Hard finish for HDU

[graphixgarage]

I am looking for a 'hard' finish for a 3D routed HDU sign. I am worried that the snow plows will do too much damage to it this winter. Any suggestions?

thanks,
Jen

[billp]

Try either "Apoxie", or "Magic Sculpt". Google both for details...

[tuck]

This might work too,...not sure. http://www.styrocrete.com/

[joe]

Jennifer,

Perhaps HDU isn't the best choice.

I try to get around it when there's any structural requirements. It's way too expensive, deliclate and doesn't like bolts or scrrews. The problem with epoxy as a hard topcoats is doesn't accept paints well without preperation. It's very hard and paint doesn't stick without coaxing.

My favorite hardcoat is High Build Primer. This primer sets up in minutes and is good for most any kind of paint. It will need to be sprayed on but that isn't much of a problem with a cheap little "Critter" spray gun. $49.00.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/jcrumley1/LilSprayGun.jpg



All of that said, white PVC is often overlooked for signs. Brand names like Centra and Komatex are realily available and much cheaper than HDU. I'd suggest the one inch material. Most paint cover well with primers..

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[tuck]

Well as usual, Joe has cut right to the chase. If you don't HAVE to use HDU, PVC would be the way to go! Just be sure to use up-spiral bits when milling.

[joe]

I'm also quiet fond of a double flute strait bit when cutting out letters from 1/2" PVC. It leaves all the shavings behind. There isn't any need for a vacuum or bridges.

Mark or anyone else wishes to contact me, my current email address is:

jcrumley1@cox.net

[dakers]

I think joe is in the know and always is as you know.

but if you have the doe 30lb hdu would take a good blow.


http://www.imaginationcorporation.ca/
dan SAWATZKY has been using 30 lb to get tougher hdu.

i am trying to study what he writes when i have time.

but Joe always thinks out of the box or he has a bigger box to think in.
i agree with his evaluation and solution.

[knight_toolworks]

Jennifer,


My favorite hardcoat is High Build Primer. This primer sets up in minutes and is good for most any kind of paint. It will need to be sprayed on but that isn't much of a problem with a cheap little "Critter" spray gun. $49.00.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/jcrumley1/LilSprayGun.jpg



All of that said, white PVC is often overlooked for signs. Brand names like Centra and Komatex are realily available and much cheaper than HDU. I'd suggest the one inch material. Most paint cover well with primers..

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)
I thought pvc moved too much outside in the sun? How thin do you have to thin things down for the critter sprayer? I have a gravity fed sprayer that works well for wood type finishes but paint needs too much thinning.

[tuck]

I thought pvc moved too much outside in the sun?

It will if the PVC is too thin and especially if it is painted in dark colors. It will bow up and warp in the sun. However, the thicker products, 3/4" and up, if properly mounted and secured, will hold up fine in the heat regardless of the colors painted. Using 1" thick is good insurance for a routed sign of size..

The one draw back to PVC is that it is just about impossible to sand away any annoying tool marks from the router bit(s). Nobody likes to sand anyway, and there are ways around this problem if tool marks are an issue, like using a textured paint to obscure the tool marks. Sometimes it's a problem, and sometimes not.

30lb HDU is a viable option but it's EXPENSIVE. My local supplier doesn't stock it but it can be had by special order.

[joe]

Dick,

Thanks for the kind complements.

Dan is an accomplished cartoon sign artists. One the best self promoters specializing in "Steam Punk" art. For those not familiar with this movement, it came from the Jules Vern's “Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea”. Everything in that world operated off of steam boilers.

http://steampunkworkshop.com/sites/default/files/image/spws-logo.gif (http://steampunkworkshop.com/)

Everyone on this forum, whether they know it or not, are at the forefront of new and developing opportunities. Having a CNC is like having a cocked and loaded Bazooka. But you should point it in the right direction. Defining markets is the name of the game. It's not just about skill or knowledge of equipment. You've should identify a marketable target and go in that direction.
[/URL]
This is such a fun business and opportunities are open for those who choose the right path.

Joe Crumley
[URL="http://www.normansignco.com"]www.normansignco.com (http://steampunkworkshop.com/)

[tuck]

Everyone on this forum, whether they know it or not, are at the forefront of new and developing opportunities. Having a CNC is like having a cocked and loaded Bazooka. But you should point it in the right direction. Defining markets is the name of the game. It's not just about skill or knowledge of equipment. You've should identify a marketable target and go in that direction.

This is such a fun business and opportunities are open for those who choose the right path.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

That is most inspiring, Mr. Crumley! :rolleyes:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f332/Superfan52/CarvedDoors002.jpg

[joe]

Steve,

When I'm cutting PVC letters 8" or smaller I use 1/2". Larger letters are 3/4". At these thicknesses they will remain flat for years. Do Not use their color stock.

The Critter will spray thicker paint than any gravity fed gun I've used. It's very good with latex too. I purchased one this weekend at Woodcraft.

Now open up your wallet, take a deep breath, and give the money to the clerk. You won't be dissapointed.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

PS: I'm affraid Jennifer got lost in the conversaion. Please let us know if any of this has been of assistance.

[graphixgarage]

I must use HDU for the smaller signs. What brand of High build primer do you use? As far as Magic Sculpt, can it be used over paint as a finish sealer?

thanks for all the great advice. I have a large road sign that I will consider the thicker PVC for.

Jen

[Gary Campbell]

Jen...
Very few coatings will make all but the most dense HDU able to stand up to the snow/sand/rock blasting that UP road signs have to take. Even the best of coatings will fracture with an impact.

Most automotive paint stores have a 2 part high build primer like Joe desribes. They are used as an undercoat for urethane auto finishes (same as the "U" in HDU ) Very compatible, dry fast. Use in well ventilated area. To add impact resistance a coat of epoxy or epoxy and fiber could help. Overnite dry tho.

Where in the UP are you located? And how did you ever get Yoopers to spring for HDU signage? :rolleyes:

[joe]

Jennifer,

One last thought about HDU. It's most vunerable on the edges and corners. You'll need to round them over.

Sculpt nouveau is very tough and can be painted over jsut about everything. Although it has extra long life outdoors, there isn't much stregnth in it as a hard coat.

Precision makes a couple of hardcoats you might want to look.

[dakers]

Jennifer,
the hdu sign you are concerned about and impact problems.
can you elevate the sign, landscaping blocks, raised bed, plantings , etc
to help protect the sign from flying debris from the road?

[billp]

Most surface coatings such as Magic Sculpt need a little "tooth" in order to establish a bond with a surface, so applying it on top of a finish sealer probably wouldn't be the best method...
Having said that, I'm thinking that a finish sealer on top of the Magic Sculpt ( which would still need to be painted) might be a better option.

[graphixgarage]

I am in the Pickford area, south of Sault Ste. Marie and north of St. Ignace. I think for the most part the sign will be far enough off the road to do OK. I just wanted to add as much protection as possible. I will be painting with acrylic to match the other items being used so I may not be able to add a hard coat at all it sounds like.
thanks, Jen

[tuck]

I will be painting with acrylic to match the other items being used so I may not be able to add a hard coat at all it sounds like.


hahaha.......

[joe]

Jennifer,

I'm confident you won't have any problems with the signs endurance or longevity. I have only had two failures with HDU. Both we caused by not having the correct support behind them. The super structure is more important with this material than any other I've used. Twenty years has passed without any surface problems. You have a green light ove here.

Would you please post a photo when you're finished.

Joe crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[magic]

Is there any way we can get a sticky or compile all the info on finishing?

My head spins every time I do a search.

[joe]

Magic,
It's a wide topic and deserves a heading all it's own. For example: "HDU" has a dozen or so finishing techniques and some of are unique. It's important to keep in mind, finishing of signs is in a class all it's own. Cabinets, furniture, and common wood finishing has almost nothing to do with exterior sign finishing.

Most of my work involves lettering brushes, foam rollers, spray guns, latex, enamels, vinyls, and someitmes gold or Sculpt Nouveau, all on a single sign panel. Not mention texturing materials. It's common for me to have a half dozen, or more, techniques involved. The major, #1, factor is longevity. They need to last for years. You've prompted me, to take the liberty, to show a panel or two that involves multipal finishing techniques.

I admire your desire to gather information on the subject. Let us know how you do. And thanks for posting on the topic. It's one of my favorites.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[magic]

All I know is that the critter paint gun works exactly the same way as my 1050's sears paint gun. The cups were mason jars. I finally tossed then when the salesman convinced me that HVLP was the new king.

Why do i listen to salesman?

As far as finishing... I'm sorry but I'll just need to gather info one project at a time. It would take two lifetimes to compile correctly.

[joe]

OK M.

I get your drift. Lets see what you have in mind. Please be more specific and I'll see if I can help. There's nothing as good as a step by step. Lets do something!

There are few carvings or shapes which can't be enhanced by proper finishing. The single most difficult is masking. That topic deserves more posts to save people lots is misery.

One final word. You may see and read about a painting technique, but it's no good unless you acutally do it. There's something about using your hands which makes it indellable to the mind. Otherwise you won't remember.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco (http://www.normansignco).

[graphixgarage]

Here is the first one... still working on the other. I moved the sign back off the road where it wouldn't get damaged.

[COBOB]

That sign is a knockout. Nobody could miss that one. Nice work.

[joe]

Good on you Jennifer,

It's a beautiful sign with lots going on. I also like th massive posts. Would you be so kind to tell us about your process and problems as you went along?

I have more technical information about hard coating for G. Campbell, Bil P. Magic, and others. I didn't want to Hi-jack your topic so I'll open up another thread. Keep up the good work and please post more often.

Joe Crumley
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

[graphixgarage]

Thanks guys! I did the whole sign out of HDU and cut the letting and glued in on. The boat and swirls are Pro Cast vinyl. I also used a acrylic paint to finish the HDU parts. I did not finish coat it. I used over sized posts in order to make the sign seem larger. The city would not allow for a larger sign so I make it 'look' bigger!

JEN