Fact or Fiction

[jimmya]

I had a friend email me the link below, can this be true?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZboxMsSz5Aw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Gary Campbell]

True as can be

[myxpykalix]

what mystifies me is how without taking the thing apart to scan the individual components it can making a functional copy. I would bet that the multi gear example was probably a combination of scans?

Unless their scanner can read "bended waves"? Most scanners will just copy the 90 degree face. Brady would probably be the expert on something like this. But you know a printer like this would be expensive. I'd think it might be cheaper to just go out and buy another wrench?:rolleyes:

[jim_rutske]

Absolutely! I had the oppurtunity to use one a couple times. Slow, expensive, but amazing!

[srwtlc]

A little more affordable version. May not make as strong of a wrench, but... ;)

http://www.makerbot.com/

[larry_r]

Jack,

I think they left out the part where they had to draw in all the internals before they "printed" it. Great printer though and advertising.

[hh_woodworking]

These 3d printers have come a long way the first one I saw was using a corn starch base powder and binder, I made a ball bearing and race all balls were able to move freely around in the race.starting cost for one was about $30,000 for 12"12 format and went up fast from that point. I belive that the gear arrangements was made in solid works or some other 3d molding program. That gear set up is common one used to show off the 3d printers

[nat_wheatley]

The 'Don't believe it?' video response to the video linked in the original post is very good.

[Brady Watson]

As amazing as that appears to be, don't be fooled. There's some serious 'dog & pony' going on there. They don't dare show the raw scan data, or all the work involved in converting the point cloud to a solid. - They also don't show the work to do a mechanical assembly that they can guarantee will work - on camera. :rolleyes:

The technology is amazing to a point. Make that sucker print in a durable metal substrate that can be put into real service and I'll be impressed. Until then, it is a novelty.

-B

Edit - This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvfqoaCw5vQ&feature=watch_response) link shows you the reality of the process.


-

[COBOB]

If anyone is interested, here is a kit for $590.

I looked into them and Brady is right, quite complicated graphics.

Looks like fun though.

[mikeacg]

They make one that prints with chocolate... got my attention!

http://www.businessinsider.com/chocolate-3d-printer-2011-7

Mike

[geneb]

Brady, Ponoko (http://www.ponoko.com) offers 3D print services using a number of different media types including stainless steel.

Boeing has one that prints titanium wing spars. :)

g.

[Rob Gunn]

Two key words here are “replicator” and “simulator”. What is being shown is a simulation of an actual object. It is not a true usable 100% replication of the original. It is not steel and can’t be used 100% as the original. Take a very close look at the outcome, you will see that the spiral on the thumb wheel is very crude with a much courser thread, and the undercut slot that the jaw rides in is not the same as the original. Yes it is cool to see what can be done but as Brady states “There's some serious 'dog & pony' going on there”. I have worked at a company that had an older version of this that would create a simulated prototype part that would give you a “touch and feel” part to pass around a meeting table for the engineering staff to look at but it was not a working usable component. Yes it is cool and I do believe what is show is real, however it’s not creating a real replication and there was a LOT of behind the scenes manipulation and countless man hours to get to the end result.

[myxpykalix]

Rob,
If you watched bradys link, and as you state, there is a lot going on behind the scenes. The big issue i have is that you have a expert at using the software showing how to make the componnents in a relatively short time which for a novice or regular user would be hours longer.

Then like you say, it isn't a fully functional copy. But then when you were a kid did you ever dream about computers, dvds, or internet porn:eek:?
The things that are likely to come in the future who knows...
I would bet that at some point they will come up with binding solutions to make a more stable useful copy process.

BTW..are you related to this guy?:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcflCzZlLcQ

[Rob Gunn]

Jack, I hope I didn't offend anyone with what I stated. I was just trying to pointing out that there was a ton of behind the scenes work done to get the end result. It isnt as easy as it was shown. I do agree that there have been a lot of changes in technology over the years. Like you say when we were kids could we have ever dreamed of computers and the such? Who knows what is to come in a few more years. I can remember talking to my great grandmother and hearing her tell about growing up without electricity, phones, cars, indoor plumbing... In her lifetime, she went from that to seeing a man on the moon. What all will we we see in our lifetime? Just look at our ShopBot, When I was still in school there was nothing about CNC machining, all that was taught was manual manufacturing. Even when CNC started to become used it was only companies that had big money to spend and experts that specialized in that field. Now with our ShopBot we have relativly inexpensive CNC tools in our home garage run on a computer with easy to use software. So simple even guys like us can operate them:D

[myxpykalix]

Rob,
No, I understood exactly what you were saying. I can see how you could scan, for example, a model of a car, but that would only be the shell and couldn't copy any internal workings so it made perfect sense.

And until like you point out you don't see what all goes on in the background to get to that point.

On that same realm, they are working on open source code to be able to use the Xbox Kinect as a 3D scanner:eek:. Don't go out just yet and buy a kinect though. There is more about it in the vectric forum under vectric labs.

[navigator7]

Jack, I hope I didn't offend anyone with what I stated. I was just trying to pointing out that there was a ton of behind the scenes work done to get the end result. It isnt as easy as it was shown.
No Kidding!
I owned a Z-corp 520 3D printer.
There are very few useful products produced by this machine.
The cost to produce anything is exceptionally high.

My cost per cubic inch was conservatively: $7.
Plug that number into any 3D file to be cut on any CNC machine and yuck it up.

My build area was 14x10x8. (That's inches not feet)
Building a useful sign was nearly impossible
The best use for this machine is conceptual imagineering.
But then again, the novelty of building a useless part with no practical value wears off relatively quick.

Any CNC machine with a rotary is ahead of a 3D printer.

[Rob Gunn]

Chuck, you are my new hero!:) With your permission I would like to quote you the next time a customer ask me to design and build something that is totally wrong and useless "the novelty of building a useless part with no practical value wears off relatively quick". Of coarse if the customer has the cash and still wants me to waist his time and money then he must be right...:D

[navigator7]

Chuck, you are my new hero!:) With your permission I would like to quote you the next time a customer ask me to design and build something that is totally wrong and useless "the novelty of building a useless part with no practical value wears off relatively quick". Of coarse if the customer has the cash and still wants me to waist his time and money then he must be right...:D
;-)
Granted ... But if you need a hero, I can forward you names of a few real ones.

Ironically, it seems "printing heros" has made a few owners of these 3D printing machines wealthy.
I'm not a gamer but evidently, many people are!
They want 3D models of their gaming avatar and are willing to spend the dough to get a desktop plaster paperweight that resembles their avatar.

I don't get it. A model surely must cost at least $700 to $1000 just to make it worth while for the machine.

But while we are on the topic of heros....Mine is Elastagirl
http://images.wikia.com/pixar/images/2/29/Elastigirl's_sexy_booty.jpg
I'd prefer a life size model, wouldn't you?
;-)

[Brady Watson]

Hero? The only heroes left come as long rolls containing meat and cheese with lettuce, tomato & onion :D

-B

[wmcghee]

There is actually a process that makes parts in metal powders like titanium and stainless called laser sintering or DMLS that makes useable parts. I don't know how practical it really is but I would say its costly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW-2xaIDtMk

[Rob Gunn]

Now that process is much more useful, you will actual get a usable part in the end. Sill a lot of design and programing to be done but it is useful. Now the bad news, do the math to see how long it will take to create a part. The video said that each pass was 20 micron (um). 20 um = .02 mm = .00079". If you are making a part like what was show that looked to be around 2" tall then it would take 2531 passes. I estimate buy watch the video that each pass for the application of powder was around 10 seconds and I assume another 10 seconds for the laser to do its job (then repeat 2530 more times). Add this all up and you just made a part in 14 hours.:eek: I guess that will give you a lot of time to create the programing for the next part needed? :D

[bleeth]

Well, I guess my Snap-on crescent wrench doesn't feel so expensive any more!!

[navigator7]

I had a friend email me the link below, can this be true?

The thought I took away after three years of owning a 3D printer is......
One day soon, me thinks, all households will own a 3D printer just as most own a TV and a microwave.

The technology is worth paying attention.
What is see is 3D printers that are the ultimate recyclers.
You break a plate, load the broken pieces into the machine and print a new one.
A home owner might be able to print plumbing fixtures, dishware, DoDads of all kinds, simply by loading the machine with refuse from our high tech lifestyle.

Today we have "all in one" or "3 in one" 2D printers.
I don't see the step to .stl, metal sintering, printing ABS parts, and laser epoxy technology "all in ones" as overwhelming.

What is needed is planting the seed, market demand, a stable nation and guts to build it and see if they will come.

I'd sure like to print out a politician incapable of spending taxpayer dollars unconstitutionally.

[navigator7]

Well, I guess my Snap-on crescent wrench doesn't feel so expensive any more!!

Imagine spending a grand plus for a plaster wrench and then watch it get destroyed in microseconds by an errant customer who attempts to use it to tighten a nut in jest?

The world has the production of crescent wrenches down pat using real life techniques.

However...lets say you had a very original idea for a tool! The cool thing about 3D printers is the ability to print half models or molds on the fly so that a real parts can be poured in plastic, metal or epoxy.

I had a live steamer/machinist enthusiast use me to produce plaster models of a steam engine he designed on CAD.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Navigator7/100_1197.jpg?t=1312295150

The problem was, he gave me .stl files that reproduced exactly what he wanted! Despite infiltrating the plaster parts with Z-Corp superglue, the parts broke easily when used as patterns in the cope and drag.
They were one use patterns if that, and a complete waste of my time and his money.

So, I went through his files, split them in half, organized them on a pretend match plate, and created a stronger plaster mold incorporating sprues, risers and runners allowing him to create as many patterns for casting as he wanted using Smooth-On products.

I lost the back end of my front in the deal!

When you think about casting metal, you need draft angle and radius to stop the hot tears.
A CNC with a tapered ball mill can reproduce all but the most exotic molds in free scrap wood, plastic and foam and can do it on a 4'x8' table never mind a 14"x10" microscopic 3D printing build area.

It was during this very expensive learning curve where I determined without any outside help from adults that the 65K I spent on this 3D technology was the mother of all mistakes.

Not that there is any thing wrong with making mistakes.
;-)

[Brady Watson]

Chuck - thanks for the reality check. Glad to see some honesty & grounded reason in this area. Hopefully you'll get an application that is perfect for it so that you can recoup some of your investment. What gets me most about the 'dog & pony' show thing is that the general public perceives the process as being 'just pushing a button' - much like CNC routing. Few really get what goes into the process, and just how much labor and thought is involved.

I go through this with laser scanning. Every model is different and needs different settings, setups and considerations. It's a whole lot more than just pushing the proverbial button & collecting the cash. Sometimes things have to be scanned several times in order to get the 'perfect file' that I am after. That takes time...and time is money. I'm lucky in the sense that many of my customers already own NE or David scanners and understand their limitations. This saves me the time on the phone or email explaining what goes into the process, because they have already invested many hours trying to get what they need.

-B

[dana_swift]

The complaint about costs and impracticality reminds me of the early days of computers. "Who wants one?", they are big expensive, and require much labor to maintain. Also "What would you do with one" was often asked.

Now look around.

Thought the following link should help-

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110728082326.htm

100% printed. That does not mean cost effective (yet.) or anything close, but you can see where this is headed.

Make room in the shop next to the bot, there is another tool coming.

D

[navigator7]

@ Brady,
Yes... my experience was no where near what I expected it to be. It wasn't a complete waste but even failures teach important lessons!
The experience of making a payment and struggling to sell a product for a profit builds all kinds of character. ;-)

I'd be interested in 3D printers if they operated from a blend of waste products so the cost per cubic inch would drop from dollars to decimals.
Waste Trex decking as an example.

@ Dana,
There is no doubt the future is here.
Three years after I purchased my machine, prices had dropped by nearly half.
Three years earlier, the cost was nearly six digits.

There is a guy in California trying to make 3D printers that "prints" houses from concrete.
Talk about the mother of all X, Y and Z axis!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yv-IWdSdns

Pumping grout is one thing, pumping 3000 PSI concrete is another.
I betcha the engineer's learning curve is spent on the concrete and not the machine.

The great thing about the free market is demand, satisfying demand by innovation and producing a better mouse trap.

It could be as early as tomorrow...we all will be smacking our heads wondering why we did't think of a heretofore unknown way of using a CNC machine.

[CNYDWW]

Hmmm, how about Direct Metal Deposition (just stumbled upon)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLndYWw5_y8

[ironsides]

Adding to the previous conversations, I've always thought it would be nice to have a 3-D InkJet Printer. With one of these, I could take a relief carving I made on the ShopBot, from a photograph, then place it in the printer and let it paint the whole carving, using the color information from the original photograph. The 3-D InkJet Printer would need to blast/spray ink at a surface that varies in "Z" up to at least .75 inch.:)

George

[myxpykalix]

oh i wish i could recall the link, it was a youtube video, where where they had taken a .dis file(? topographical file) and had carved the topography out of foam then put this on a table with several printheads and it printed the exact colors in the precise locations to resemble the topography based on the photograph. It was amazing.:eek:

[gc3]

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/printing_scanners_vinyl_cutting_plotters/26473-how_does_3d_printer_work.html

take a look at this thread!

[SomeSailor]

I have a friend who owns a ZPrinter (and a ShopBot). They're VERY cool... but not cheap to operate.