3D Routing from Gray Scale

[joe]

Does anyone have experience with producing 3D images from jpgs as gray scales? Ken Zey has directed me over to V Carv Pro and that was an excellent lead. There are fellows over there trading their files.

I would like to give it a try on a portraits. The standard ArtCam process, using their carving tools, takes way too much time to become accomplished.

I'd sure like to talk to someone who's worked with this process.

Joe
(405) 366-1038

[rej]

joe,
i've done several conversions.
i first take the pic to photoshop and crop it.
then i save it back to my pic folder.
then i import it to aspire.
i have found that sometimes it works in color just as good as a grayscale.

if i don't like it, then back to photoshop and simply convert it to grayscale.
then sometimes if it is very crisp, i use the glaussian blur filter to blur it a smudge or two.
then back to aspire.
this has worked extremly well for me.
good luck.

[bob_s]

Joe;
It can be done with Aspire, but it is like anything else, not automatic. In the Aspire tutorials there is one about modeling a fish, and they use the photo of the fish as both a guide and a texture. I have tried some this way, and it works, BUT the texture part is only a small help.
The main issue is that dark tone are "back" and highlights come "forward". that is not really how a face works. The eyes work ok, but the area under the nose that is usually in shadow does not want to go in, in relation to the cheeks. If you raise and lower shapes and then use the image for hair and skin texture, as they used the fish image for scales and small fin texture, it works well. I did a lot of work with some "bump mapping" software to make 2 1/2 D from stereo photos - it just doesn't work well enough to be worth the effort. As most things - the non automated way produces the best art.
I will be happy to talk to you via phone, but our daughter is getting married this weekend, so I am officially "unavailable" until next week.
Bob

[joe]

Thanks fellows. This is the kind of reply I needed.

I can see how using Photoshop would a real advantage. It's one of my favorite programs too. Although vector images can't be replaced, I think gradients have lots of petential.

Bob, that's very interesting about bump maps. I was heading in that direction for some work. It was my hopes of importing some of my bitmaps into a wire mesh propgram for corrections. From reading your post that doesn't seem as if it would work. I'd like to know more about the complications or difficulties.

I guess I should mention I don't have any problem with carving. As a matter of fact, sometimes a sharp chisel is faster to solve a little problem than mousing around on the computer.

Thanks for your assistance.

Joe

[joe]

Greetings Router Heads,


The attached photo came from CSA, Creative Signmakers of America, and was posted by one of our members, Doug Haffner. We've been posting examples of model signwriters tool box. He is in the process of building one. This is the front cover made from pine.


The routing was done with a entry level router (CW). I believe all of these files are done with halftones and not vectors. It's impressive and prompts me to look further into the process.

I'd appreciate any information if anyone has some.


Joe Crumley

[carve_1]

Joe,

I have seen several attempts at 3d modeling using grayscale, but I have not tried it as yet.
In the attempts I've seen, if the model was complicated at all, it suffered control problems of one sort or another. The only indication of that type of control I see in this cover is where the eagle's wing dives into the background,,, other than that,, this is stunning and I would also like to hear more.

Charles

[myxpykalix]

try these greyscales. wings and a design

[joe]

I was fortunate to get a little help on this topic from another CNC fellow on CNC Zone. He suggested I look at MeshCam. I did and it was an eye opener. They have a 30 day full run program for free. Unfortunate, the main guy is off on vacation for a few days so the necessary codes, to get started' aren't presently available.

Surely someone has tried out this program.

www.meshcam.com (http://www.meshcam.com)

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[mikeacg]

I started doing 3D grayscales with a beta program from John Knoll (who had a hand in creating Photoshop) about a million years ago. It was for the Mac and you basically painted your images in black and white and it converted them to 3D images (I think it was a forerunner to gaming design software). Here's a write-up:

Cybermesh
John Knoll, one of the original developers of Photoshop, has released CyberMesh, a plug-in that allows 3D models in industry-standard DXF format to be created from standard grayscale images. The DXF file can then be saved and used in virtually any 3D program. It's a simple plug-in but it works well. The number of polygons in the resulting DXF files can be adjusted, and the model can be rotated directly in the plug-in window.

I have used the techniques for years to create 3D designs for my laser and continue to use it to prepare photos for use in Aspire. I'd be glad to try and help anyone here understand it better...

[joe]

Michael,

Thanks for the intro to this program.

That's what I'm looking for is a conversion program. One which will get a photo ready to export into a 3D carving program.

Do you have any examples or suggestions on how to start?

Joe

[carve_1]

Michael,

Obviously, the attempts I saw did not use this filter before conversion.

I would like to follow along,, I Googled Cybermesh, but ran into dead leads.

Charles

[joe]

Me too Charles.

Cybermesh has some older date to it. It's been around for a long time and doesn't seem to have much current usage.

Here's something interesting: I'm fairly accomplished with PhotoShop but when reducing a color photo down to a series of gray scales isn't the same kind of converstion used by ArtCam or Aspire. That process has to be done in the 3D program itself. At least that's what I'm understanding.

[carve_1]

You are right Joe, Aspire will convert a jpeg to a 3d model with one click of a botton. The light areas advance ( add z hieght ) in the model and the dark areas receed. But we do not want this to happen in some instances. Aspire has no means to manipulate this action and I end up with a distorted 3d model.

The Aspire tutorials use the image of a fish. I can not build a correct 3d fish model from the fish jpeg using Aspires conversion, but i can use the jpeg to apply texture to the fish I build from the jpeg after I trace vectors from it, and use Aspires "create shape from vectors" tool.

I need to manipuate the greyscale so the 3d model will form as I want it,,, which program can do this ?

[mikeacg]

Cybermesh has been gone for a long time. I think I still have a copy kicking around but the beta version I had only worked on Mac and was pretty basic. But it taught me how to visualize in 3D.
Let me see if I can make this clearer. I generally do a little bit of work on the photos before I bring them into Aspire. For example, alot of animals or people will have dark eyes in a photo. This would translate into a hole in Aspire which would look horrible so I retouch the photo. Look at this gator head. I airbrushed the eye to be a round ball light in the front and dark around the edges.
A good example would be a billiard 8-ball. If you used the photo of the ball it would be unsuitable. So you would need to change the black ball to a white, shaded ball. On a real ball there are no variations in the diameter or it wouldn't roll smoothly so the white circle and the black number 8 have to go. You can add an 8 later if you want but in the 3D world it wouldn't exist on the surface of the sphere.
The grasshopper is a good example of what I generally do. It will give me a great texture map in Aspire but do not think that it will give me an accurate 3D model. I like to trace the object to create pieces that I can manipulate separately for depth in Aspire. I would bring the Grasshopper bitmap in and make it a component and then add depth to it by creating outlined areas that I can adjust (height, angle, roundness, etc.)

[joe]

Charles,

That was my experience also. I'm on the hunt for a useable program to make this conversion. I'm sure there's one which will render simular quality images like CW.

One interesting lead is http://www.grzsoftware.com/ but I haven't had a chance to give it a try.

For your test, it may require bouncing back and forth to Photoshop, changing up the light to dark area's. That would probably be too much trouble.

Michael,

Good going. I know this process has potential and you have proven it can be done. Thanks for the post.

Joe

[mikeacg]

Well, I ended up posting that before I was done...
Anyway, I have done some grayscales that worked as completed models. For example, this cross is a design that my father has been carving for years. I decided that since he is no longer able to do it I would convert it to 3D and grayscale seemed like the best way to go. I used the blend tool and the airbrush tool in Photoshop to generate these images. The minor variations in the surface can either be smoothed or ignored since the ball bit tends to hide that kind of detail. I brought them into Aspire, sized them and adjusted the thickness. These were fairly simple images to create from scratch, unlike a photograph.
I like to think of the photographs I bring in as a textured fabric and then I put shapes under them to fill out the needed shape using vectors and the modelling tools.
I've got a bunch of work to do today but I can try to explain this further later this week if anyone is interested.

[mikeacg]

Joe,

Looks like an interesting program. I'll have to grab the free trial and give it a whirl!

[joe]

Mike,

I'd appreciate your input.

I'm not trying to find a way around the tradition vector based 3D programs when doing basic shapes like letters but they are often too complicated and technical. Portraits of animals or people are a good example.

This is fun stuff to work with.

Joe

[carve_1]

The application I had in mind was to take a picture of a lighthouse per say,,, manipulate the color scales,, and bang, a 3d carved still life.

It is currantly faster for me to trace vectors and build components,,, and then top with texture.

Seems to me,, since software developnment travels at light speed,, that something would be availible.

[joe]

Michael,

I look forward to see your fathers crosses.

One of the movements afoot is the sharing of gray scale 3D images. Ken Z put me on to this. I'll see what I can find on the topic. After all anyone, anywhere could import them and put throught their program and start carving.

[mikeacg]

I think I understand better what you guys are looking for and will see what else I can find. At this point the learning curve is probably pretty steep to do them directly in grayscale but at least you can gain a little advantage - like lightening up hair on a brunette so her head doesn't look like it collapsed...

Here are some of the finished crosses. The beauty of doing them on the CNC is that I can make them any size and do them in a whole lot less time than I used to by hand.