Onion skin trouble

[chunkstyle]

Anyone else cutting curves on cabinet parts and having issues with the onion skin tool path?
This started happening about a month ago and I have been unable to get it resolved with TWD.
Curve gets broken up as segmented lines on the onion skin pass. Tool path is all herky Jerky.
Using imported DXF from Turbo. Been doing this for a few years now and never saw this issue. Cut parts out with curves and never saw it neither. Can't figure it out and neither can TWD. Any ideas?

[chunkstyle]

Should also add that the machine (prs Standard) is cutting 2 passes at .37" in .75" material. Both .37" passes run thru the curves without issue. Just the onion skin get's broken up.
TWD says they don't see what I have been dealing with when they look at the files.

[paul_z]

Tim,

You may have exploded ... literally. Go into turbocad and define a circle. Use node edit and you'll see perhaps two nodes total. Then explode the circle. Now you will have many segments which make up the circle.

I had this happen to me on an EM:HE build and just had to live with it because the was no time to fix it.

Paul Z

[chunkstyle]

Hi Paul,

Just checked the arcs in the DXF. Arcs consisted of a start and stop node.
Also, Initial .37" depth passes ran smoothly. Could the link be doing something odd with the twd for the onion skin?

Thanks,
Tim

[chunkstyle]

Would anyone be able to air cut this file thru their link and see if it behaves the same as I have been witnessing? The part labeled 'top' is affected by DXF part editor cuts.

It may help to troubleshoot if it's my Link, machine, dxf, etc...

Thanks for any help,
Tim

[chunkstyle]

Must be something in the link. Just had a Thermwood shop run the same file for me by providing them with the ESJ. job file I created to run on my machine. They ran it at the same depth of cut (.37") and saw no issues with the 2 passes or the onion skin. Problem must be in the E-cab/Link translation. My guess is that there is something not communicating correctly between the Link and the latest E-cab update.

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...
Send it to me, I will run it in the AM and give you a call

[Gary Campbell]

I took Tim's file and brought it into eCabs PE. Then to the contour manager. When I zoomed in and used single select mode, each radius corner was made up of about 16 short segments. I did not make any changes.

I took the file to my machine with my settings. I didnt use a 2 pass to onionskin setting, rather a single to .035 skin. My initial pass jerked and stuttered at every segment, as did the skin pass.

My guess???? The problem is either in the DXF export (settings?) from the cad program OR ecabs interpretation of the circular vectors. Possibly that the circular corners were not defined as arcs.

[kerry_fullington]

Gary,

Here is a quote from Scott Vaal at Thermwood about a similar .dxf problem someone was having.


The dxf's that you posted have polylines and light weight polylines in them. These will get converted (on import to eCabinets) into many small lines and creates unnecessary overhead. We recommend that dxf files only contain lines and arc/circles.

This is why I try to draw most everything in eCabinets. It eliminates these problems importing .dxf files.

[Gary Campbell]

Kerry...
Personally I have taken your advice and have had better luck cutting with eCabs generated geometries. I have also spoken on the phone to Tim and passed your recommendation along. He made the point (and I find it hard to disagree) that eCabs line drawing tools are very weak and take much longer to use that most CAD or in my case, CAD/CAM software tools.

This I am sure is a product of (we) being more familiar with these apps than eCabs. That said, eCabs does allow DXF import, so why wouldnt we expect that it would work? Or as Tim says, why did it work a couple months ago and not now?

[kerry_fullington]

Gary,

The .dxf import will work as long as you follow Scott's suggestion that they only include Lines and arcs. No polylines, splines etc. If an arc or circle in your .dxf file is segmented then the control will look at each segment as a straight line and cut that way.

I am curious how complicated Tim's .dxf was? Is he creating the .dxf's himself or importing files from others?

I find the cad tools in eCabinets to be great for cabinet work. You just have to get used to them.

[chunkstyle]

Kerry,

No polylines were used in the imported DXF. No Splines either. Nor would it explain why the .37" passes will cut smoothly but not the onion skin on my machine, Gary's near full depth pass or the Thermwood shops not having any issue with this geometry. It was also cutting out arcs and circles on my machine without issues until a couple of jobs ago.

I'm glad your jobs are of a nature where you can rely on the included cad editor in E-cabs. That's not going to fly on some of the jobs I have to do. It would also not make any good business sense to have to re-draw what's already been done for architectural submittals or shop drawings in a proper DXF format. I'm drawing what I'm cutting. Arcs, circles and lines.
(though I have drawn polylines and had them cut out with a THERMWOOD I agree with you and wouldn't advise it).

This appears to be a link issue until TWD can determine otherwise.

[chunkstyle]

Thinking about it some more Kerry, if you have any interest I could send you the job file as well as the DXF to see for yourself. Try air cutting it and see if your mileage varies any from my results or the one Gary had?

[Gary Campbell]

Kerry...
If I could find a way to define arc or line segments as per Scott's suggestion, I would. Unfortunately those are not terms available in my frequented apps.

Tim's Part was relatively simple, about 8 by 12, designed by him.

This last one we have to agree to disagree on. Maybe if I had never seen another CAD program. Nope, not even then. Maybe if I didnt have to constantly have to remove and reapply PE cuts and constraints to simple parts like my web tops. They become unusable when constrained, fillets are applied and cabinets are resized.

My problems are different from Tim's. I gave up on the DXF import. If you can find out the brand of cad program and the settings that it takes to get a viable import then I would try it again. Please leave out Autocad.

[kerry_fullington]

Tim,

I would like to look at the job and file. I can try running it when I cut my next job. I think there is some software available to convert polylines to lines. As I understand it an arc created using a polyline will be segmented.

Gary,

In Intellicad my tool bar has icons for Lines, Polylines and Splines. I just use lines.

I received a tool profile drawing from a friend recently created in Delta Cad. The file looked fine but I had to spend quite a bit of time joining and trimming lines removing duplicated lines etc. to get it to work in the Shape Manager. It would have been much easier to draw in eCabinets.

If this looks like a link problem send the files to Thermwood.

[chunkstyle]

Thanks Kerry,

I'll send the File along with the DXF in the morning. It will be interesting to see if the results will vary.

I have reported this to TWD, along with DXF's, Link settings, etc...

The feed back was it was running fine like the Thermwood shops result Friday. I'm not sure how TWD tests the link as I understand it there isn't a SB on premises. Might explain how they can't see what is happening from my end and now Gary's. Hopefully it will be a quick fix as it wasn't doing this until recently.

Thanks again Gary. Your generosity is appreciated.

[chunkstyle]

Gary,

Not plugging any cad product over any other. Just saying that the Thermwood shop and myself have been having very few issues (counted on one hand at most) using Turbocad. Mostly with lines being drawn incorrectly, mentioned in Kerry's post.

Untill recently, we've had no problems with importing DXF's into the part editor. We started importing DXF's into part editor about 2-3 years ago with good results.

Thanks again,
Tim

[Gary Campbell]

Kerry...
Over the last couple years I have drifted away from the pure CAD apps and have used only CAD/CAM (Vectric VCPro) for design. This allows me to design and toolpath in the same app.

Like Tim, I used to be able to export my geometry as an ACAD DXF from Vectric and Delcam products and get usable geometry in eCabs. This is no longer the case. At present, all export options yield segmented arcs when brought into eCabs. The first time I noticed the "jackhammer" corners from VCPro DXF's was around last December. Prior to that all worked well. I dont know which of the softwares changed, but something is different.

[kerry_fullington]

Gary, Tim,

it will be intersting to see if this turns out to be a Cad problem or a link problem.

[Gary Campbell]

Kerry...
Me too. My guess is that both sides say that the problem is "on the other end".

Tim...
There has to be a way... we will find it. Feeling like the Red Headed Step Child yet?

[kerry_fullington]

Tim,

You can send the files to kerry@kerryfullington.com

[kerry_fullington]

Gary,

Tim emailed me his .dxf this morning and when I opened it I found his title block included in the file.

http://www.kerryfullington.com/forum/tim.jpg
I cleaned that up and then saved the file as entities and now the arcs all import into eCabinets as single line arcs not segments. I hope this fixes it for him.

Kerry

[chunkstyle]

Hi Kerry,

I don't know what your opening up the dxf in. Never saw the title block open like that before. Even has the fonts jacked up.
Couldn't run the edited DXF as sent. Open vectors. I would have to re-draw it out. Thanks for the help, though.
From what I can tell, looking at the dxf you altered, it looks as though you may have exploded some groups of lines?
If that's the case I could do similar to the original DXF and run it. This has not been an issue in the past but maybe something shifted somewhere. Lemme know what you were trying to change and test and I'll try it.

Tim

[chunkstyle]

If it helps,

Here's what I'm looking at when I import this and any other dxf into part editor.

[chunkstyle]

Just finished deleting title block in the dxf file. Never had the paper space vectors come over onto part editor but thought I'd try it.
Same results air cutting. Smooth .37" passes. Jittery onion skin pass.

[kerry_fullington]

Tim,

I didn't explode anything I just cleaned out the title block then re-saved the file. I didn't try to cut the file in eCabinets or I would have seen that some of the lines aren't joined.

I cleaned the file up in eCabinets and saved it as a parasolid file.
I was able to cut the file in eCabinets I will email you that file.http://www.kerryfullington.com/forum/tim_02.jpg

[chunkstyle]

Kerry,

Just ran the file usint the x_t file. Imported the File into contour editor. Lines were applied to panel. Went back into part editor. Right moused 'create part using closed contour'. Panel now has the shape of the x_t file. Saved off panel as an assembly. Batched assembly. Created TWD file. Ran TWD file thru Link. Same problem Jittery onion skin. Smooth pass depths. Thanks for the effort, though.
Question: Are you saving the impoerted DXF drawing off as an x_t parasolid file in contour editor?

Put the call in to TWD about the issue and havn't heard from them yet.

Very baffling.

[chunkstyle]

Just an update.

Kerry, you got me thinking about why the arcs on the outside of my shapes were segmented and not the inside arcs in the contour editor. Rummaged around in my head and realized that the outside corners radius were created by using the fillet tool to join to intersecting lines with a specified radius.
The inside arcs were created by splitting a circle.

So....I went ahead and deleted the outside radius corners of the dxf. Created a circle of the proper radius. Split it into 4 quadrants and copied the quads to the corners where the arcs were deleted from previous. Brought the revised DXF into contour editor and the outside arcs are now single lines instead of being all broken up as segments.

Applied to panel, blah blah, and then air cut the file.
The result was a smooth motion on the onion skin at the previous jittery corners cept for a start and stop at the begenning and end of the arc. That is also the case for the inside arcs.

Went back to Turbo and selected all the lines as a group and applied that shape to the panel. Still had the same result. Smooth .37" cut passes on inside and outside arcs. Start and stoppy on the onion skin.

Why the onion skin pass is having all this difficulty is any ones guess.

Again Kerry, thanks for the help. Got me thinking the line issue down to the tool used to create it. Got the how know, just not the why and why now is there a problem with it on the onion skin. Maybe I'll hear from TWD tomorrow and they can better trouble shoot the importing DXF issues.

It's appreciated,
Tim

[kerry_fullington]

Tim,

I just opened your .dxf file in Contour of the Part Editor and erased the segmented arcs you talk about. I then extended the lines and trimmed them and finally used the fillet tool in eCabs to create new arcs that aren't segmented.

I bet you and Gary are correct that the problem is in the link if the onion skin is the only jumpy cut.

It will be interesting to see what Thermwood has to say.

I enjoyed playing with it.

[Gary Campbell]

Kerry...
I have said this before, but welcome to the dark side, my friend. The real deal is all the software developers SAY they can import/export to/from etc. Very seldom works as advertized. Many times its a versionality issue. "We have just upgraded to allow import of the latest and greatest of XXXX brand DXF" What they dont say is that we have just lost ability for any legacy vectors. So goes life! :)

My guess is that eCabs has had a number of version changes and the SB Link has not been updated since last June. In the past the TWD crew were all over bug fixes and often tossed in some features for good measure. Not so in the last 10 months. Hence the Red Headed Step Child inferrence. eCabs and the Link are soley responsible for over 85% of our work. 100% of the commercial. The joinery and cut quality sells any shop I have shown samples to. The Link has kept me in business by allowing me to generate wholesale work that was not possible prior to implementing it in our shop.

[kerry_fullington]

Gary,

I can't blame eCabinets for the .dxf import problem. If you follow the rules, only lines and arcs the files will import properly. The problem lies in the myriad of CAD programs and how they handle things in the quest to be user friendly.
For example, Tim's drawing was created in TurboCad. When I try to open it in Intellicad it just crashed the software. Probably something to so with the title block appearing out of paper space. Via Cad also would not open his file citing errors. Delta Cad opened the file but the way it read the file caused all the arcs to break from his lines.

Your CAM software will be less likely to create the segmented lines that CAD software does. It is writing for a machine. CAD software it just creating a line drawing the easiest way it can.

This is why I try to get people to do their drawings in eCabinets. Tim's drawing would have been a piece of cake to do and he would not have had all this aggravation. I wouldn't want to draw a house floor plan in eCabinets but for creating cabinet parts it is the way to go. If you cut using eCabinets, draw it in eCabinets.

Tim,

If I were drawing your part in eCabinets I would have drawn a circle, split the circle, copied that entity and offset it to form all the arcs then draw all the lines with object snap on and finish by using the fillet tool to form the radius corners. This is probably much the same way you did it in TurboCad. The difference is that my drawing would work in eCabinets the first time. Just something to think about.

[Gary Campbell]

Kerry...
Not looking to blame anyone. I am happy with all my software. I wish they could play together nicely like they used to. Dont know why this changed.

What I do know is DXF output from the 2 major CAM vendors that I use result in unsatifatory imports into eCabs. They both used to work fine. One in particular has not been upgraded or changed in over 2 yrs. It no longer works. Coincidence? I think not.

I am sure that Tim and I are not the only ones that have noticed that vectors created by a 3rd party app no longer react the same when opened in eCabs. Since these components are designed in VCarve, I now toolpath them in VCarve. Recent upgrades to the CAM side have reduced the advantage I once had by bringing these components into eCabs.

[ken_rychlik]

Gary,

I agree with the red headed stepchild treating of link users.

I can't even get an email response from cabinets@thermwood.com anymore. I just asked when the fix for the flip ops cutting climb only was comming. It was back before Christmas that they said "soon".

The sales must not be generating enough income for them to support it, but dragging your feet on updates and not responding to customers is not good buisness.

[kerry_fullington]

Gary,

When did the .dxf import go south? The last eCabinets update was in November of 2010 with build 6 and all this did was extend the time limit on the software. No other changes were made. that would take us back to build 5 which would probably be six months earlier. Has it been broken that long?

[chunkstyle]

Kerry,

I have reported numerous times odd behavior regarding the link and DXF shapes with the onion skin. Maybe it has not gotten worse but because of using it more in the manner I have been used to working in E-cabs with a Thermwood, there is more problems surfacing. Problem with that theory is that I have been cutting roll out trays with the same filet tool treatment that didn'y see this problem some 3-4 months ago. Now I'm seeing it in the same tray type drawn the same way.
ALso, note that the problems were having with the DXF's are Link related and not Thermwood control nest related. Never saw these issues on jobs so part editor heavy it still makes my head spin. All run off without a hitch on the Thermwood. It's only on the Link.
Drawing within the known confines of another cad program is a good thing when speed is an issue. Speed is always an issue. Having Turbo as a plug in to E-cabs was a powerful combo that got me thru difficult jobs I would otherwise have had to find another way to do.
With a 3 year proven track record between myself and my Thermwood outsource shop, running Turbo right along with E-cabs, why is it suddenly becoming more of an issue with the link and not with the Thermwood? Why has it gotten worse? Why should I have to use E-cabs rudimentary cad add-on when they allowed for you to import from more powerful cad programs, providing you stay away from the already mentioned landmines?
It's as though the Link has re-buried the landmines.

[Gary Campbell]

Kerry...
I just looked back in the library to a job that I remember caused a problem in the link. It was a tambour track that was cut into the sides of a large ent ctr cabinet. I remember sending in to TWD the cabinet, an export and a copy of the dxf. They found a small bug and fixed it for the next version.

Bad news is that I found the cabinet in my V5 files. I am certain the file was cut with eCabs V5 and Link version 14 +/-. In my case I dont have a definative time stamp.

I do know that after my move (5/2010) all attemps to use imported DXF yielded poor results. Could be a V6 thing, maybe later link versions. It seems Tim might be able to pin this down more accurately than I.

[chunkstyle]

Gary,

Dug thru some of my E-mail's with TWD and the first one dealing with onion skin issue was 08/10.

[chunkstyle]

Talked with TWD this morning. They asked me to try and air cut the file without reversing the final outline pass in opposite direction. Thinking was maybe the start and stop points are confusing the onion skin on the arcs.
Used Kerry's supplied x_t geometry file for the part editor cuts. Results using an all conventional outline cut (including the onion skin) resulted in smooth .37" depth of cut passes. Onion skin passes have a start and stop at the beginning and end of each arc.
I didn't bother trying to air cut the TWD file that has DXF geometry applied to the part. I doubt it would be any different if the x_t file is not running correct on onion skin.
TWD has requested the dxf, x_t file, twd files and Link settings. If anything gets resolved I'll post back.

[scott_vaal]

Gentlemen,
Tim’s situation here seems to be unrelated to eCabinet Systems, DXF importing, or the ShopBot Link (directly anyway), but rather seems to be that the feedrate reduction being created by the max feed size is falling below a certain % value and causing the ShopBot to default to the ramp speeds and perform start and stop ramping. Here is the call log that our technician Daniel Vonderheide wrote about this issue:

Phone Log:

I worked with Tim on the phone about the onion skin not running as smooth as the depth cuts. When I was able to post out the code from the shopbot link I noticed that the code was the same for the depth cuts and the onion skin pass except for the feed rates. When I had him adjust the max feed size in the settings and the feeds then posted out the same, the file ran smoothly through all of the cuts. We then looked through the shopbot manual and found a section that described how the ramping feature works in the shopbot machine. It seems that if the feed rate falls below a certain percentage of the ramp speed, then the machine defaults to the ramp speeds and performs start and stop ramping. I asked him to contact shopbot to see if there was a way to adjust this setting.

[Daniel Vonderheide]

I would just like to add some more information here. I posted Tim's file that was made with Kerry's x_t file. When looking at the code, all of the movements codes were the same between the depth cuts and the onion skin cuts with the exception of the feedrates. The feed rates in the depth cuts were set at 165ipm and the onion skin was set for 134ipm. This is approx 80% of the programmed feed speed. when the original file with these feed speeds ran, the onion pass was stopping and starting, or ramping up and ramping down, at the beginning and ending of the radii. We then changed the max feed size in the settings from 200 inches squared to 100 inches squared. This allowed the link to output the full programmed feedrate orf 165 on the onion skin pass also. The machine then cut the file with the same smoothness on all passes. This test told us that the code was fine but that the machine itself for some reason did not like to run at the slower speeds. We concluded that it had to do with the ramping values stored in the [VR] table.

Hopefully Tim will comment here shortly as to what he found after working with the [VR] settings.

[Gary Campbell]

Daniel...
Thank you for taking the time to come over here. I spoke with Tim on the phone earlier this evening and gave him some test methods that hopefully will allow him to test and set his ramp settings to his liking.

I also cut the original file, but did not cut the version generated by Kerry. My machine also had the same "jackhammer" effect when cutting the multisegmented arcs. (see post #8) My feed speed was 400ipm. At this speed the segmented curves caused a very violent reaction.

When considering your explanation above, my results add to my confusion. To further confuse, looking at the code for the other parts in the nest, the gcode showed only lines and then gcode arcs at the corners. The bracket had hundreds of lines of code. Each calculable, but nearly unmeasurable. No arc moves were present.

I also took a display panel into eCabs PE, then to Contour Mgr and imported Kerry's x_t. All radius vectors were complete arcs and turned red on mouse hover. I also brought in a dxf from VCarve Pro, and a generic and ACAD DXF from ArtCAM. On mouse hover or single selection mode all radius vectors from the DXF's were segmented. If I selected all of the chain and saved as an x_t, then that geometry was also segmented.

Back in ArtCAM and VCpro I took each DXF to node edit to ensure arc vs curve and then toolpathed an outside profile of each imported DXF and also one from the other APP using the SB arc inch post(s). In each case the cut code was comprised of line moves and gcode arcs similar to the code from the TWD that used Kerry's x_t posted with the Link.

I believe Thermwood is an ArtCam reseller. Can you tell me if you can import ArtCam DXF geometry into eCabs and get unsegmented arcs? If so can you explain the process?

As I stated above, I dont use this process very often, but I do have a good number of specialty cabinet components drawn in VCPro. Occsionally I need to bering these into eCabs as they are needed. I was able to do this easily in the past, do you have any insight why it appears not to work with eCabs V6?

Is there a CAD app that does provide true arcs when imported into eCabs? I am hoping to use it to convert my exiting geometry to be applied to mostly entertainment center seed cabinets.

[kerry_fullington]

Gary


I also brought in a dxf from VCarve Pro, and a generic and ACAD DXF from ArtCAM. On mouse hover or single selection mode all radius vectors from the DXF's were segmented. If I selected all of the chain and saved as an x_t, then that geometry was also segmented.


Send me one of these files.
Did you check to see if the radius in these was segmented before the import? Do you have problems cutting these files?

I also think what Scott and Daniel are saying is that the segmented arcs are not the cause of the jerky movements any way. That was just something I brought up on this thread trying to determine a reason for Tim's problem.


I think the import with segmented arcs becomes a problem when the import is quite complex (like the one I refereed to above that contained around 4500 segments) and this overwhelms the eCabinets software.

Has ShopBot weighed in on Tim's problem?

[englert]

I may be misunderstanding what Scott and Dan provided and I had talked to Dan about this. I believe that the problem was not the geometry, but rather the combination of accelerations on the bot and the reduced feedrates called for by the link for the onion skin. The combination caused the geometry to be segemented by the bot control.

Dennis

[Gary Campbell]

Kerry...
The VCPro version on its way in a few.

I opened each in node edit to ensure they were arcs, not curves or segmented. Yes, as this exact item is the purpose of this thread. They are impossible to cut.

That type of geometry may be possible to cut on a TWD, but no way will it cut on mine. That is the reason we have gcode arcs, I thought. A cgode arc will allow the control software to do a seamless interpolation rather than sending them from the software.

"I also think what Scott and Daniel are saying is that the segmented arcs are not the cause of the jerky movements any way. That was just something I brought up on this thread trying to determine a reason for Tim's problem."

I may be wrong, but at this point disagree wholeheartedly.

I havent seen any thing from them yet.

I think you are either overlooking or glossing over the problem. The problem is the multisegmented lines. This only happens when importing into eCabs. All the other apps I have toolpathed this shape in output gcode arcs. About 15 or 20 lines of code, just like the link did with your x_t.

Heres a screenshot from VCPro;

[Daniel Vonderheide]

I made sure to state that I used the x_t that was sent by Kerry because I was not looking into the segmented line issue but was lookinig at the start and stop issue that Tim was talking about.

Artcam only outputs generic or Acad dxf files in the latest formats which means that it outputs polylines(splines). You can open a dxf file in notepad and see this. If you search for "entities" once you have it open, you can then scroll through the actual geometry segments and see what they are. I'm not sure if there is a converter out there to convert these to arcs and lines. I output from mastercam and have set my output version to R12 so that it will only output lines and arcs. I will look into this more to see if there is a converter or if artcam can change fromats and I don't know it.

[chunkstyle]

Tried working with the ramp settings.
Adjusted the xy move ramp speed to 1.
changed the move ramp rate as well. Changed the minimum distance check down to .001. Tried combinations. Nothing worked with either the x_t or the DXF geometries.

x_t still stopped and started going into and out of an arc in the onion skin pass. DXF jack hammered in the outside arcs in the onion skin pass. Stop and started in the inside arcs.

Called SB and asked them for some assistance on this issue. There looking into it now.

The only thing that I can remember changing a while back was the post processor on the machine.

Tim

"All the dude wanted was to get his rug back....it really tied the room together."

[Gary Campbell]

Daniel...
Thanks for the reply. I was assuming that was going to be the answer. I use VCPro and was trying to see if an ArtCam user could convert my VCP DXF's to something useable for me. The ones I emailed out returned the same result as mine from VCPro. I am sure I will get my machine to cut them.

My guess is that the Minimum Distance to Check setting needs to be made smaller as the eCabs output segments are shorter than the .1 (default) or the .08 (my setting) This may eliminate ramping for thoser short segments.

Once the SB gurus take a peek at this I am sure there will be a good answer. Thanks to all for a great topic and follow thru.

Dennis...
You were posting while I was typing. I thionk there is 1 problem, ie. imported DXF's not cutting properly on the Bot. I noticed, by looking at the code, that it seemed to me to be a 2 part issue. To me... if SB can come up with a setting recommendation that works, issue is resolved.

[Daniel Vonderheide]

Tim, is there any reason that the onion skin pass needs to be slower than the depth cuts? if not, I would turn the max feed size down and let it run at the same speeds. This will at least correct the start and stop issues and MAY help with the segmented issues too. Give this a try again but with one of the segmented dxf files and lets see what happens.

Gary, if you know someone with mastercam 9 or up, they can convert them to the r12 format.

EDIT: Mastercam 9 will only go as low as the r13 format but this still converts the polylines from artcam to arcs and lines.

[Gary Campbell]

Daniel...
I am still trying to wrap my head around the speed thing, as my machine did the "jackhammer" thing at F400 on the first pass. I will have to look into my speed/ramp settings once the SB Team checks in

[chunkstyle]

Daniel,

I ran the DXF last night at the 100"2 setting and it ran the onion skin just fine.
x_t file, also. I will do as you suggest and ditch the onion skin slower speed by doing as you suggest. Seems to be the best work around. Thanks.

Gary,
I set the minimum distance check all the way down to .001 with no change.

Thanks for the help. Hopefully there will be an answer out of all of this.

Tim

[Gary Campbell]

Tim...
One thing left to do... as per Kerry... Draw in eCabs!:p

[Daniel Vonderheide]

Attached are 2 dxf files. Both of these files are of a rectangle with 1 inch fillets on the corners. Spline.dxf was created out of artcam and is made of polylines. Spline2.dxf was created by importing spline.dxf into mastercam 9 and then exporting it in the r13 format. if you bring both into ecabinets, you can see the difference in the fillet areas. I know this does not fix any issues, but I thought I would share this so people can get an idea of what formats and softwares will work with the ecabinet's dxf import funtion.

[chunkstyle]

Tim...
One thing left to do... as per Kerry... Draw in eCabs!:p


As soon as you tell me how to charge the client for it...:eek:

[Gary Campbell]

As soon as you tell me how to charge the client for it...:eek:

And who has been paying for your "on the job training" all these years? :D

[kerry_fullington]

Tim,

Did all this fix your problem?

[kerry_fullington]

I want to address the problem many are having importing .dxf files into eCabinets (discussed in this thread)
I still feel that the problem lies in the fact that your .dxf files are not created using true lines and arcs but polylines.

eCabinets will interpret true lines and arcs just as you draw them but if your .dxf is created using polylines then eCabinets will interpret arcs as multiple segments of straight lines which can overwhelm the software and cause other problems.

Gary and I have been discussing this for several days now and have come up with a pretty good solution to the problem.

Download the free cad software Draft Sight located here http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/free-cad-software/

If you have a drawing created using polylines (eCabinets interprets arcs as segments) then open it in this software, use the select all command to select all entities, and then use the explode command. This will turn the polylines into arcs and lines. Save this as a .dxf. (I use the R12 Version to be safe) It should now work great in eCabinets.

I tried using the explode command on my older version of Intellicad but it would not get the job done. You may try the explode in your cad software but Gary and I have found that the Draft Sight software seems to work quite well.

I was even able to draw a profile in Draft Sight using a spline and explode it (into segments) then open it in eCabinets.

Hope this helps.

[Gary Campbell]

OF course my take on this is slightly different than Kerry's. As a ShopBot operator watching these files get cut, I have a much higher interest level than Kerry, more similar to Tims. Kerry is right, DraftSight does a great job at converting DXF files so that eCabs does not end up interpreting them as segments. For me, this will be a few minute fix when I need to import my existing geometry, drawn with VCPro, into eCabs.

So, to me, the import into eCabs is a non issue. When using CAD/CAM programs many users experience the blues of receiving vectors from a 3rd party that result in more work than its worth. This is just the way it is. IF you want it to import "right" then you must make sure that it was exported right. No shortcuts, period.

Like Tim, I am of the mindset that something has obviously changed in the last year or so. Since VCPro had an upgrade, to me it was suspect. eCabs migrated from V5 to V6, and not painlessly. And of course, SB3 has had numerous versions, all of which I seem destined to try. All are suspect.

I may be wrong, but I now think that these imports were like this all along. Our machines just dont cut them the way that they used to. It seems that when looking ahead to pure X,Y moves, SB3 now ramps down like there was a vertical move next, stops and then goes to the next segment instead of flowing into the next segment. This appears to be more prevalent when cutting the gcode generated by the link.

THis could also be due to my machine settings, but like Tim, I dont seem to be able to change them to reduce or eliminate all this choppy, start stop cutting action. There will be more to come, (at least from me) you can be sure.

[englert]

I might add that the "FREE" CAD software referred to by Kerry also has a MAC version.

This company represents a couple of high end CAD systems (CATIA, for example), so this is probably the step in the door to buy that product.

I downloaded it to my iMac and to a Windows 7 laptop. The screen's real estate is a little different than AutoCAD, but it appears that many of the commands may be the same. If not, it does have a Help.

So "FREE" is good.

Dennis

[Gary Campbell]

As Tim's problem came full circle, to me it was a 2 part problem. First, eCabs has very strict import rules. Lines and arcs only. Many of the CAD programs have an option to export in this manner. Many dont. Vectric products and ArtCam dont, MasterCam does. If you are unsure, import a sample rectangle with rounded corners into eCabs and when in Contour Manager, mouse hover over the round corners. If the whole radius highlights, then you are good to go. If not, then either fine tune the export options of your design program, or follow Kerry's steps above.

Second, there was the issue that these segmented files were cutting on Thermwood machines, but not on ShopBots. The ShopBot software developers have made a few tweaks, put out a test version and it will be tested tomorrow. I am sure that this part of the problem will be also be solved in short order, if it is not already.

To me, either one of these fixes would have solved Tims cutting problem. I noticed it on his file and also some of my own. Has no one else seen this "choppy" cutting action? Tim and I cant be the only ones.

There were a good number of people to thank for a quick resolution. 2 fixes to one problem. Kerry, Scott, Daniel and Dennis from the eCabs side, and Ryan, Ted and Tim on the ShopBot stuff. Good on ya, Guys!

[chunkstyle]

Morning all',

Got home late yesterday and found an e-mail from SB. Had a update to test for the control software that had been tweaked and turned around to try.
Tried it last night with the same shape posted earlier in the thread.
In a word: smooooth!
No issues rounding the outside radius or inside arcs of the shapes when performing the onion skin pass.
Slowed the minimum feed rate to 60"/sec. and re-ran the file. Again, no problems with jack hammering.
Big relief.
I second what Gary said about the quick resolution to the problem. The turn around time was startling. Huge thanks to SB & E-cabs.
I'm also surprised that no one else has come across the problem. Adding a proven cad program to E-cabs, plug in style, was like turbo charging E-cabs for me. Really opened up what I could do with it. It's great to have this problem resolved.

Thanks again,
Tim

[Daniel Vonderheide]

I'm glad that we got all of this figured out. Have fun cutting!!

[Gary Campbell]

I have just finished cutting, 1) Tim's file, 2) my 2 most problematic files and 3) one that I made to exaggerate the problem. All cut perfectly. Like getting a brand new machine! When this version is released, it should be MANDATORY for all SB LINK users

Thanks again to all