Mica & Led's

[joe]

I had posted earlier my fascination with mica powders. This is one of my experiments which is getting me closer to a finished product.

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One of the requirements was to have LED's on the letter backs to provide a wash effect off the background. I knew up front this was going to be a problem since the stone background. Also the developers wanted front spot lighting. That would conflict with the lettering wash. To solve the problem, I've cut a outline letter from 1/2” clear plex. Then beveled the plex 60 degreet and applied LED lights inside. That provides bright edge lighting.


The developer comishoned us to build a 6'X32'X4' stacked stone entrance sign with water features on each end. This part of the work was put out on bit. I was lucky to find a fellow who has been doing this kind of work and I let that contract. Construction should start in two weeks, depending on the weather. The letters should be ready in plenty of time.


The design was provided by the architects which came with approved city permits. That part is locked in but the lettering was left up to us.

[zeykr]

Can you show us a picture of it lit? And maybe one of the back to show the led's.

Thanks

[dvmike]

Joe
The ideas that you come up with are amazing and seem to always pop !
Great !

[wcsg]

There are a couple of different ways you can get a good edge lit effect with your clear acrylic, not sure which way you are going about it with your LED's

[joe]

Erik,

What we've done is have the router make a pass down the center of the letter with a 90 degree bit. In that grove we placed our LED's. The letter hides that grove.

What other way is there?

I'll be posting a few photo's show the effect as well as the fabrication.

[aaasigncom]

HERE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF ROUTING A CAVIITITY and using flexible ribbon leds glued in place - making electric signs for 30 years and still having fun. .75 PLEX the front is painted opaque red

[wcsg]

Bingo, there's one of the ways! I'm still looking for the pics.

[joe]

I appologise for taking so long to show the progress on this sample. We're fortunate to be very busy.

I usually don't make samples expressly for a customer but this job is large enough it's justified. Today, when I put the sample out in the display room and switched on the light I knew I was on the right track.


This sample is only 8" and too small to house the LED's corredtly. The actual letters are 24” and 18”. The plex is 1/2” and I had to put a V grove along the centers to distribute the light. Since this was my first attempt all that was a blind stab. I found the depth and size of the grove wasn't critical.


The gold effect is Mica. It's brilliance is close to 23K and not difficult to apply. Anyone who's interested in gilding should try this technique first. I hope to show some of the steps later.


I've been preaching, preaching, and preaching the necessity of making samples. The best example of this came when a new customer came by this afternoon about an hour after I put the sample up resulting in another sale. It's works like magic. .

[wcsg]

Joe I'm guessing those are Permlight, Agilight, or AVA. Or it could be the awesome LED's from the Canadian fellow.


Anyway, thought I'd post a few pics and leave the how-to the imagination here.

You can imagine how small these letters are, the are a thickness of 3/8", 1/2", and 1" face lit acrylic. A contour, halo, and front lit letters. Clear and black resin is used.

http://thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/jobs/resin%20leds/res1.jpg

http://thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/jobs/resin%20leds/res2.jpg

http://thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/jobs/resin%20leds/res3.jpg

http://thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/jobs/resin%20leds/res4.jpg

[wcsg]

http://thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/jobs/resin%20leds/res5.jpg

http://thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/jobs/resin%20leds/res6.jpg

http://thesignsyndicate.com/miscstuff/jobs/resin%20leds/res7.jpg


Remember when working with LED's, what you want to do is find a way to diffuse the pinpoint lighting from the wall and not get shadow form your pins.

[joe]

Erik,

LED's are new to me. I've searched several manufacturers websites and read all the claims which are difficult to put into application. I'm aware these light can be purchased in flexable ribbons. None of which, to knowledge, are enough high output. I won't have the option for extra fixtures. It must be done with a single row of LED's.

My example was done with "ThinRaz" from Agil Light. Not sure they are the best but that's what I've come up with. The big advantage of other manufacturers ribbons is the closenes of lights. Which translates in fewer hot spots. I've noticed the examples you've posted are all large stroke, small block letters. I'm sure you've worked with thick and thin letters and scripts with edge lighting. Not washes. What would you recommend.

This project does not call for a wash. We are working with a background which is very dark stacked stone. That's the reason I decided to go for plex with the wire line. For these letters I'm looking for a more jewel look. I want to stay away from the flat block, "Used Car", type lettering.

Agil Inc. informed me they also have units two inch spacing. The cost is approx. $13. per foot. Their standard product is 3" which I'm affraid may not spread the light enough. The Ribbons would be best but if the Lumins aren't too shallow. So far they look a little weenie.

I'm fairly confident with enough trials we will pull it off.

As usual I follow the lead of my Hero's, Walt Disney.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[navigator7]

Erik,

.....This project does not call for a wash. We are working with a background which is very dark stacked stone. That's the reason I decided to go for plex with the wire line. For these letters I'm looking for a more jewel look.
I'm fairly confident with enough trials we will pull it off.

As usual I follow the lead of my Hero's, Walt Disney.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

Would a fresnel cut into the end or edge of your plastic letters do anything for the look your are seeking, Joe?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Lentille_de_fresnel.jpg/170px-Lentille_de_fresnel.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e8/Fresnel_lens.svg/220px-Fresnel_lens.svg.png

[jerry_stanek]

We use the bright white LEDs for behind our letters for Trade show displays. Thet are super bright and easy to work with.

[joe]

Chuck,

Perhaps that would work. How would you do that? Have you seen this done for edge lighting? I want to follow the leader.

[jerry_stanek]

Here is a sample of the LEDs behind the letters

[joe]

Jerry,

Thanks but that's not what we're after. Please read my previous post. We are NOT after a wash!

[navigator7]

Chuck,

Perhaps that would work. How would you do that? Have you seen this done for edge lighting? I want to follow the leader.
"For these letters I'm looking for a more jewel look."
I don't believe you want to follow anybody, Joe.
Just about any lens cover on a car should give you an answer.
Triangles!
I noticed your cut on the plastic letter was relatively smooth but a fresnel cut would diffuse the light.
For that matter so would sand blasting.
Just an idea.

You didn't talk much about mica powders. Is this a stone derivative?

[joe]

Chuck,

There's precious difference in the sandblsted look of plex compared to what a router bit leaves behind. After thinking over, a fresnel might not increase light transmission.

You're probably right about my following habbits. I would really prefer not having to research these techniques. It's time consmuing and expensive. What I'm after is a look. And I'm allways in hopes of hooking up with someone who's been down these paths.

For me, I can see the final job in my mind, it's sometimes difficult to get there. But that's the job. I'm not very open to letting standard, tried and proven, techniques and materials limit my dreams.

[jerry_stanek]

We did one job with what you wanted but I don't have pictures of it. Clear .75 plexi with the a 2 rail sweep angle sweep on the edges and a solid color across the rest. We did stand some of them off and some were mounted solid. One part was push though letters also. Lit by LEDs. I will see if they have any Pictures at the shop. This was for a Job that was going to Europe.

[rick_woodward]

Looks great as always. My question is. Wont the UV destroy the plexi ? Or am i not up to speed on plexi for exterior use? rick woodward.

[navigator7]

Chuck,

There's precious difference in the sandblsted look of plex compared to what a router bit leaves behind. After thinking over, a fresnel might not increase light transmission.

I didn't mean for you to consider grinding in a lens shape in a quest for a perfect textbook "fresnel lens" effect. A sharp facet or two may work.
A step cut ? Have you a scrap piece to see if a radius, ogee or some vee cuts might produce the jeweled look?

Speaking of jeweled look...and perhaps it is too late ... but built-in light into your water feature? Here are some ideas:
http://www.betterpaths.com/IMAGES/IMG_0223_crystal-cryptinite-with-molds.small.img.JPG
http://www.betterpaths.com/Concrete-Countertop-Molds-Vertical-Concrete-Molds.htm

Monofilament is being used in water features and concrete counter tops to create pinpoints of light to set off a feature. Awesome stuff.

Have you considered casting your plastic letters to include mounting and lighting requirements?

[joe]

Chuck,

Yes there will be LED lighting in the waterfall shoots. Those fixtures are made from 4"X32" clear plex.

That part of the work is being constructed by others.

[joe]

This photo was taken to show the client what a watershoot looks like. I'm considering using blue and green LED's. It was a freezing day and there was ice in the pond.