I'm loosing it...

[paco]

Just how many of you Botters keep getting those 'Missing com...', loose communication, hangs and complete crash of SB3 (ShopBot control software - whatever the version)?!

I've been fitting this plague at my end for years now and it's just getting worst lately.:confused: Overall, I must be loosing at least 10% of my machine time (not to mention my enthusiasm to work with my tool) recovering from various communication problems. Don't ask!!! I tried pretty much everything else than religion on this...

Just curious to hear about how it goes for you at your end...

[rcnewcomb]

Grounding and a new serial/USB took care of it for us. We may get a lost comm about once every few months -- usually while using the keyboard to move the gantry.

[curtiss]

A good 4' copper clad ground rod, driven into the soil, surrounded by some rock salt, as close as possible to the machine, is the way to go I think...

Anything less might not be enough.

[dlcw]

The most important thing is to get everything on the machine grounded together at a common ground point. This eliminates ground loops in the system which can cause a lot of these problems.

I've got everything on my machine that is not bolted or welded together tied together with 12 gauge insulated ground wire to a common point. Then that point is tied to the building power ground with a 10 gauge insulated ground wire. The VFD is tied to the same common ground point as well to ensure no ground loops here as well.

I haven't had a lost comm. problem since all the grounding was put in place.

[zeykr]

Currently have 2 machines on latest software, a PRS and a PRT 4G and neither has missing com problems. Do have all components tied to common ground.

[Gary Campbell]

Paco...
I have fought this problem, with varying error messages, since my machine was new. I have grounded everything (twice), moved the machine, replaced all LV wiring to the gantry with shielded, and have now virtually eliminated it with the exception that I almost always get a couple erroneous stop hits or lost comm errors when my machine is cold. The majority of these after keyboard entry. Mouse acceptance rarely if ever returns error.

I have gone thru dozens of "things to try" from tech support. I now believe that officially they (SB Tech Support) think that this is an environmental problem. In other words, some type of electrical interference that is particular to the local environment where the machine sits. Some places are just better or worse than others. They also believe that this interference comes from outside sources.

I disagree. Here are a few reasons why:

Bill Young's side by side machines. One had/has the problem one doesnt. Same room, same installer, same environment. Documented. Upgrade of prox switches has eliminated problem.

It appears, and SB Techs reccomend, problem goes away then limits are switched off. This, to me, almost proves my theory. Why advertise limits as value added, when turning them off is solution?

My machine, especially when cold, can produce multiple stop errors before it ever moves, before the spindle, dust collector or any other equipment has been started. Let it sit for 1 hour and problem goes away.

I seldom, if ever, have a stop hit when machine is running. Ratio of sitting to moving is 20/1.

Like you, I feel that the problem has become worse with newer generations of the software. I used to "prove" this (to myself) by switching back to a previous version and watch a problem go away. I was not alone in these actions. We have since found out that this may not be a good thing.

It appears that the programmers never considered that someone would want to revert back to an earlier version. Versionality errors in registry and .ini settings really mucked up the works when swapping versions. Programmers obviously dont have their livelyhoods on the line when a new version doesnt perform, at least not to the extent that we do.

I will be picking up an PRSalpha 9660 ATC machine next month. Due to possible lack of credibility with TS by having many user modifications, this machine will remain factory stock until it can be proven to me that it works.

I am sure that it will, as they have had plenty of time to tune it up, albeit in a "sterile" environment. :)

[chiloquinruss]

Paco, just a thought, it sounds like you've had your machine for a while. My machine is fairly new. When I received my bot it came with a seperate usb hub. It is supposed to help with 'comm' issues. Could it just be that you need one of those usb hubs? Russ

[michael_schwartz]

I have had a few Missing Com Errors on my 4G PRS Standard but they seem to be mostly caused by attempts to cut too fast. My normal jog speed is 6 IPS, and the fastest I have successfully cut 3/4" plywood was 5 IPS in two passes with a 1/4" bit I have experienced missing com errors when attempting to jog or cut faster than the above speeds. I have never had a com error while cutting at normal speeds. I have had a few unexplained com errors, one of which I think I can associate to a power brown out. A few others when the machine was cold but always in between files.

[richards]

On my PRT-Alpha, I use opto-isolation between the controller and all input signals (prox. sensors and Z-Zero plate). I haven't had a problem since I isolated the signals and replaced the factory prox. sensors with similar units that are run on 12VDC instead of 5VDC. The opto-isolation handles the voltage difference between 12V and 5V.

[frank134]

Hi I had my prs alpha for almost one and half years now and still have com Errors too the point were I almost ready to give up. I have done everything I read on this form and A fews I came up with.
1. New Computer with only the shopbot program On it.
2. New usb hub. Best I could find.
3. new usb cable
4. Grounded EVERYTHING WITH NUMBER #6. Three 3/4" x 10' copper ground rod too a copper bus. Everything is grounded to this bus.
5. Isolation Transformer for Everything.
6. Ups system for the computer and bot controler.
7. All the new upgrade
8. reloaded the firmware
9. completely reformat the computer load latest software and again reloaded the firmware.
Still , even right from start it will lose the comm port or can't fid it.
I don't beleive this is a ground problem.
Do you think I could a bad board in the controler.
What did I miss.

[ken_rychlik]

A few thoughts based on my two machines.

Both 4g std machines.

I was having trouble with the new sb3 for a while when it was buggy. (3.6.5) time frame.

They sent me a newer v204 interface card for my controller.

I had tons of trouble with lost comm. I did the hub, usb card, several calls to tech support. Finally after the bugs were out of the sb3(version 11) I put my old card back in and have not had trouble any more.

My prs 4g also has that old board now and still no trouble.

I did have some trouble getting the ecab link running and a lot of that was due to not enough ram on the pc to the bot. It was loosing com during the link running.

I put 2 gigs in it and those troubles went away. (Thanks to Gary)

I would think on an alpha with newer controllers, Ram would be critical as well. Folks running those machines can give you more insight to the pc's that work on em. If I were going alpha, I would be looking for at least 4 gigs of ram on my pc for the machine.

If your machine is trying to run faster than your pc will allow, I think you will loose comm.

Kenneth

[frank134]

I have a core 2 duo with 8 gb of ram and solid state hard drive. I would think this would be enough.

[ricky_spearman]

I installed a amplified USB cable, cleaned and shrink rapped the connections and wow, no more trouble. This was on PRT-alfa, and I thought I had a big problem,:D Nope,just a weak com signal..

[adrianm]

Another cause of comm errors that was causing me to pull my hair out last week is USB devices that go to sleep.

I switched to a wireless keyboard/trackball setup that went to sleep halfway through most jobs. Not a problem you would think but whenever it woke up again (usually caused by vibration rather than me using the keyboard) a comm error occured every time.

I've also had comm errors when unplugging my thumb drive but that one is down to old age forgetfullness.

[paul_z]

Paco,

Have you changed the material that you have been cutting? Wood is slightly conductive and may help to hide static problems. Cutting something like PVC or ureathane make make static problems much worse.

Paul Z

[paco]

It's really random at my end. It really seem to be relate to the USB management...?

[rb99]

Wow...does everybody but a few lucky botters have this issue to some degree?

[donchandler]

When I turn on the computer and start the shopbot software, I always get a message that it can't find the tool. I unplug the USB cable from the computer and plug it right back in. I then tell it to retry and everything works. Does anyone know what to do about this?

[paco]

When I turn on the computer and start the shopbot software, I always get a message that it can't find the tool. I unplug the USB cable from the computer and plug it right back in. I then tell it to retry and everything works. Does anyone know what to do about this?
Sound familiar... Since sometime, I moved the control PC for troubleshoot this issue, whenever I get this 'Missing com...' prompt, I generaly can resume after unplugging the USB cable of the control box. Otherwise, I'm stuck for good.

I get the feeling that the control box (what exactly I can't say) somewhat mess with the control PC (and/or Windows') USB management... I tried two different PC.

Maybe it's also worth mentioning that, in my case, I get a first 'Missing com...' prompt then, after a few seconds, I get another one then it just crash and I need to end SB3 process from Windows Task Manager. Like I said, I need to unplug the control box USB cable for the next SB3 start to work correctly (connect with the tool).

Like I said in the previous post, it's so random at my end that I cannot associate the problem with something in my shop setup... but I keep trying...:(

[bill_lumley]

Wow , I am really confused now at the variety of proposed solutions . I have a new Alpha and I am getting Comm Errors while running the E-cabinets Link. I have a new Windows 7 PC with 4G of Ram and it looks like when running the link I don't even use 1/2 of it . It appears from these discussions there are at least 6 possible areas to look for solutions to this
problem :

- More RAM (I have lots)
- Grounding (tech support told me what I had done was adequate)
- Amplified USB cable (never heard of these)
- Turning off limits
- Changing limit cables and devices to shielded cable and opto-isloated devices(expect Shopbot to provide if this is what is required !!!)
- going to a wired keyboard and mouse (mine are wireless but will change if this is a problem)

The only 'simple' solution of the bunch is to disable inputs and by this I think people mean the limit switches and the zero plate . Is there a way
to disable these in software without opening up the control box and takign the wires off . Zero plate I obviously want to use when not running design files so want an easy way to disable it ....

I guess I am confused by the whole Comm Error issue . Is this a noise issue on the USB line where the PC/control box is flooded with messages it doesn't understand or is it a loss of communication . I echo the frustration politely expressed here . I lost it today after hitting this error twice in 20 minutes while running a job . I have sent a letter to Ted demanding a solution we can implement with confidence as this is not a toy and I can't afford the days on the phone with tech support or the countless trips to the hardware store trying to engineer solutions to what is clearly a BIG hole in the design of this product :mad:

With any luck Ted will respond here so we can all benefit from a working solution .

Bill

[fredtoo]

Comm errors have been an ongoing, since new (3 months), problem with my PRS Alpha and 4 hp single phase spindle. Grounding has solved 'some' of the errors but until yesterday I could not do a continuous cut for more than 15-20 minutes without an error. Prior to my grounding exercise (x-rails tied together, x-rail to dust collector, wire through dust collector hose, x-rail to ground inside control box and x-rail to pc chassis, I often could not get past a few minutes without an error. So what happened yesterday? I decided to ground the spindle control box chassis even though it was grounded via the power cable from the control box. When I opened the spindle control box (first time ever) to see where it was safe to drill a hole for a ground screw I found the little board which the USB plugs into resting on top of the fans inside the control box. The four little foam stickies had let loose at some time. I relocated the board and grounded the control box chassis to the control box heat sink and to the x-rail.

So, since that time I've cut two test files, each over two hours long AND the spindle speed control on the pc now works (it never did!).

No happy dance yet, but I'm warming up......

[bill_lumley]

Greg , thanks for sharing . You made me thinking of something on my Alpha that may be a problem . When I mounted my VFD I did not have room to use the supplied Shobpot brackets and so mounted the VFD to the frame using a piece of wood so in fact my VFD chassis is insulated from the frame . So I called a buddy of mine who is building a Mechmate and he said he was having all sorts of issues with files not running and eventually it came back to the connection from the VFD and Spindle in his case . He said what happens is when the spindle is under load it creates a field that if fed back to the controller will end up overloading the relatively weak signal of the USB connection . His comment was to make sure that the shielding of the Spindle cable is properly connected so that it is not acting like an antenna to drive the power of the Spindle signal back into the control system . This also explains why the inputs are part of the resolutuon for some folks . By disconnection the limit switches you are taking away an antenna from the VFD signal and limiting the power of what gets back to the control box .

In summary he said it is more of a shidling issue than a groudning issue but can manifest itself as one . The explaination also explains why I was never able to get the VFD speed controller working . All I was told on that one was to make sure the VFD cable did not cross the USB cable but I think it is all related . If you have that USB device inside the VFD connected to the same USB HUB as going to the PC of course that VFD signal will get fed back if grounding is not done properly in the VFD .

I hope this makes sense . It is hard to describe but frankly I think Shopbot really needs to get it's act together on this issue ....:(

[fredtoo]

Bill,

Ditto for me. I mounted my VFD controller on a piece of plywood parallel to the Y-axis on the middle leg, more or less under the table. I 'assumed' the power ground to the SB control box would do the job. Also, in my case the little USB board sitting on top of the fans could not have helped.

I didn't mention in my earlier post that all my added ground connections are sanded so that I have a good connection to bare metal.

But I did mention, no happy dance (no videos allowed) yet but I'm hoping.

[bill_lumley]

Well I talked to Ted Hall yesterday and we 'discovered' a few things while talking . Firstly I had the exhaust from my vacuum motors pointing at the control box on my Alpha and the exhaust can get quite hot especially when it was funnelled through the muffler on the vac so was only about 8" from the control box with it's blast . Aparently the control card will shut down if it detects too much heat . In an upcoming software release there is a facility to monitor the temp. in real time inside the control box .

Another point came up when I mentioned a com error I had seen early on with my machine when I touched the dust collection attachment point to the gantry while the machine was running . I have flex plastic piping connected to a galvanized metal pipe which is attached with band clamps to the gantry . In effect I had my dust collection foot grouded through my gantry instead of back to nuetral where I thought it was going .


I have removed the muffler on my vac to allow the heat to disperse more and put an insulating layer between my dust collection hose and the gantry . I have only run 4 sheets without issue so I am not ready for the happy dance either but I am more hopefull than I was a few days ago . Ted also assured me they are looking at improving the handling of the Comm Error in a future release but I didn't get specifics on that ....

Bill

[paco]

Ted also assured me they are looking at improving the handling of the Comm Error in a future release but I didn't get specifics on that ....
Yeah, if it just wait rather than crash...:confused:

Most, if not all, of my latest 'Missing com...' prompt/crash has been while the tool is idling with nothing running like during the night or lunch break, in between files run when I take care of the parts and scraps and also during K mode.

Ted has been emphatic to my problems as well and I'm very thankful for that.

[bleeth]

There seems to be one major difference between my upgraded PRT with Gecko's and what I have been reading about those with regular comm issues on this thread. That is that my control box is hooked up to the operating computer with a serial cable and high speed serial card rather than a USB. It would probably take more technical analysis to see if this is actually a difference that makes a difference or not but it does seem like a place to look.
I can tell you that my operating computer is not all that strong and is not loaded with ultra ram. My machine is grounded, but once again, I would not say that I have gone into extremes in making sure that every bit of it is totally grounded in the most perfect way. Cables are not very isolated from each other but I will say that I am most definately not running the most up to date SBC software. I stopped upgrading just as the first 3.6xx came out.
I have a distinct feeling that some of the more technically edgy developments that have been done to the bot in the last few years had a bit too little field testing under various operational conditions and too quick a release due to an (understandable) desire to please the more and more demanding nature of the professional user. When one looks at the few short years between the PRT and the latest Alphas and even PRS's the difference both mechanically and technically is exponential.
Throw in the R & D on the whole Buddy series, and the pending release of the next generation Bot and you have an awful lot of changes in a short time. To properly test each and every one of these updates to the nth degree and ensure that they all operate flawlessly would tax any operation, let alone one as closely held as SB.
It could be that it is time to slow down on new developments and spend some time verifying all the operating parameters of the current equipment and software. A bit of managerial conservatism could go a long way here. After all, if SB is, as seems clear, going after a larger market share of those who simply wish to plug in their machines and make dust, than the dust needs to be made as intended.
Those are the thoughts of this very supportive SB'er anyway.

[beacon14]

I had similar lost comm errors several years ago over a period of many months. Long story short when the computer finally died, I took it in for repair and was told one of the memory cards was defective. The card was replaced by the manufacturer, and the lost comm problems went away.

I know at least one responder listed a new computer as a troubleshooting step that did not help, but there could be more than one reason for similar problems in different shops. If you have these problems and can swap computers to see anything changes, if might be worth a try.

[boubou]

Hi everyone, if this can be any help...the only time as was getting (missing com) messages was when i was trying to push the xy speed too fast for my prs standard, loosing com going around corners.
4 weeks ago i upgraded to a spindle and i was getting (miss com) error all the time, could'nt get the bot to work properly. So i took a 14ga (normal plastic wrapped house wire) and grounded the spindle mounting plate to the power earth ground. I dont have any more problems and running ecabinet since with big files, 20 sheets and more. i am using window 7 with great success. Boubou

[paco]

Anyone is having disconnect, 'Missing com...' and such with laptop?

[bill_lumley]

Hi Paco , sorry you are still have these ... I may be on to a solution for mine in a place I never expected it . Ted tells me the Controller card in the Alpha (and I expect standard) will shut down or show eractive behaviour when there is not enough cooling . I am using 4 of the central vac motors for hold down and had one pointing directly at my control box . I did a successful run for 1 hour yesterday with no issues and no vac motors pointing at my control box . I am not sure I have solved it yet until I get some runs that go for 3 or 4 hours but it may be a strong possibility . I measuered the output temp of the air on those vac's and it was 180 degree F climibng to 210 degrees F when there is a muffler attached to it !

The electronics are only rated at 180 degrees F but can show functioanl failures at temperatures below that . Good Luck . Hope to see you at th eCanuck camp coming up .

Bill

[paco]

Hmmm... I doubt but I'll give a check tomorrow. Thanks!

[paco]

I'm still experiencing disconnect, 'Missing com...' and crash.

I had an opportunity to try a laptop for a few hours last week during a day where my regular control PC (or the Bot control box?) was failing just too often. No disconnect what so ever with the laptop... I'd be curious to know if people with laptop are having less (read no) problem of this kind. It seem that it may have to do with the battery/UPS system in them. Are you using a UPS on your Bot control desktop PC and not having this kind of issue?

I want to take a moment to thanks Ted Hall at ShopBot for his help on this issue. Even though it's not yet resolved, he as been looking at my problem ever since it started. It's a very frustrating issue and he has been very understanding of my complains.

[adrianm]

Strange, I would have thought that a laptop would have been likely to cause more problems not less.

If nothing else it shows that the problem must be with your PC rather than the bot I would think?

[paco]

Like I said in an earlier post, I tried another desktop and I was experiencing problem as well.

Ted also suggest that I get another control PC (laptop) but I can't afford a spare PC neither I need one... no one can guarantee that another control PC will solve the problem... cause I wouldn't hesitate if it was the cure to my problems.

[ken_rychlik]

Paco,

I mailed an older pc in to SB last year when mine was acting up. It turned out to be their software, but I told them the pc was not worth sending back, cause I already purchased another one for my machine.

If they still have it and will send it to you, as far as I'm concerned you can have it.

It was an hp desktop.

Kenneth

[Brady Watson]

Paco,
Having been 'on the road' & doing a lot of installs, tune-ups and repairs, here's what I have noticed:

Dell desktops have inferior USB hardware. Nearly every single one I have encountered either drops COM or shows a very low (like 52%) communication efficiency.

USB cables longer than 10 feet will result in frequent COM issues.

The ideal recipe seems to be the following:

1) Install a PCI to USB card in the CPU. This gets the USB channel/bus away from being shared with the keyboard, mouse and any other peripheral.

2) Plug a USB 2.0 self-powered $15-25 hub into the card. This opens up the USB bandwidth substantially by creating an 'Enhanced Port'.

3) Plug the 10' or less USB to your control box into the hub.

If you are still experiencing issues, I'd put money on your USB to Serial converter being bad. You can buy another IOGear for $15-25 if you shop around. I just had a customer experiencing frequent disconnects & it turned out that the USB/Serial converter was on it's way out.

I used to get frequent disconnects running a v1.1 USB port on my computer. After swapping out to a 2.0 PCI card AND a 2.0 hub, I am happy to say that I haven't experienced a COM error or disconnect in at least 3 years.

-B

[bbrozo]

Paco -

I'm using a Lenovo IdeaPad S10 netbook and haven't experienced any comm errors. It's a PRS Standard 48x48 but I just got it about a month ago so I haven't done much "heavy lifting" with it yet.

Bill

[ken_rychlik]

I am running mine on a Dell desktop with no issues and 87% connection speed.

I am using a radio shack serial to usb convertor that was about 30 bucks. I have it plugged into a hub also.

There is just so much "stuff" to go wrong all you can do is try one thing at a time.

Considering it worked with a laptop, it sounds like you have it narrowed down to that.

If your serial or usb cable worked on the laptop, it is prolly good.

KR

[Gary Campbell]

First: Nice to see you around here Brady!

As a side note and with USB issues aside, possibly one of the main differences between a laptop and desktop is that the laptop chassis ground is isolated from that of the control box, most likely eliminating any ground potential differences. Maybe this is why SB cannot experience many of these issues on their machines.

Paco...
to test if you have a ground potential causing your problems take a wire and attach it to the chassis ground of either the computer (non laptop) or the control box. With SB3 running, touch the chassis ground of the other.

If you get an error, shut down SB3, connect the wire at both ends and restart SB3. If all appears normal, run some files with this configuration to see if your comm errors increase or decrease in frequency. Good Luck

[frank134]

Hi Guys …
I have told you all that I keep losing my com port and receive com port Errors. So I called Frank and we have gone through everything step by step. What we came up with was, I had replaced my 4 port usb hub which came with my ShopBot with a Belkin Hub. (While having problems with the com I looked up the one that came with the Shopbot and found at it had a very high failure rate). It worked for a little then it went downhill until I couldn’t even find the com port. So Frank advised me that the Belkin hub was not compatible with the control box. So who’s to use? Radio shack had a Gigaware 4 port usb 2 part # 26-160. This has seemed to solve all of my problems. I have run it now for a week and a half. I even took off the ground and the bypass isolation transformer that I installed. So my best guess is that these problems lay between the controller and the computer. I really don’t think this is a grounding problem, which I found hard to believe in the beginning. I just had a very hard time thinking it has to do with noise on the line. I think they have to start looking at the connection between the control and the computer. I hope this help some of you.

[paco]

Currently, I'm running what I believe to be the latest control board and card. The USB cable, provided by SB is connected directly into the control card; no serial apater.

The control computer is a rebuild of myself. The motherboard is an ASUS. I get a very good reading (~72-75%) on the communication speed test.

PCI USB adapter, I'm wiling to give that a try. Does price matter much for the piece of hardware? They go from $10 to $75... Something like that (http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3331701&CatId=511) would work?

Ground testing... well you know how it is; it can seem to be very good but then... it's electronics... when it test good, what's next to seek for about grounding?!

[ken_rychlik]

It is more the external HUB than it is the card Paco. Both wouldn't hurt though.

FWIW, I used one of the current v204 cards and could only get 70% speed with it.

I went back to what they called the "old world" interface board and I stay over 80% connection speed. Usually 87

I am tempted to upgrade my prs to an alpha, but I just don't want to deal with the connection troubles that seem to come with them.

I don't remember if your on a 4g or an alpha, but if it is 4g, the old card connects better on my pc's.

Kenneth

[blackhawk]

Is this a good example of the type of usb hub that everyone suggests to add between the bot and computer? Is it still a good idea to plug the hub into its own PCI card?

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Dynex%26%23153%3B+-+4-Port+USB+2.0+Hub/9115664.p?id=1218062141344&skuId=9115664&st=usb%20hub&contract_desc=null

[ken_rychlik]

Brad, i think that one really should work, but shopbot recommended the "io gear" brand.

Having it's own card should be best, but you can do the connection speed test and see where you are at.

Kenneth