Link problem

[davebryant]

Hi all,
I'm making the jump from KCDW to Ecabinets with my first full kitchen.
I have all the blind dado case parts cut in 3/4 and 5/8 perfectly with .374 bit (#11) and 5mm air drill (#31). Now trying to cut blind dado drawer parts from 5/8 and 1/4 birch ply with .248 bit (#12). The drawer material is set up as tool group 2. After manually starting the spindle the spindle will turn off, then jog across the table and come to a crashing stop. Then I get a 'missing comm return' message. It always stops at exactly the same position on the table so I'm ruling out a random comm error. I think I have everthing set up right according to Gary's videos but I must be missing something.

[zeykr]

Missing comm return would imply something physical (wiring?) or electronic with the machine itself - not with the link software.

[davebryant]

There is also the issue of the spindle shutting itself off.

[zeykr]

A call to shopbot would probably be best idea.

In the meantime, Does the spindle shut off when it quits in the same place each time running the link or at other times. When spindle shuts off are the SB3 indicator lights still on for outputs 1 and 4? When spindle shuts off does it come to a quick halt as if you had turned off output 1, or does it slowly wind down?

Is this a new problem or have had it for a while?

Know this question is always asked, but is machine and dust collection grounded properly?

[Gary Campbell]

Dave...
If you are going to be near your machine tomorrow, email me at the email in my signature (red). We can work this out over the phone.

[davebryant]

Ken,
The problem has never arisen before with any other software. Here is the sequence of events:
Shopbot 3.38 opened by Shopbot Link
output 4 on, input 1 off
ENTER SHEET # dialog...enter
LOCATE SHEET...enter
output 1 now on
manually push start button
output 4 shuts off
spindle shuts off and jogs to X23.783, Y23.461
stops very suddenly
MISSING COM RETURN message
try to exit Shopbot
STOP BUTTON HIT dialog LINE 27...resume
nothing happens...file still running but stalled.

[Brady Watson]

Are you running dust collection? Is it grounded really well - as in bare copper wire thru entire hose end to end?

-B

[zeykr]

Working with Gary over the phone will be the best thing.


This part of your sequence bothers me:

manually push start button
output 4 shuts off
spindle shuts off and jogs to X23.783, Y23.461
stops very suddenly

With std shopbot setup, Output 4 should not shutoff when you hit the start, and it should not be moving with output 4 off. If output 4 does go off, the spindle should stop at least on an alpha, both 1 and 4 need to be on for spindle to run.

Will be interesting to see what it turns out to be.

[davebryant]

Brady,
I've been on the phone with Gary this morning and he wants me to check the grounding and the Estop switch wiring...in the meantime I've sent him the export files to look at....really appreciate your time, Gary.
Ken,
Yes, it will be interesting to see how this pans out.

[davebryant]

Brady...I think I will take your advice and run a bare groundwire through the inside of the hose...the hose has a spiral wire in it that's grounded with jumpers, but I'm sure one run inside the hose would be better.

[Gary Campbell]

Dave...
One run inside the hose will NOT be better. Make sure that the end AWAY from the machine has good connection to a known electrical system ground. Also make sure that the alligator clip from the dustfoot is connected to the wire embedded in the dust collection hose.

[ken_rychlik]

The hose with the spiral wire inside the plastic housing that was tied to ground on the ends had worked fine for me. I don't ad any wires to the outside. A wire on the inside will just cause wood slivers to hang up on it and choke up the pipe.

You can try to run the file without the DC running to see if it still does the same crazy stuff.

Good luck with it.

[Brady Watson]

I run bare copper wire inside the flexible hose. The spiral wrap on the dust hose is there for structural reasons & does precisely squat to wick up static electricity, which just so happens to originate from the inside of the hose. I've never had it get jacked up or cause a restriction...If it does, simply pull the wire out, clean & wrap one end around a wad of paper...suck it back thru the hose with the DC, while throttling the line with your hand, and re-attach.

Tie in the DC end to the DC chassis for ground. Attach other end to gator clip on dust foot. Poke wire thru side of hose to attach. This is the SB recommended way of doing it.

If you live in high humidity or don't cut much plastic, MDF or other material that generates a lot of static, then you might be fine doing it another way. For the shops that are having a lot of disconnects, this is once of the recommended remedies.

-B

[ken_rychlik]

Something that just came to my memory after reading the problems again.

This happened to me while running the link on my bot. It would act strange if I had the link open the shopbot software.

If I already had the shopbot software running, then letting the link start the file worked more reliably.

Give it a try.

Considering the problem only happens with the link, I doubt that you have ground problems anyway. Those problems would also be there running other files.

[Gary Campbell]

Brady...
I very seldom disagree with you, but I have a few points concerning your post #13 that I would like to make. These are intended not to make you think like me, but rather to make you think.;)

"The spiral wrap on the dust hose is there for structural reasons & does precisely squat to wick up static electricity"

I agree that the interior flow generates the charge, however, that charge will be equal on the surface of the material. i.e. inside, outside, the total surface. Since the drain conductor is in contact with the material with no more distance to any surface than its thickness, it performs its job to prevent build up very well, both in theory, practical application and in non scientific real world tests. Should this not be true, there would be no reason to connect the "gator" clip from the SB dust foot, which has an embeded wire.

These wire embeded hoses were designed and are sold specifically for that purpose; to drain the buildup of static caused by motion of a liquid (air) thru the non conductor (hose). It is a very simple test to swap out hoses, one with a wire that is grounded, and one thats all plastic on an operating machine, like my planer, for an impromptu test of the effectiveness of the wire.

I also believe that a wire inside the hose is only better than one outside the hose, but not better than one embedded. Also that a wire wrapped on the outside surface, with no more distance between wraps than the tube diameter will outperform one inside the tube, due to the wires consistant distance and extra length.

Care should be taken when connecting a hose drain wire to a DC to insure that it is connected to a portion of the housing that is grounded. All metal on the DC is not necessarily bonded.

Since I need to pay attention to DC hose clogging especially when doing larger sheet cutting jobs, I am sure that adding an interior wire would add to my clogs. Many of these jobs generate 2 or more 42 gallon bags of dust per day.

Also.... some plastics generate negative charges and some positive. Has anyone checked to see if there is a correlation between comm problems and DC hose material? Are our machines more suseptable to positive or negatively charged static?

Has anyone found a better path to ground on the Y car than that provided by the provided ground clip or the Y prox? Since both anodic and powder coatings are insulators they may both generate static and help to isolate the car electrically (from ground). And since the Y car is connected thru 2 sets of roller bearings to the recommended ground, it may not have any other way to drain a static charge from the dust system, (for which there is a bracket provided to the Y car) or static build up from motion.

Sources for my info are: Sandor Nagyszalanczy's "Woodshop Dust Control" and tech documents posted on "electrostatics.com" website. Of course some of my wierd anecdoatal stuff has been thrown in!

BTW:

I am fairly sure that Dave's problem is not static related. There is a known issue (at least to me) with the link when a 60" table width is selected and flipops are involved. His export to me showed erroneous, off the table flip op geometries that could be causing his problem. Not for sure yet, but files that show this have the problem, ones that dont, dont. He is changing out computers and more test results in the near future.

[Brady Watson]

I've had to unsolder and replace FRIED communication chips on PRT boards in the middle of nowhere USA on older PRTs on more than one occasion. I'm just chiming in to say that this method is the only one that I know has worked reliably to alleviate static caused com problems in shops with this type of issue. I can only tell you what I have personally found in the field by actually doing. You're welcome to disagree all you want :D

-B

[Gary Campbell]

Brady...
I am the last one to argue with real world fixes. Especially ones that work while being contradictory to what has been written by learned individuals. :cool:

[ssflyer]

Here is a pretty good article on the grounding issues by a very knowledgeable man. It gets a bit esoteric at times but is an interesting read.

It can be found Here. (http://home.comcast.net/~rodec/woodworking/articles/DC_myths.html)

[Gary Campbell]

IT looks like Dave is cutting normal now. He has changed control computer, which may have contributed, but has not been confirmed as problem. Either way, problem is solved, even if root cause is not 100% determined.

[davebryant]

Up and running again. While I was messing around with all this, at one point when Shopbot 3 loaded, it only showed the position screen, not the control screen. I uninstalled it, rebooted and reinstalled V 3.6.18. Still had the same problem. I was running WinXP and I'm thinking now that something was not right with Windows. Got a new laptop with Win7 and it works fine now.
Kenneth, I'm going to take your advice and leave SB3 open when I run the link. I was in the habit of letting the link open it and Gary also questioned that.
Thanks to Gary and everyone for your help.
Dave

[Gary Campbell]

After spending about an hour on the phone with one of those scary smart electrical engineering guys and pouring over pages of articles on static (ESD), I am retracting my disagreement with Brady over the Embedded wire vs. bare wire in the dust collector hose going to the Bot.

Reason:
My anecdotal testing was done with a wire embedded hose that was loaded with both oil from cutting exotic hardwoods (ipe, teak) and WD 40 used as a coolant/lube for cutting aluminum. This oil coating makes the surface of the plastic hose a conductor and in effect is an antistatic coating. Placing a bare wire inside, I am told, would do nothing to improve that particular situation. I had not paid enough attention to the existing conditions prior to posting about my "real world" test.

How this applies to all:
It is imperative that the imbedded wire in both the drop hose and dustfoot hose be grounded. If you notice even the slightest hiccup, run a bare wire down the drop hose and connect to the dustfoot clip, as per Brady's instructions.

I hereby promise not to disagree in the future, in exchange for about 10 two hr sessions in "the tank" :D (and airfare)

[Brady Watson]

LOL! I've been known to be wrong from time to time... ;)

I only know the trick because that is what was ShopBot's tried & true remedy for issues dealing with static related issues. They did a LOT of testing around communication & what the causes and remedies are to shore things up.

Get your own tank fool! I don't want your cooties! Eww! :eek: 1 hr is all you'd need. There is no time. There is no space. You are just consciousness floating in the realm of nowhere - where thoughts and answers to any question (even SB related stuff!) bombard you from a number of perspectives ALL AT ONCE! That's the truest way to describe it.

-B