LED Light

[cartar929]

We finally got our new sign up for our office. The sign is a back light LED halo style sign, made using hdu. I cut the letters on the backside with a channel big enough to fit the LED lights in.

The LED's were supplied by N.Glantz & Son and they were very helpful and informative with the process, since I needed a lot of info because this was my first LED install. I haven't had a chance to see the sign when it is truly dark outside, however I hear it is extremely bright and easy to read. The pictures shown are about as dark outside as I have been able to have seen it in yet.

The sign is stud mounted and used PVC spacers to hide the studs and the wires that had to be fished through the building. The smaller letters were just foam taped and siliconed onto the building.

Anyway I was wondering if anybody else had used LED's much and maybe had some examples to show. I think it is something I would like to do more of because it adds a different element to the sign, and was a pretty cool project to work on, and is something I still want to know more about.

[signtist]

Nice job!
How do you remove the letters to replace the lights?

[cartar929]

I am not really sure of the best way to do that. I would try to pull the letter out of the wall. I over sized the holes for the studs in the wall and glopped them full of silicone.

I guess if it really came down to it I would more than likely have to replace the letter(s). I suppose if it were aluminum instead of hdu letters I would be able to pull on the letters a lot harder because I wouldn't have to worry about them breaking.

I am not really sure of the best way to go about that for a future project, anyone have any ideas?

[sailfl]

Would you share what kind of price the LEDs cost?

Thanks

[cartar929]

Nils I would be glad to, but the thing is I am not sure of the exact price. I believe our sales rep from N.Glantz worked out a deal with my boss. Also, the literature that I have doesn't have a price labeled for the lights, but I think that you have to buy them quantities of 100 (there is a 116 in this sign our rep hooked us up with some lights laying around their warehouse).

The brand is JT LED and these lights were at the same brightness as the Sloan's (I saw the comparison). I also know that this brand was considerably cheaper than Sloan my sales rep mentioned that all of his clients are buying this brand now, and seem to be happy with it's light quality and durability. Supposedly the can get them for such a good price because they are able to cut out the middle man importing these from China.

The supplier is N.Glantz and Son (http://www.nglantz.com/) if you contact their site you should be able to get in contact with someone that can meet you in your area. If you aren't getting help from them then ask to speak to Angelo Pastrana, he is our sales guy in our area. But, he should be able to get you some help if you really need it.

Sorry that I couldn't have been more exact with the price, but I know the price is supposed to be very good because of their importing situation.

[myxpykalix]

http://www.superbrightleds.com
http://www.ledworldlighting.com/
http://www.creativelightings.com/

here are a few google led lighting and you will find tons. LED lighting is relatively inexpensive and what i like is that it is bright and very long lasting 30,000 hours average.

[joe]

We purchase Sloans for $14.00 a running foot. The transormers are about $50.00 each and push approx 30'. I chose this vendor because the lights were smaller and closer together. That gave us one extra light per foot. There may a better product but this was what I found.

Working with LED's is very easy.

Joe crumley
www.normansign.com (http://www.normansign.com)

[joe]

Here are a few snaps showing our latest LED work. I'm look forward to photographing the finished sign with waterfalls this coming week. At this time we are making a 32' top cap from eps foam. There are four 8' sections 3' wide. At this time we're coating them out with epoxy. The traditional caps are made from concrete.

[sailfl]

Joe

Very nice but the second group of images don't open.

[ckurak]

Nils,

The second group is labeled "Attached Images" whereas the first is labeled "Attached Thumbnails." So, I am guessing that Images are already at their maximum size and Thumbnails can be opened to a larger size.

This is probably done by the forum software automatically.

Joe,

Nice work as always. Please keep sharing. And, we promise to either a) keep learning, and/or b) stay in awe. :D

Charles

[joe]

1043610435[ATTACH]10437

Thanks fellows.

I didn't know the second set of images weren't opening. They are ok on this end.

Charles, you are probably right about the reason they didn't show up. I've been reducing my images the old way. I guess this isn't necessary.

I'm not fond of the forum's changes. Lets see what happens to these.

Naw, it's too much trouble. Where's the towell to throw in.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[cartar929]

Joe, looks really good and would love to see the cap.

Did you use modern masters gold for the letters?
Also, it looked liked from one of your pictures that your letters have a slight horizontal texture in them if that is the case it looks pretty cool.

[joe]

Thanks Carter,

I posted my progress back in April of this year under the topic of "Mica & Led's"

Yes, there is texture on the letters. I used a large stepover on the 3D path. This has become a large selling item. I discovered this affect by trying to save time with 3d routing. Give it a try. It's a very quick 3D process.

Like you I like MM products but I don't feel comfortable using them on this kind of project. These letters need to be stable for years. Since MM is a new product there isn't a track record. Also, Mica is much brighter.
My technique requires a topcoat with Matthews clear gloss.

Joe Crumley
www.normansign.com (http://www.normansign.com)

[ckurak]

Yes, there is texture on the letters. I used a large stepover on the 3D path. This has become a large selling item. I discovered this affect by trying to save time with 3d routing.

You have to love this. You save time, and it becomes a wanted feature.

I had a similar experience with trying to use a very fine step-over on a flat background in-between some 3d carvings on a panel. I could not get it perfectly flat. End mills left ridges. Ball noses left ridges. Nothing worked.

Then I use a large ball nose with a "hand carved" texture that is built into the Vectric software for the background area. Everyone, and I mean everyone, that sees the carved panel either comments on the background texture, or wants to run their fingers across it, or both.

So, I saved time, eliminated some very annoying, almost impossible, sanding, and increased the perceived value of my product.

Joe,

Thanks for sharing the idea, why you got there, and how it works. Really! THANK YOU. :D

[mims]

Joe, I did the same thing on some large HDU letters for a sign company.. used a bigger stepover than I felt comfortable with and took them to their shop and was talking about how long it might take their shop guy to sand them smooth (or if they wanted to do them again but use more time) and the boss loved the 'texture'. Since I had nested the letters all over the board, each letter had a slight different angle of texture. He sells it as a feature now..

[joe]

Good for you fellows.


I'm glad to see experimentation going on. As you know, it helps to get comfortable to failures but when things go right, and you have a brand new technique the mistakes don't feel so bad. One of my ventures several years ago was to carve a large 3D eagle with a 2” V bit. It came out exactly as I wanted. From there I continued on with the experiments.


It makes my day to see you guys working outside the box


Here is one of first "Step Ove"r techniques. The surface was Sculpt Nouveau using several different metals like Copper, Brass and Iron. I didn't know what I had for a couple of days since this is an oxidizing process

Keep up the good work

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[cartar929]

Joe, I am not aware of how mica is used in your paint, and would like to know a little more about this technique.

I gave the post you mentioned a quick read through and still have some questions about it. Do you happen to have a few pictures or website for reference on this technique?

The last picture you posted looks awesome.

[joe]

C.

Here's a quick Mica overview.

This is a stable, non fading earth mineral. It's UV stable and relative inexpensive. www.letterheadsignsupply.com (http://www.letterheadsignsupply.com) has a starter kit that's well worth the money. With the price of gold going through the roof, mica is becoming more interesting.

There are two methods of application. It can be applied over gold size or mixed directly in automotive clear and sprayed like paint. In my opinion, it's very hard for the untrained eye to tell mica from gold. The darker golds are more like the real thing. I like Maya Gold Mica best.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[cartar929]

Thanks for the info, the starter kit seems like a practical way to get familiar with this product.

Do you prefer to flash guild it or spray it on?

[waynelocke]

I don't seem to be able to find mica, maya gold mica or a starter kit on the Letterhead site.

[chiloquinruss]

Wayne, I couldn't find it on the website either, but. Download their catalog and look on page 23 for mica info. Russ

[cartar929]

you need to search "mica powders" or go here: http://www.letterheadsignsupply.com/commercecgi/commerce.cgi?cart_id=1259759894.8154&product=Glass&pid=0309

[curtiss]

Is there a given light spacing in inches that is used behind lettering ??

Would the "Christmas" type LEDs work for some items or is there an advantage to the lower voltage LED lights ?

[wcsg]

I would STRONGLY suggest staying away from JT LED from N.Glantz. Their not that bright for the money you pay and their not constant current. Depending on who's power supply and what the DC voltage out is, you can kill that system pretty fast.

If you want just as cheap LED's but better in brightness and more white, then Try AA LED's new Blazer HD Led's. They are Nichia chips from Japan and their constant current. This means no mattr if you give them 10v to 13+, it will take it and run on even brightness, unlike constant voltage LED's

If you want high grade LED's for small projects use YYZ systems, larger use Axiom LED.

Either way, no matter what LED's you use, use Axiom Power sources. They have an exterior adjustable DC out set screw for 10v to 16v DC. This way if you are using non-constant current LED's you can make sure the DC output is set to exactly 12V. I've seen PS's range from 12.01 to 12.60DC. The smallest fraction can kill a system. Axiom power supplies are only $35.00. for a 60 watt.

I'm not saying the above for nothing or the sake of promotion, I test this stuff and all others on the market for signs and have been or coming up two years.


AA LED Link (http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4021-eeled/)

YYZ Link (http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3731-yyz-systems-inc/)

Axiom Link (http://www.thesignsyndicate.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3733-axiom-nz/)


Good Luck!!!

[joe]

Curtis,

I don't believe there is a formula to tell you how far off letters should stand away from a wall. That depends on the color and texture of the wall and how many LED's you are using. There's a considerable difference in Lumens with each manufacturers products. A good rule of thumb would approx an inch.

On this project I had a darker stacked stone to deal with. For that reason I cut the 1/2" thick plex on a 45 degree bevel one inch larger that the letter. I wanted the light to shoot out to the side as well as a little wash.. I was surpirsed at how much light and brilliance we ended up with. I was pleasently amazed.

When doing a project like this, at this scale, for the first time I was sweating bullets. I had never used this much Mica nor had I ever wired up the LED's. The truth is my assistant Ron did all the wiring.

Joe crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[cartar929]

wscg- I appreciate the info. I will have to keep that in mind and ask my sales rep about that, I'll have to keep an eye on these letters then.

I found the letters to be pretty bright but then again this was really my first project using them. I haven't seen it at night, but my boss did and he said that they were extremely bright, so I am not sure how much brighter I really want them, unless of course it needs to be seen from really far away.

Your info was great and am I glad you weighed in.

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For my project I off set the letters two inches. I just made a judgment call on it after testing the lights inside and seeing how powerful the bounce back was off of an object. If there is a formula that would be good to know, but I don't know of one, and haven't looked for one either though.

[ron_churches]

Hi,

I have a smaller project that I'm considering using LED lights with. I was hoping to do some dimensional letters similar to Carter's in this post. However, in my situation, the sign is located far away from the building near the road. We can't run power to the sign because of the distance and are considering using a solar collector and batteries to power the sign for 7 or 8 hours each night. I have questions regarding what type of LEDs to use (module or strip) , how to lay out the LEDs in the pocket on the reverse side of the letter, and whether or not a backing is needed to diffuse the light in order to get a soft glow on the sign face. The characters are only 13.5" tall with a 3" stroke to be stud mounted to a face made of 5/4 X 6" rough cut cedar to match the existing signage. Any suggestions you guys might have are greatly appreciated.

Ron

[cartar929]

I'm not too sure about the lighting options for a solar powered option. But, if your letters are small you more than likely want to use the strips. Based on what you described below I think that your letters are big enough modules, if you are sure ask the sales rep for a sample or dimensions of the module size.

As far as the backing goes, I know it is recommended, but I don't have one on mine. The light bounces directly off of the building in the image that I showed.

I would like to see what you are thinking about using for the solar led option.

[curtiss]

Is there a "lumens per foot per distance" chart somewhere for LED's.... or some other "rule of thumb" to go by" ???

I assume the lumens needed depend on how far the sign is from the viewer.

I have tried a few Sloan LED's but the local supplier may not restock them for some reason. Is there a distrubutor in Oklahoma ??