some blood and guts in my 55mph accident.
I grew up around the refineries along the Houston Ship Channel and am also old enough to remember when the air smelled almost daily and the sky was always lit up with flares. Water pumped from the channel for fighting refinery fires had to be siphoned from at least 12 feet deep to ensure non-flamable water. It was not the free market or the good citizenship of Exxon and Shell that cleaned that up. So when I hear of McDonald's coffee and other such things I can always easily find numerous examples which make me grateful for government interference. I also cuss a lot of the stupidity.

[cnc_works]

Yeah, Michael, the shop owner said that the incidence of false stops had dropped as employees were more aware of the problematic issues.

On the other hand, staples and other metal objects are a fact of life in MDF.

It doesn't sound like you have had any false hits...congrats.

[navigator7]

Call me a Marxist, Groucho or Karl, but maybe some study is due before throwing out the phrase. I look at 100 year old tools without guarding or safety features of any sort and marvel at the elaborate and beautiful cast iron...and the injuries they must have caused.Why are they safer now? Pretty much two words — government interference.

Hello Groucho! ;-)
All in good fun and spirit......
I was hoping at least one would find fault with my logic. Alas, I have been blessed!

</Borrowing CNC_Works Ramble Program>

My objection to your comment is >>>I look at 100 year old tools without guarding or safety features of any sort and marvel at the elaborate and beautiful cast iron...and the injuries they must have caused.<<<

I struggle with the concept that a beautiful, old style, cast iron table hooked up to a line shaft via a leather belt and connected to steam engine set out to maim, cause pain and suffering and ruin careers. There is no tool made capable of premeditative anything. This is akin to the news stories reporting out of control SUV's running down a mother and baby in a stroller. The nerve! Or anti-gun rights proponents blaming guns manufacturers for killing people. Insanity!

Further...heavy industry...the kind of industry that created those beautiful cast iron casting has been pushed overseas. Guys in sandals and loin clothes are doing the work that Americans created via the industrial age. American is insolvent largely because of it's recent distaste for building things.

We are a free people. Our freedom is a God given right! I consider myself free. I am a free man. I believe in liberty and the founding principles upon which this country was formed. I believe I have the perfect right to screw up my mind and body and lose limbs through my carelessness. I don't have the right to do this to others. I do have obligations as an employer to care for my employees. The government has a responsibility to level penalties against an employer who intentionally inflicts harm on employees either for profit or from ignorance or neglect.

There are employers that would! They are called criminals and we have laws for that.

There are duties and responsibilities government must act on. But there is a crushing burden government imposes on a Free People who have lost control of their servant. There is only one entity that produces superior quality at a fair price and that is the Free Market.

I'm ranting right now about safety while sporting a wound on my thumb I received from a table saw! It was a rickety POS Dewalt table saw with all the safety features removed because it gets in the way of getting the job done. Nix that statement! I received a wound because of my own stupidity! The table saw has no other duty than to respond to the electrons flowing through it! My thumb responds to the same commands from my brain! My brain was at fault...not the table saw nor my employer!

Frankly, I've never heard of SawStop until this forum brought it up. I like the idea from a marketing and engineering approach but my heart lies with the old cast beautiful iron.

Mankind. A species capable of creating a table saw should have the intelligence to work around the inherent dangers of the creation.

Down below I posted a picture of what a cowboy might look like if OSHA had free rein. Consider this: If OSHA had free rein, how long would it be before all American citizens would be required to attend training sessions to simply get out of bed properly? Have you ever seen and OSHA inspector who wasn't limping, missing limbs or obese? One of the lowest moments in my career was feigning interest in scars located in private areas of OSHA inspector's anatomy! Limping tributes to carelessness all employed by an agency that must find something...anything that is wrong or unsafe.
Unchecked government intrusion makes every endeavor impossible.

The Market is a double edged sword. I live in apple country. The Red Delicious apple used to be red and used to be delicious. They are beautiful specimens today but taste like ****. Every orchardist I talk to tells me the market forced this upon itself. FYI...The Cameo is now the tasty apple. So far, government hasn't taken an issue with the decline of the Red Delicious but at present rates...who knows?

I believe the free market should decide what is important. Safety ... production? Both?
Would you hie an OSHA cowboy/carpenter? Everybody here knows about the Dewalt battery powered skilsaw. What a POS it is because of it's retarded safety feature. Who complains? (I did! Used the rant feature to get it done) Their safety feature is a killer. At least a maimer! Dewalt should suffer financially because of this. I'll never buy another Dewalt tool because the product is just ****.

If SawStop is producing an exceptional tool at a fair price I hope it prospers!
Government should not micro manage. I wouldn't hire government to do anything for me not expressly called out in the constitution. Specifically, I want them to keep the bad guys off American soil so we enjoy our standard of living without IEDS going off with monotonous regularity.

The words "General Welfare" used in the constitution should not be misconstrued to turn a cowboy into a counter productive PIA wood craftsman.

Wayne...what about the 100's of years our ancestors produced products with all kinds of even while using sharp unsafe implements?

If the Market Place says safety is priority one....then the products will mirror exactly what the market wants. I prefer safety in the minds of the hands I hire and quality in the tools I buy.

When government mandates bio-diesel....the poor starve because they can no longer afford food.

That is it in a nutshell.
</Returning CNC_Works Ramble Program cleaner than I found it!>

[myxpykalix]

The only flaw i find with having a SawStop in your shop is that you have several other tools still there ready and willing to take a finger, so until they all have that technology we are going o have plenty of missing digits.
But it is an amazing piece of technology.

[navigator7]

The only flaw I find with having a SawStop in your shop is that you have several other tools still there ready and willing to take a finger, so until they all have that technology we are going o have plenty of missing digits.
But it is an amazing piece of technology.
What are your thoughts on a garage door opener?
Surely people have been killed by such a cruel device?http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/05/woman-found-crushed-to-death-by-garage-door-on-south-side.html
Do we need OSHA training?
Should professionals be called before opening our garage doors?

Frankly...I don't see why static can't simply reverse the direction of the saw blade? We should settle for cutting our fingers nearly in half rather than scraping the skin off a hotdog!

[burchbot]

The problem I have with this man winning this lawsuit is he purchased one of the cheapest saws he could find. High quality saws have better guards. You can buy after market guards etc. I don’t see where this guy was shopping for safety at all.
Dan

[cabnet636]

i split my thumd directly down the middle with the unisaw in 07, purchased cnc shortly thereafter.

jim

[gc3]

Here is a link to a wrist injury I had happen in our shop June 09, I have been back in the shop working since 0ct 09 and getting stronger by the day. No lawyers, no lawsuits, no insurance, just grit.

http://www.plantasymaderasgardenbenches.com/1/post/2009/10/post-title-click-and-type-to-edit3.html


GC

[curtiss]

Do I understand correctly that the yellow bar on the PRS is not really a brace, but just lets you know "here comes the router"?

One can hardly protect everyone from everything, people have lost fingers trimming hedges with lawnmowers...

[navigator7]

Do I understand correctly that the yellow bar on the PRS is not really a brace, but just lets you know "here comes the router"?

One can hardly protect everyone from everything, people have lost fingers trimming hedges with lawnmowers...

I think it was Bubba, 280 pounds of pure beer drinking ignorance located in the deep south that gave us the lawn mower you can't walk away from.
Inebriated, he picked up his trusty POS mower and attempted to trim his hedge. Never mind the fact "Bubba" and "manicured hedges" clash on the surface and should never be used in a sentence.

After the appropriate prayers were offered: "Hey ya'll, watch this!"

Bubba lost control of his gravity operated lawn mowing device misused to trim a hedge and proceeded to chop both his arms off at the elbow.

The resulting court case punished every single user across America with counter intuitive mower system. In a freaky offshoot of unintended consequences new mower rules has been a boon to electrical and duct tape sales!

Don't get me wrong! Nothing wrong with drinking beer. Nothing wrong with the South. Nothing wrong with innovation. Nothing wrong with trimmed hedges. There is something wrong when stupidity of .0001% of Americans is paid for by 100% of those possessing some form of common sense.

Curtiss....That yellow bar??? It's a cow catcher! ;-)
http://www.locomotivegeneral.com/generalparts/images/CowCatcher.jpg

[gene]

I cut the tip off of my left thumb first , then a few years later i did the right one ( just so they were even NOT ) Now i am more careful. No i didnt call a lawyer. I just called myself careless, stupid, and a few other things i cant put on here . My Fault , and i take responsibility for it. Thats life. deal with it .
I sure hope they appeal this and the guy dont get a thing.:p

[dlcw]

I'm hoping the Ryobi turns around and countersues this clown for being stupid - dah! :mad:

Can you sue people for hurting themselves because they're stupid...:confused:

This is exactly what happens when 545 people take control of the lives - cradle to grave - of 300,000,000 people. We get what the majority vote for. :( :(

[Gary Campbell]

Don...
You are correct. We are and should be responsible for our own safety. No matter what the safety device, it can be defeated if there is a will or lack of intelligence. The courts (and or juries)have been much to liberal in allowing what should be a frivolous lawsuit that is the result of carelessness, erroneous procedure or stupidity to return a large settlement in favor of someone that may have erred in judgement.

Ugly can be tuned up at the Plastic Surgeons. Fat can be eliminated by diet and exersize. You just can't fix stupid!

[burchbot]

It is not a sin to be stupid. Blaming other people for your stupidity is.
Dan

[GlenP]

That is the coolest technology for saws. Every school should have one and I hope they develop it for other tools as well. I have never heard of it up here in Canada till this post. Too bad they don't have a retrofit for existing saws...or do they. If not I am sure Gary C could come up with something....you are very talented at that stuff Gary. Wish my bot was modded like yours.:):cool:

[Gary Campbell]

Glen....
Thanks for the kind words. I dont think I would be the best one to do the retrofit that you descibe. My reason is that I have taught my children and the 40+ employees that I have had over the years to REMOVE all the guards and develop habits that allow safe operations. Dumb little repeatables like "The blade only sticks thru the material as far as you want it to go into your hand". I have dozens more.

Any blood proves that they have obviously not been trained properly, have not retained the knowledge, made a bad choice, or were using the tool when fatigued. Children were no longer permitted to use the tool and employees were dismissed. period.

I have only had to look in the sawdust pile for one digit. A subcontractor using his own saw. He was replaced.

Injuries are not accidents. They are the result of some other action or inaction. Most can be prevented. Most of my piers that are missing digits will most likely admit to what they could/should have done/not done, especially when trying to save someone else from doing the same.

[bill.young]

The inventor of SawStop was on the Discovery Channel show TimeWarp, where they do the high-speed photography of all kinds of crazy things, and stuck his finger in a blade to show how well it worked! It's amazing (but scary) to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3mzhvMgrLE

I've had to have some fingers stuck back on after a run-in with a tablesaw, and watching the video still gives me the willies!

[Gary Campbell]

Bill...
That is some crazy scary stuff... and for sure a good idea. I wonder if it gives an operator a false sense of security that may carry over into other tool usage. Like the guys that dont wear seatbelts now that they have airbags.

[cabnet636]

i have used the sawstop and the blade is still spinning at 3450 right smack in front of your fingers, with my numb right thumb i probably more keen than i ever have been!!

jim

[GlenP]

Hey, I think you might be right about "false sense of security". That video is bone chilling....at least I thought so. You got to have faith in product to do that. I wonder if it would make any difference if he was not grounded and was standing on a rubber mat. I have cement floors in my shop and have rubber mats at all tools to reduce fatigue from the hard cement floor. I also have all blade guards removed because lets face it they are a pain in the ???
I have been doing woodworking for 25 years right out of high school and have always had respect for my tools and know they can bite if I get lazy or too courageous and I still have all 9.....oh did a recount and I have all ten fingers. So far worst table saw accident to me has been a part bind between blade and fence and twist my thumb back. :eek:

[widgetworks_unlimited]

In addition to using power tools, I spend my free time rock climbing and as a volunteer fire fighter and EMT... putting myself into situations where a mistake can be the difference between life and death.

I agree with Gary - 99% of "accidents" should never happen. BUT, as much time as I spend in these activities - always preparing to avoid the worst, I also recognize there are plenty of things outside my control. Every activity has some risk associated with it.

One of the things I like most about CNC tools is the safety - both in distancing myself from the cutting action and in the repeatability/reliability of the cutting process.

[gene]

Volvo has a accident avoidance system on some of their models that if you are apporaching the rear end of another car then it puts the brakes on for you. With this judgement if i buy a chevrolet and crash it into another car then i can sue chevrolet? For not have installed the same safety system?

[rb99]

I have to disagree about training and accidents etc.

When doing repetitive tasks, there is the chance your mind will wonder. Even the best trained people with years of experience have this happen and screw something up. Experienced electricians electrocuting themselves etc.

So to say a person should be more careful and too bad it is your fault for being stupid if you cut off your fingers is not the way I think. I want things to be idiot proof, especially if I am the employer. I know a guy who had an employee decapitated on a large wood cutting operation. Years later he still is very much bothered by it, even though it was the employees fault.

If there is a device that can save someone from loosing life or limb, why not use it?

RIB

[navigator7]

RIB,
Should safety be imposed at the expense of our freedom and liberty?
I'm not a fan of artisans submitting to government's views how things should get done in my shop.
I'm no a fan of injuring, maiming or death. That's why hiring the best and the brightest ain't a bad idea.
Promoting American Exceptionalism is a far better accident avoidance system than resigning oneself to the idea only idiots are available for employment around rotating and sharp equipment.

Idiot proofing America is not constitutional nor affordable unless it is requested by a free market.
If safety is dictated by our government with a goal to wipe out injuries in the work place.....the net affect will;

1. Create a breeding ground for idiots.

2. Force productive work to other countries who have not outlawed common sense.

Is not an "Idiot Proof Workplace" decapitating in and of itself?

Legislating an idiot proof workplace is like telling a women she must love you.

[gene]

I agree with Chuck.
Richard , If it was the employees fault then he was not using the equipment the way it was designed to be used. If the guards are in place and it is used in the manor in which it was intended to be used then an accident will not happen. Maybe those electricians need to take up basket weaving .
I said earlier that i too have been cut by a saw because there was not a guard in place. I had removed it to cut some dados earlier in the day and had not put it back on. Clearly my fault and i take full responsibility for it.
If the saw stop were forced on the wood industry i think that some unseasoned woodworkers would be less careful around the saw under the pretense that you cant get cut on it then next they will treat the radial arm saw the same way and a bad accident will happen

[dlcw]

So, where does it stop? (no pun intended)

Government mandates that Sawstop technology be forced into every tablesaw made in the US or imported into the US. Next, someone cuts their finger on a router and sues Porter Cable for not having a similar technology on their routers. Now all router companies must come up with Routerstop. Next is the bandsaw, then the drill press, then the Japanese handsaw and Marple Chisels. These will all have to have "Ouchstop" technology installed.

When do we step back and say common sense must be the order of the day not big government! A government powerful enough to give you everything you want is powerful enough to take away all your freedom and liberty. At some point we need to hold people accountable for their actions.

Always having a lawsuit ready to file for dumb, inattentive, careless, stupid, drugged-up people is not the way a society should operate. These people should take up a safe career like couch potato. But then they'll fall off the couch in a drunken stupper and sue the couch company for not having guard rails and then the hole cycle starts again to protect couch potatoes from themselves.

The cycle we are in will be the destruction of a wonderful nation that was founded on hard work, common sense and people taking responsibility for their actions, not big government legislating every aspect of our lives from cradle to grave.

Our forefathers fought and died to get out from under tyrannical rule and pass on a nation for freedom loving people. Why are we moving back in that direction? There's no place left on earth for people with common sense, good work ethics, high morals and a longing for freedom to go and discover and start over again. America was the place for people to go to get out from under tyrannical government. That is now coming to an end.

We inherited a free nation from the sacrifices of our parents and grandparents. We will pass on a socialist nation to our children. Very sad.... :( :(

[myxpykalix]

maybe this could be part of the healthcare bill we just had shoved down our throat? Under the heading of preventive maintainance?

[phd1658]

Scratch a politician and you'll find a lawyer (99% of the time). Lawyers take care of their own. They're great at passing more laws to put more money in lawyer's pockets. The public is to blame, we keep electing them. Trial by peers is a joke. Most of the time, they pack the jury with a bunch of sympathetic idiots. I know, I sat with a bunch of them. The defendant was clearly not to blame, but the plaintiff wound up with a big settlement. Why? Well, my fellow jurors reasoning was, "He's insured, no one will have to pay". Never mind the fact that when insurance rates go up, we all suffer.

I lost a thriving business due to product liability issues. My lawyers maintained the suit was frivolous and that I had a 95% chance of winning. Well guess what? In this country, even if you win your liability case, you still wind up paying for the defense.......and if the cost of defense is more than you can afford, too bad, so sad.

Sorry if I sound bitter, but it is because I am! One good thing I've heard about Canada's legal system is that: 1. You have to go to Canada to file a liability claim against a Canadian Company. 2. They have a pretrial to ascertain whether the suit has any merit. 3. It is illegal for a lawyer to take a case on contingency. 4. If you bring a liability case and you lose, you pay for the defense lawyer. All this might not be correct, but darn good ideas regardless.

I could spend the rest of my life rambling on the subject, but I think I've made it clear as to how I feel about it. I'm not saying that there is no place for liability suits (nor am I saying I want to move to Canada), but in this country we have taken it waaaaaaaay to far.

[burchbot]

maybe this could be part of the healthcare bill we just had shoved down our throat? Under the heading of preventive maintainance?


Now you are thinking Jack. The government could come in and remove anything they deem dangerous.
We need to vote the bums out. That is if elections are still allowed in November
Dan

[joewino]

I wonder why they always use a hot dog in the commercials? If it works so great, why not just put your finger in it?

[navigator7]

The SawStop is a great idea. It's worth should be established in the market place, not in the courts and its implementation free from unaffected members of a government agency.

The problem is not purchasing the SawStop...the problem is being forced to buy the SawStop! This is Marxism, not free market economy.

Will the day come when I'm prevented from teaching my grand daughter the dangers of running with scissors because the government has mandated all sharp come equipped with a SawStop? What kind of a Nerf society would we live in where total obliviousness is like Darwin's evolution of a species??

If we accept cradle to grave carer from our government we will so be speaking another language...or worse.

[bleeth]

Amd would we call what we would have to get: a "Bot Stop"? Try to imagine what it takes to stop a 10HP 3 Phase slider with a scoring blade!! And what it would cost to replace that cartridge and blades.
This comment is coming from someone who had their first bad cut accident in many years just a couple of months ago and the resulting numbness in parts of two fingers will last for another 10 or so based on an estimate of how long it took for the nerve to grow back the last time. It was that damned saws fault.....NOT. I goofed, I pay. Such is life.

[gc3]

Amd would we call what we would have to get: a "Bot Stop"? Try to imagine what it takes to stop a 10HP 3 Phase slider with a scoring blade!! And what it would cost to replace that cartridge and blades.
This comment is coming from someone who had their first bad cut accident in many years just a couple of months ago and the resulting numbness in parts of two fingers will last for another 10 or so based on an estimate of how long it took for the nerve to grow back the last time. It was that damned saws fault.....NOT. I goofed, I pay. Such is life.

Dave I know what you mean... about nerve regeneration!... link below to see my "bad cut"

GC

http://www.plantasymaderasgardenbenches.com/1/post/2009/10/post-title-click-and-type-to-edit3.html

[gene]

New product on the market!!!

Pre order NOW

Rubber saw blades!

[rb99]

i guess it is a slippery slope, but maybe if the safeguard exists and is proven, it would be nice to utilize it. Perhaps if your kids are the ones at risk it would seem like a better idea?

RIB

[gene]

The saw stop is a great idea. NO doubt, It should be a choice to buy it or not. For it to be forced on woodworkers because of the carelessness of a few is what i am against.

[navigator7]

i guess it is a slippery slope, but maybe if the safeguard exists and is proven, it would be nice to utilize it. Perhaps if your kids are the ones at risk it would seem like a better idea?

RIB
Richard,
My kids and grandkids are at risk!
Sunday, we saw the destruction of our constitution.
The destruction of Common Sense by government imposing ridiculous regulations is the destruction of our way of life.

Hmmmm?? Safety or liberty? The choice is clear for me.

In the not too distant future:

Woodworkers imprisoned for using sharp tools;
sawing wood without government authorized minders in attendance;
failure to document opening and closing times of a can of spar varnish
contributing to the destruction of planet Earth!
http://gentlebear.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/one-flew-over-the-cuckoos-nest.jpg

[Gary Campbell]

Richard...
All my children were using shop equipment before they were 12. They were trained on shop safety and firearms when young. Training and experience are very important. Maybe they should stop the sale of tools to persons unless they have been properly trained.

Chuck....
You need to find a proper forum to air your policics. We cant be your only online friends. This is a ShopBot forum. (read as SHOPBOT) The quality of postings has deteriorated here lately (see this thread: http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7419 ) please dont add to it by placing non pertinent info into these threads. Should you ever actually buy a machine and ask a question here, I will make it my personal quest to make sure you get 100 irrelevent posts for every question that you post. You can be sure that each and every one will make reference to both concrete and politics.

[gc3]

Richard...
All my children were using shop equipment before they were 12. They were trained on shop safety and firearms when young. Training and experience are very important. Maybe they should stop the sale of tools to persons unless they have been properly trained.

Chuck....
You need to find a proper forum to air your policics. We cant be your only online friends. This is a ShopBot forum. (read as SHOPBOT) The quality of postings has deteriorated here lately (see this thread: http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7419 ) please dont add to it by placing non pertinent info into these threads. Should you ever actually buy a machine and ask a question here, I will make it my personal quest to make sure you get 100 irrelevent posts for every question that you post. You can be sure that each and every one will make reference to both concrete and politics.


...Thanks Gary, well said.

GC

[waynelocke]

Here. Here.

[ken_rychlik]

Gary,

Thanks for saying what I was thinking.

Kenneth

[toych]

Great idea Gary.

Expose the kids to proper technique and procedures right off the bat. My girls are 11 and 9, they like to tinker in the shop. I haven't let them tackle a job on the table saw yet but if they show an interest I'll teach them the right way.

They have each helped design, set up and machine some simple projects for their rooms using the Bot.