VFD not responding to spindle control

[chunkstyle]

I know this problem has been discussed and I've tried doing some of what's been suggested in earlier posts. My spindle control window always comes up with the word "Preview" and wont work with the VFD. This has been going on since almost day one. It did work for a short period of time, then it would stop working but the part files toolpaths would be o.k. with setting the tool's RPM's. Now my files wont do anything for the RPM's either and the VFD doesn't change except manually.

Plugged the usb from the spindle directly into the computer, om the front, while the control box is in a hup pluged into the back.

I talked with technical support and we got it going again. Just got back from going down to the shop to run an e-cab file (trying to tweak my settings some) only to find that the spindle control isn't working, yet again.
This is really getting old and expensive.
Anyone have this problem like I'm having with a "preview" in the window and no control over the VFD thru the spindle control software or the part files?

Did I mention how old this stuff is getting? Sorry but I gotta vent.....

[chunkstyle]

O.K...

Just went down and rebooted the HD. Re-launched the SB3. Brought up the spindle control and had the RPM being displayed. Hot damn it just might work for once!!!

Brought up the manual key pad and turned on input one to start up the spindle. Changed the rpm setting and the spindle changed rpm's! Tried again and...AWwwww ****! Stopped working. Just a dead stick again.

Spindle control window will update to the VFD's setting if I change the prm's at the VFD so I guess that's something. Havn't run a part file yet to see if it will change according to the part file settings. I think these machines were built for the lord Buddah hisself! I'm really running out of patience and compassion.

[chunkstyle]

Just ran the parts and the vfd is now changing according to the part file. This is some improvement, sorta. Still cant use the Spindle Control, however. Not getting any warm feelings yet.

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...
You say "still cant use the spindle control". Please explain how and when you do this

[chunkstyle]

Hi Gary,

When I warm up the spindle I have to manually type in the rpm speed as the spindle warm up routine doesn't work (doesn't change the rpm's as it is coded).
So instead I will just walk over and punch in a new number in the spindle control window and run the spindle up and down manually that way. Now I've lost that ability as the VFD doesn't respond to any number that I type in here after the first one is entered manually. It will take the first manually input but no more after that. At least that is how it is currently behaving. I also like to see what the spindle rpm is during the file operation and it is easily visible from my computer screen. Not so much from the vfd's location. It is currently updating the RPM in the spindle display to show what the spindle is cutting at when a file is being cut. That isn't always the case (more often not) and the spidle control panel either says display or an erroneous number.
So basically the spindle control display is more of a liability than a benefit. Won't change the spindle rpm's and will display an incorrect rpm.
then there's the issue of the vfd not jiven with the tool's rpm parameters but that's still another headache to solve yet...
It's like wack-a-mole with these issues sometimes.

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...
Can you post the code from the non working warm up routine?

I only use the sp contr from a file command, and dont manually enter rpm, so I am not familiar with how that works or doesnt.

I have read a number of posts on this, but the majority of those issues appear to be working now. You may want to do a search, as there is a bunch of info on this subject.

What software version are you running?
Is your computer USB 2.0 compliant?
Are the front ports USB 2.0?

In some of the cases where the spindle control didnt work when spindle was running, moving the spindle board outside the VFD box helped.

Post your file and we may be able to get you running

[chunkstyle]

Gary,

I'll try and post the warm up code tomorrow, if I can figure out how to find it. I look into the USB 2 and the computer that I'm using.
I'm running the latest sb control, I think its 3.18. I'll check it tomorrow and post back.
Thanks for you help and advice,
Tim

[chunkstyle]

Gery,

The warm up routine is the C5 that came with the SB3. It has never worked right from day one. Maybe that should have been a tip off but there were a lot of other things going sideways at the time. I think Ted's facility or mine is located on an old burial ground.

I have sent out for some shielded security cable. 4pr. 18 guage. It was suggested by tech support to replace the unshielded cable that connects the board to the VFD. I will try locating the board outside the VFD as well.
I'll report back on the results. One step forward....

[chunkstyle]

Replaced the cable with shielded. Did not work. Made it worse. Spindle control will no longer open. Hangs up the SB3. Not good.

[chunkstyle]

Spindle control software is erratic and keeps locking up. Rebooted computer, moved cables around etc...
Will try moving the spindle usb device out of the vfd housing next.
Will report back on it.
Not good. Very disappointed by this machine so far.

[chunkstyle]

Pulled the spindle USB board out of the VFD housing. Located it away from the vfd via an 8' shielded cable. Started up SB3 and opened up the spindle control panel. It will change the speed of the spindle in the vfd display if the spindle itself is not working. If the spindle is actually spinning, it won't change the spindle rpm if you punch in a new number in the spindle control. Shut off the spindle and you can change the spindle. thru the spindle control panel. The VFD display will change and the spindle will spin at that speed when turned back on.
Moving the USB board out of the VFD housing has cured the spindle control program from locking up so far.
I guess I'll wait to hook the log chain around a table leg and drag it out with the tractor. I'll go to the house and have a beer instead. Wadda week!

[chunkstyle]

O.C.D. kicked in and I went back to the shop.
Here's what I'm finding.
Fire up computer. Fire up control box. Launch SB3.
Open spindle control panel.
Change speed thru spindle control panel-VFD display synchs.
Change sped at VFD- spindle control panel synchs.
everything works so far.

Turn on spindle thru manual control panel/output one switch.
Change speed at spindle control panel-VFD no longer synchs.

Shut off spindle thru manual control panel/output one switch.
Shut down spindle control panel.
Shut down SB3.

Relaunch SB3.
Open spindle control panel. Open manual control panel.
"Preview" appears in spindle control panel display.
punch in number in spindle control panel- VFD display does not change.
Change rpm's at VFD- spindle control panel does not synch.

Shut computer and control box down.
Fire up computer computer.
Fire up control box.
Launch SB3.
Same as above.

I think it's the spindle. I think that when it's turned on the USB connection between the VFD and computer is lost. Computer has to be restarted to re-establish connection to the VFD.

I will start in with grounding the spindle mount back to the control box's ground bar as well as the VFD housing as was suggested from an earlier post from Paco on lost com. errors.

Will report on results tomorrow. Hope this is the cause.

Tim

[srwtlc]

Tim, you may have to try an RFI filter. My spindle would knock out my DSL connection every time it was started. After installing the RFI filter from ShopBot, the problem is gone.

I have always used a RS485 spindle control board setup and rarely had trouble with it, but when I tried one of the ShopBot spindle control boards, it acted just as you describe. I went back to my other setup and haven't taken the time to test the SB board now that I have the RFI filter in place, but I should. I would assume that the RFI filter would take care of the problem.

Scott

[jdervin]

Tim--

My spindle control was behaving exactly the same way as you describe. One thing I found to avoid the constant re-booting during troubleshooting, was to simply unplug the spindle USB cord from the computer and then plug it back in. (I may have had to quit the control software too.)

Everybody but everybody told me it was RF from the spindle. I'm surprised that you got it to work by pulling the USB board out of the housing as I tried a distance of about 10' and saw absolutely no improvement.

For me, a big breakthrough came when I was cutting a file that kept being interrupted by lost comm errors. I switched computers to solve the problem, and quite by chance tested the spindle control, which was still connected to the original computer. This was the first time I saw the thing working while the spindle was running -- meaning my problem was most likely USB related. In fact, I couldn't get it to freeze up at all.

I experimented with an external USB hub (by borrowing one from another setup) and that seemed to work. I then bought one to use with my SB computer and have seen some of the same old problems redevelop.

Unfortunately I haven't had time to experiment beyond that as I am having to focus my attentions on other projects.

If you can figure out any way of doing so, I would recommend experimenting with the ShopBot being controlled by one computer and the spindle being controlled by a second. Of course, you won't be able to send commands from within a file (including the C5 command), but try adjusting the spindle manually while air-cutting something. If that works for you, it will make two of us who can claim this.

[chunkstyle]

Thanks Scott and John,

I will focus my attention on the RFI filter and USB hub both. Hopefully one of them will be the root of the problem and I will finally get this taken care of.

Much appreciated,
Tim

[chunkstyle]

Quick update. I went after the grounding issue that Bill Lumley descraibed in Paco's post. Took some 12 guage wire and connected the one end to the spindle mounting plate and the other end to the ground bar inside the control box.

Fired up computer, control box, SB3.
Launched spindle control.
launched keypad control.
Changed speed in spindle control-VFD synchs.
Vice-versa.
Turned on spindle via input 1 switch on manual keypad control panel.
Changed speed in spindle control panel-VFD does not synch.
Turned off spindle via input one switch.
Change speed setting in spindle control panel-VFD WILL now synch!

Grounding the spindle plate to the control box has made some progress with this problem. I now lose communication with the VFD only when the spindle is on.
Before grounding the spindle mounting plate, I would lose the connection between spindle control even after the spindle was turned off. I had to restart computer and control box.

I will try grounding the VFD to control box ground bar next and report on it.

[chunkstyle]

Grounding the VFD housing to the control box ground bar has made no difference.

[dlcw]

This is one of those problems that many people have had and SB Tech Support, for some reason, can't offer a fix for.

My spindle speed control was not functional like yours. The spindle warm up routine never worked. Called SB Tech Support many times and could not get any resolution from them.

I ended up putting the spindle control board and the SB controller on two separate USB cables to two different USB-2 ports on the computer. I used an extension USB cable on the spindle board and ended up using a USB extender cable and a Radio Shack (I still thing SB should have reimbursed me for this since theirs was faulty) powered HUB. The control USB cable plugged in to the HUB and the HUB plugged into a USB-2 port using an extender cable. This worked ok but I still had some comm lost problems. I then unplugged the power cable from the powered HUB and viola! Things are humming along very well now. My spindle warm up routine is working well, I have not had a lost comm problem in months and things seem stable.

SB Tech Support never offered this as a possible resolution (let alone help fund this resolution) over the course of several months of troubleshooting. I don't know why - but it has worked for me.

Your mileage and results may vary... :rolleyes:

[chunkstyle]

Thanks Don,

I have just returned from town and tried using a separate powered USB hub from the computer to the VFD USB card that is now outside of the VFD housing. The remote USB card is now connected to the VFD with shielded cable.

Still operates as before!

Spindle control synchs with VFD if the spindle is off.
Turn spindle on and communication is lost between computer and VFD.
Turn spindle off and communication re-establishes itself.
I'm starting to think about the RFI issue mentioned earlier.



Thanks for your advice, I'll try it next.

Tim

[srwtlc]

Tim,

A little light for the end of your tunnel (hopefully)! :)

Since it seems that I may be the only one that has installed one of these RFI filters, I thought I'd take the time today to switch out the RS485 control for the SB control and see if it has made any difference. I assumed that since my DSL no longer gets booted offline when the spindle is started that the SB control would work now too, but just haven't taken the time to test it since my other one is working fine.

Confirmed, it works just fine. I ran it through several rpm changes with the keypad toggle on and entering values in the control window. I used the shift +\- keys to change the rpm up and down. I ran it through the warmup routine. I ran a file that has several rpm changes up and down throughout the file. All with no problems.

Since my VFD is mounted too far away form the computer to use the supplied USB cable, I used some 8 strand copper telephone wire (just used 4 strands) that I had laying around and placed the control board next to the computer.

There's one thing that is different in this mix since the last time I tried the SB control and that is that I've just recently built a new computer and got it hooked up to the machine (PRS Alpha). I'm now running Windows 7 64 bit with a 3ghz processor and 4 gb ram. My feeling though, is that this wouldn't have made the difference.

So, for what it's worth, the RFI filter seems to have taken care of my problems. The bad news is that it'll cost ya $180 from SB to give it a try. :(

Scott

Edited to say...

I just finished a run of 100 knife boxes and the SB spindle control worked just fine as I finished up the last of the boxes. The files have several rpm changes and not a one was missed. So for me, the RFI filter seems to have taken care of it.

[chunkstyle]

Tried Don's USB set up and unplugged the power to the hub. Still does not work. I will try going the RFI route as Scott suggested. I surely hope that this will work. I need to get beyond the mechanical/ electrical issues of this machine and start working on the other software issues. It will be nice to have this machine operating correctly so that I can finally start making money for my business. This has been very draining.

Thanks for the suggestions. They have helped a lot. It's very much appreciated.

Tim

[ssflyer]

Scott,

What type of rfi filter? For the power lines, or the USB line?

Ron

[srwtlc]

Ron,

It's on the 220v power line. It goes between the power coming into the VFD and the VFD itself as close as possible to the VFD. I have the large box Yaskawa VFD (220 single phase with a 4hp HSD). Had just enough room inside to mount it right behind the cover on a bracket.

It was drop shipped by SB from EEControls. D-MDC-30 Power Line Filter. Can't find it on their website www.eecontrols.com (http://www.eecontrols.com).

Scott

[dlcw]

Tim,

If this is a new machine you bought from Shopbot, make sure you really push them to help finance all these "fixes" to get the machine running.

I spent a couple hundred dollars on top of the cost of a "new" machine to get it running properly. I personally think ShopBot should pay for these "fixes". The machine should work, without all these addons and fixes, when you get it from the factory.

[chunkstyle]

I'm waiting on the RFI filter and, hopefully, it will be the last of the issues. Shopbot has been made aware of this most recent problem and is sending it right out in the hopes of resolving the problem.
I agree Don that this seems to be a problem of design and that we shouldn't have to pay out of pocket for something to work right when new.
Box was dropped in early Feb. as I recall.
I hit my limit over the weekend with my ongoing problems and wrote to Ted Hall expressing my disappointment. He has stood behind his machine and is willing to do whatever it takes to get us up and running.
I hope there will be no more problems making it necessary to take him up on his offer.
I will report back on the RFI filter working or not.

Tim

[dlcw]

Tim,

I know the feeling. If it hadn't been for Gary Campbell helping me to scrap the SB files and implement version he wrote that actually worked, I would have insisted that SB take the machine back and refund my money.

It took me over 5 weeks, several broken bits ($$$$), several broken drill bits ($$$$) and a lot of ruined material to finally get my machine operating correctly. I also had many hardware issues that needed to be fixed.

Several of us also found out that going back and forth from one version of the software to another caused a lot of problems. The problem was we would get an upgrade, install it, and things would start going wacky. We would go back to the previous version that worked. SB admitted that they didn't even think of that possibility and backword compatibility was not something they had even thought about. If you decide to go back to a previous version that worked, you will have to do a bunch of computer cleanup.

I hope you're able to get the gremlins out of your machine and get it working properly. I just wish it would work out of the box like other CNC machines do.

[chunkstyle]

Thanks Don,

It doesn't sound right but it helps to know others have had similar experiences to what I am going thru.

After running some more test files with SB tech support yesterday and seeing more oddities, it was decided that a visit was in order and they are sending someone to get these problems resolved.

I very much hope that it can be taken care of. Seeing other members work has been darn inspiring and helped me to be patient and resolved. I've been saying to myself all along that if others can do it then I should be able to. I hope to be producing and showing soon as well as making money.

Again, thanks for the advice and insights. It's appreciated.

Tim

P.S: By the way Don, your web site is looking real nice. Have you re-designed it? Nice work!